Jesus Failed Right?

[Nakosis]

According to 1 Corinthians 1:10–17, allegedly authored by Paul, he attempted to restore Christianity's focus on Jesus. According to verses 12 and 13, he chastised some Christians for stating that they follow him rather than Jesus. And in verse 17, he claimed that Jesus had sent him to preach the gospel.

Certainly, folks don't worship Paul. So Paul did his job well. Can't criticize Paul can we?

 

[Trailblazer]

And Muslin, and Baha'i and Jew too. waiting for their idea of transformation?

Yes, Baha'is believe that the Revelation of Baha'u'llah will eventually transform future generations that inherit this earth.
That is our idea of transformation.

 

[Nakosis]

They are very convincing, only if we choose to listen.

Alao in the time of the Messengers, humanity is at its lowest morals, and human life is meaningless to those in power. As an example, many hundreds of thousands flocked to the Message given by the Bab, but allowed persecution from the wayward divines of the age and their own ideas to diminish that light.

As the years roll on, the wisdom given in the Message becomes the apex of our goals and many embrace that Message. Not everyone will embrace the Messages, but that does not diminish its potential.

Regards Tony

So the Jews chose not to listen?
IOW, it was not the fault of Jesus, it was the fault of the Jews.

Jesus had the intent but people always retain the right to choose otherwise?

If Jesus himself couldn't convince people. What hope does the average preacher have?
I still come back to this idea of whether we can choose what we believe.
I'm not 100% certain we can.
Does God blame those who choose wrong?
I've come across many who claim to have the correct understanding of God.
Jesus being one among many.
Picking the correct teacher seems a difficult task for the ignorant.

 

[InChrist]

I think that it is essential to consider the biblical accounts of Jesus in the context of comparative mythology and recognize that the savior story about him in the Bible is not the first of its kind. There are other stories of Christlike figures that predate both the Bible and Christianity. In light of my own research on the subject, I've concluded that if Jesus (the English adaptation of Yehoshua/Yeshua) lived 2,000 years ago, then he was just an ordinary man and a popular religious teacher whose followers spread embellished stories about him, including modified stories about demigods from Greek mythology and other pagan religions that would make him appear godlike. For example, if you replace the name Jesus with Attis (the Phrygian-Greek god of vegetation), you'll see a strikingly familiar savior story similar to that of Jesus, except the Greek myths about Attis are dated 1250 BCE, which predates Christianity and the Bible (source). You could also replace the name Jesus with any of the other Christlike figures discussed in the articles I linked. There are even more similar myths that parallel the stories of his divine birth, performing supernatural miracles, walking on water, miraculously healing the sick, raising the dead, as well as his alleged crucifixion, death, and resurrection. You will see that the stories about him are not unique, including his savior story, which, in my opinion, is no more credible than all of the other savior stories that preceded it. As shown in the articles, it is just one among many of the same kind.

10 Christ-Like Figures that predate Jesus

The Truth About Mythological Figures Similar To Jesus

Other Gods That Rose From the Dead in Spring Before Jesus Christ

In conclusion, I believe that most of the biblical stories about Jesus are plagiarized pagan myths, demonstrating that these stories are not unique and that paganism had a substantial impact on Christianity. In my opinion, the stories about him were greatly embellished, either copied and adapted from Greek mythology and other ancient pagan religions that his followers were aware of at the time or stories based on hearsay that became more elaborate as they spread. Do you know how you can tell a story to a group of people, and over time the original story changes substantially because some people forget what was said, so they guess by making something up to fill in the blanks, or they add their own narratives to embellish the story? I believe this could be the reason why the stories of Jesus vastly spread from region to region and that these stories about him were greatly embellished to make him appear to be godlike and even the son of the Abrahamic God. Again, what I've stated in my post is my personal opinion. I realize that others will disagree with me.

Yes, others will disagree with your opinion because the accusation that the biblical accounts of Jesus are plagiarized or embellished from pagan myths does not hold up under serious scrutiny.

Is Jesus a myth? Is Jesus just a copy of the pagan gods of other ancient religions? | GotQuestions.org

Is Jesus a myth? Is Jesus just a copy of the pagan gods of other ancient religions? Is Jesus the same as Horus / Heru, Mithras, and Osiris?

www.gotquestions.org

5 Reasons the Resurrection of Jesus is NOT a Copy of Ancient Pagan Myths

BLOG READ SHARE COMMENT

crossexamined.org

“Fallacies of the Theory​

There are several flaws with the theory that Christianity isn’t unique. New Testament scholars Ed Komoszewski, James Sawyer, and Dan Wallace point out several fallacies. The first is the composite fallacy. Proponents of this view lump together pagan religions as if they are one religion when making comparisons to Christianity. An attempt is made to show strong parallels by combining features from various religions.{4} However, when the individual myths themselves are studied, the reader soon finds major differences and very little commonality.

A second fallacy is a fallacy of terminology. Christian terms are used to describe pagan beliefs, and then it is concluded that there are parallel origins and meanings. Although the terms used are the same, however, there are big differences between Christian and pagan practices and definitions.{5}

A third fallacy is the chronological fallacy. Supporters of the theory incorrectly assume that Christianity borrowed many of its ideas from the mystery religions, but the evidence reveals it was actually the other way around. There is no archaeological evidence that mystery religions were in Palestine in the first century A.D. Jews and early Christians loathed syncretism with other religions. They were uncompromisingly monotheistic while Greeks were polytheistic. Christians also strongly defended the uniqueness of Christ (Acts 4:12). Although Christians encountered pagan religions, they opposed any adopting of foreign beliefs.{6} Ron Nash stated, “The uncompromising monotheism and the exclusiveness that the early church preached and practiced make the possibility of any pagan inroads . . . unlikely if not impossible.”{7}

Fourth is the intentional fallacy. Christianity has a linear view of history. History is moving in a purposeful direction. There is a purpose for mankind’s existence; history is moving in a direction to fulfill God’s plan for the ages. The mystery religions have a cyclical view of history. History continues in a never ending cycle or repetition often linked with the vegetation cycle.{8}”

The Pagan Connection: Did Christianity Borrow from the Mystery Religions?

Dr. Zukeran shows Christianity is historical, not mythical, and in many cases the pagan myths are borrowed from the true account of Christ.

probe.org

I believe any similarities between earlier pagan myths and the Gospel message about Jesus Christ are the result and work of satan to corrupt, confuse, and manipulate human thinking even before Christ came to earth. Satan is the ultimate plagiarist of truth, in my view, and extremely capable at deceiving people.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So did God intend Jesus to fail with the Jews at that time?
Do you think Jesus knew?

I do not see it as a failure as it is all part of the plan of God with our use of free will. so yes, I do believe Jesus knew what he would face, he also knew the victory would arrive, as did all the Messengers. One of the things Baha'u'llah asked us to consider is that would a sane person take on such a daunting task? Jesus spent 40 days in the wilderness before taking on the task, Baha'u'llah spent 2 years in the wilderness.

Regards Tony

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Yes, others will disagree with your opinion because the accusation that the biblical accounts of Jesus are plagiarized or embellished from pagan myths does not hold up under serious scrutiny.

Is Jesus a myth? Is Jesus just a copy of the pagan gods of other ancient religions? | GotQuestions.org

Is Jesus a myth? Is Jesus just a copy of the pagan gods of other ancient religions? Is Jesus the same as Horus / Heru, Mithras, and Osiris?

www.gotquestions.org

5 Reasons the Resurrection of Jesus is NOT a Copy of Ancient Pagan Myths

BLOG READ SHARE COMMENT

crossexamined.org

“Fallacies of the Theory​

There are several flaws with the theory that Christianity isn’t unique. New Testament scholars Ed Komoszewski, James Sawyer, and Dan Wallace point out several fallacies. The first is the composite fallacy. Proponents of this view lump together pagan religions as if they are one religion when making comparisons to Christianity. An attempt is made to show strong parallels by combining features from various religions.{4} However, when the individual myths themselves are studied, the reader soon finds major differences and very little commonality.

A second fallacy is a fallacy of terminology. Christian terms are used to describe pagan beliefs, and then it is concluded that there are parallel origins and meanings. Although the terms used are the same, however, there are big differences between Christian and pagan practices and definitions.{5}

A third fallacy is the chronological fallacy. Supporters of the theory incorrectly assume that Christianity borrowed many of its ideas from the mystery religions, but the evidence reveals it was actually the other way around. There is no archaeological evidence that mystery religions were in Palestine in the first century A.D. Jews and early Christians loathed syncretism with other religions. They were uncompromisingly monotheistic while Greeks were polytheistic. Christians also strongly defended the uniqueness of Christ (Acts 4:12). Although Christians encountered pagan religions, they opposed any adopting of foreign beliefs.{6} Ron Nash stated, “The uncompromising monotheism and the exclusiveness that the early church preached and practiced make the possibility of any pagan inroads . . . unlikely if not impossible.”{7}

Fourth is the intentional fallacy. Christianity has a linear view of history. History is moving in a purposeful direction. There is a purpose for mankind’s existence; history is moving in a direction to fulfill God’s plan for the ages. The mystery religions have a cyclical view of history. History continues in a never ending cycle or repetition often linked with the vegetation cycle.{8}”

The Pagan Connection: Did Christianity Borrow from the Mystery Religions?

Dr. Zukeran shows Christianity is historical, not mythical, and in many cases the pagan myths are borrowed from the true account of Christ.

probe.org

I believe any similarities between earlier pagan myths and the Gospel message about Jesus Christ are the result and work of satan to corrupt, confuse, and manipulate human thinking even before Christ came to earth. Satan is the ultimate plagiarist of truth, in my view, and extremely capable at deceiving people.

If the articles you cited were not Christian-oriented, I'd consider their content potentially valid. However, GotQuestions.org, CrossExamined.org, and Probe for Answers are Christian apologetic websites, which, in my opinion, are prone to confirmation bias. The primary objective of these websites is to defend Christianity, so it stands to reason that the authors of the articles would try to dispel any notion that the accounts of Jesus were copied from pagan myths.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So the Jews chose not to listen?

Yes that is basically what happened. A complexity of preconceived ideas veiled the light of G_d that was to be seen in Jesus Christ.

IOW, it was not the fault of Jesus, it was the fault of the Jews.

The fault of all that is not good, is upon our own shoulders.

Jesus had the intent but people always retain the right to choose otherwise?

Jesus had the God given Message; the Quran offers that "There is no compulsion in Religion".

If Jesus himself couldn't convince people. What hope does the average preacher have?

No person can convince another, that is a choice each individual has to make. Any faith that is not built on one's own understandings, is a faith build on sand.

I still come back to this idea of whether we can choose what we believe. I'm not 100% certain we can.

I was born into Christianity, I witnessed Hinduism and Buddhism as a child, as really only saw One God behind it all. I made the choice to be a Baha'i, I made a choice to sign a declaration card, I make the choice to pray and fast. Everyone can make their own choices.

Does God blame those who choose wrong?

Judgement is for God alone to make. The holy books tell us of the results of turning away from God, our world today reflects the warnings given in the Baha'i Writings and more ancient scriptures.

I've come across many who claim to have the correct understanding of God.

There are many Fase Prophets, we have been warned of this and we have also been told how to tell who a true prophet is, again it takes justice of an honest search to determine these matters.

Jesus being one among many.

I acknowledge Jesus was a True Messenger, Annointed by God and who came in the station of the "Son".

Picking the correct teacher seems a difficult task for the ignorant.

Ignorance is a choice. We can choose to pursue these matters in honesty, Justice, trustworthiness and truthfulness.

Regards Tony

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I believe any similarities between earlier pagan myths and the Gospel message about Jesus Christ are the result and work of satan to corrupt, confuse, and manipulate human thinking even before Christ came to earth. Satan is the ultimate plagiarist of truth, in my view, and extremely capable at deceiving people.

Of course, I believed in the devil and demons when I was a Christian, and that was the final vestige of my indoctrination that I renounced. I still think it is ironic that I finally let go of this lingering belief while participating in a thread based on a claim that demons are real and their existence could be proven.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Today he has about two billion followers if not more

Doesn't look like much of a failure to me

Two billion people with the ID card is not the same thing as two billion people who actually use the ideology.

 

[Nakosis]

Ignorance is a choice. We can choose to pursue these matters in honesty, Justice, trustworthiness and truthfulness.

Yes it is. However accepting one's own ignorance is not an easy choice to make.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Jesus spent 3 years trying to convert people right. Only ended up with twelve disciples.

Apostles. Jesus' disciples have been countless.

One of whom denied him, Matt. 26:69-75. One who betrayed him, Matt. 26:15.

And Jesus knew it would happen. He called it. As for the betrayel. That one had to happen. Hows this a failure?

While on the cross he was derided and mocked. Matthew 27:39–44.

And? Public executions used to be a form of entertainment. That treatment was very normal.

Jesus said he came for the Jews, Matthew 15:24. Who he was rejected by.

Not all of them, and initially it was considered a Jewish denomination.

It was Paul who went to the gentiles and started the Christian movement.

This dependss. First it wasn't Paul but Peter, and what do you mean by "Christian movement?" As an organized religion Constantine is mostly responsible for that. Before then it was religion mostly afhered to by slaves, the poor, amd others of low social rungs, and they congregated in necessary secret in underground catacombs.

 

[The Hammer]

But still, the fact that he has billions of followers disqualifies him from having failed

I think it is reasonable to judge a prophetic ministry on the number of followers/converts

Absolutely not. A broken clock is still right twice a day.

 

[Spice]

So then Jesus lied when he said he came only for the people of Israel?

But remember, the Hebrews were the chosen people, the "salt of the earth," the preservers of the Word. Jesus just wanted to pass the seed out to the chosen to plant. The "lost" were the tribes already scattered among the gentiles. I would say he was quite successful.

 

[InChrist]

If the articles you cited were not Christian-oriented, I'd consider their content potentially valid. However, GotQuestions.org, CrossExamined.org, and Probe for Answers are Christian apologetic websites, which, in my opinion, are prone to confirmation bias. The primary objective of these websites is to defend Christianity, so it stands to reason that the authors of the articles would try to dispel any notion that the accounts of Jesus were copied from pagan myths.

And the websites or articles you posted have the motive to attack the biblical accounts; confirmation bias.
Certainly, it’s not surprising that Christian websites would defend Christianity or refute the notion that the accounts of Jesus were copied from pagan myths. What matters is whether the points made are valid and stand to reason. I think they do.

 

[Spice]

Certainly, folks don't worship Paul. So Paul did his job well. Can't criticize Paul can we?

He did establish the churches, and the churches have caused great harm. IMO, one must be very careful in trying to discern Paul's epistles, for they still cause great harm through certain churches.

 

[Eddi]

Two billion people with the ID card is not the same thing as two billion people who actually use the ideology.

Yeah but it's still quite an achievement

 

[Trailblazer]

I think it is reasonable to judge a prophetic ministry on the number of followers/converts

That is fallacious reasoning because it is the fallacy of argumentum ad populum.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, bandwagon fallacy, Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

 

[InChrist]

Of course, I believed in the devil and demons when I was a Christian, and that was the final vestige of my indoctrination that I renounced. I still think it is ironic that I finally let go of this lingering belief while participating in a thread based on a claim that demons are real and their existence could be proven.

Interesting. I was not taught about or indoctrinated into believing in a literal devil. I was not raised that way. I wasn’t involved in a church or know any Christians at the time I began to understand the manipulation of satan in my life and experience experience the reality of this evil being.

 

[F1fan]

Christians have promoted the idea that we should be more like Jesus? He was not a very good teacher/preacher to his chosen audience. Was it part of God's plan for Jesus to fail?

The same God that couldn't create Adam and Eve to be capable of obedience? The same God that tried to solve wickedness by flooding the planet, which didn't fix anything? So then gets a woman pregnant so the boy could be executed to atone for the sins of mankind (that God caused in the first place)? Did God really have to set Jesus up for a painful death to make the plan work, and not just use magic?

 

[Eddi]

That is fallacious reasoning because it is the fallacy of argumentum ad populum.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, bandwagon fallacy, Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

I didn't make that fallacy

I didn't say it is true because so many people believe it

I only said that it means he is not a faliure if the aim is to win followers