Jesus Failed Right?

[Eddi]

Thanks mostly to Paul.
Without Paul I doubt many would have heard of Jesus.

And without Jesus nobody would have heard of Paul

 

[Nakosis]

You confuse the man's life with the story of the man's life.

The story was and still is incredibly successful. It has changed the minds, hearts, and lives of millions and millions and millions of people, ... and much for the better. Humanity in general is far more kind and forgiving toward each other as a result of the story of this one man's life, death, and resurrection. It's really quite amazing that one story could have that kind of impact on so many people over such a long time. But I think that's what happens when people can recognize the deeper truth that the story is trying to convey to them.

Fair enough, the life of Jesus was not successful, however the story created about him was. Of course he didn't write the story, someone else had to.

Perhaps God wants extreme faith so Jesus did his best to leave no physical evidence of his being here. Just a story told buy others.

 

[Nakosis]

I think that it is essential to consider the biblical accounts of Jesus in the context of comparative mythology and recognize that the savior story about him in the Bible is not the first of its kind. There are other stories of Christlike figures that predate both the Bible and Christianity. In light of my own research on the subject, I've concluded that if Jesus (the English adaptation of Yehoshua/Yeshua) lived 2,000 years ago, then he was just an ordinary man and a popular religious teacher whose followers spread embellished stories about him, including modified stories about demigods from Greek mythology and other pagan religions that would make him appear godlike. For example, if you replace the name Jesus with Attis (the Phrygian-Greek god of vegetation), you'll see a strikingly familiar savior story similar to that of Jesus, except the Greek myths about Attis are dated 1250 BCE, which predates Christianity and the Bible (source). You could also replace the name Jesus with any of the other Christlike figures discussed in the articles I linked. There are even more similar myths that parallel the stories of his divine birth, performing supernatural miracles, walking on water, miraculously healing the sick, raising the dead, as well as his alleged crucifixion, death, and resurrection. You will see that the stories about him are not unique, including his savior story, which, in my opinion, is no more credible than all of the other savior stories that preceded it. As shown in the articles, it is just one among many of the same kind.

10 Christ-Like Figures that predate Jesus

The Truth About Mythological Figures Similar To Jesus

Other Gods That Rose From the Dead in Spring Before Jesus Christ

In conclusion, I believe that most of the biblical stories about Jesus are plagiarized pagan myths, demonstrating that these stories are not unique and that paganism had a substantial impact on Christianity. In my opinion, the stories about him were greatly embellished, either copied and adapted from Greek mythology and other ancient pagan religions that his followers were aware of at the time or stories based on hearsay that became more elaborate as they spread. Do you know how you can tell a story to a group of people, and over time the original story changes substantially because some people forget what was said, so they guess by making something up to fill in the blanks, or they add their own narratives to embellish the story? I believe this could be the reason why the stories of Jesus vastly spread from region to region and that these stories about him were greatly embellished to make him appear to be godlike and even the son of the Abrahamic God. Again, what I've stated in my post is my personal opinion. I realize that others will disagree with me.

Not popular among the Jews. Popular among the gentiles perhaps because they were familiar with this kind God myth?

 

[osgart]

The story of Jesus as a substitute for the punishment of sin is nonsensical, and thus a masochistic failure. As far as justice goes it makes absolutely no sense. An all powerful God has to, by limitation of power and necessity of justice, subject His own supposedly innocent Son to extreme torture and execution by human hands in order to invoke mercy upon all humans. Absolute gibberish! As if an all powerful God must come in human form to endure ritualistic, blood sacrifice to atone for others sins is evidence that the Jesus story is man made and cultish.

The message of punishing the innocent for the deeds of the guilty is completely ridiculous, and a major failure of many humans who buy into this.

The message of becoming a transformed nature of goodness and innocence through fear of God because of hell, and acceptance of Jesus' atonement is the poorest message to send to anyone. Christians have no such moral superiority, authority, and position of credibility. The message is a failure, and torments many who had to endure the story of Jesus.

There's a few good YouTubers who are very knowledgeable about deconstructing from the Christian faith. One is Mindshift that's very well done.

 

[Nakosis]

IMV - It is a matter of choice / free will. Love can never be forced on another person. It has to be freely given and freely received.

If I go and help someone, I'm not forcing them to love me. If I had divine power and show folks, I'm still not forcing anyone to love me. Regardless of what Jesus did or didn't do he wouldn't have been forcing anyone to love him. People don't work that way.

 

[metis]

The story of Jesus as a substitute for the punishment of sin is nonsensical, and thus a masochistic failure. As far as justice goes it makes absolutely no sense.

I tend to think Paul was using this as a metaphor.

 

[Nakosis]

I’m sure we will figure it out when we leave this earth.

I view it as what Peter determined, Acts 10:"34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:”. It was an omnipotent act of God to have Cornelius come to Jesus.

As one considers Melchizedek, to whom Abraham gave tithes to which Jesus would be of the same order, he was the king of gentiles. I think I can hold ot the thought that God was interested in all of the decedents of Adam and not just the decedents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob since through him all the nations were to be blessed.

I think I could construct that position without putting words in the mouth of Jesus.

So then Jesus lied when he said he came only for the people of Israel?

 

[osgart]

I tend to think Paul was using this as a metaphor.

A metaphor for what? How?

 

[metis]

A metaphor for what? How?

Jesus being a symbolic example of the Passover lamb.

 

[Nakosis]

And without Jesus nobody would have heard of Paul

If Jesus had done what he said he was going to do, he wouldn't have needed Paul.
If he had been the Messiah for the Jews Prophesied by in the OT then Israel would have been the people to carry his message.

Jesus didn't work out so Paul was his backup plan I guess.

 

[PureX]

Fair enough, the life of Jesus was not successful, however the story created about him was. Of course he didn't write the story, someone else had to.

Perhaps God wants extreme faith so Jesus did his best to leave no physical evidence of his being here. Just a story told buy others.

You don't seem to understand that it's the story that's important. Jesus may never have existed. Who knows what "God wants"? None of that really matters. What matters is that the story awakens something good in us. And that has had a good effect on us, overall.

Why not just be grateful for that?

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus spent 3 years trying to convert people right. Only ended up with twelve disciples. One of whom denied him, Matt. 26:69-75. One who betrayed him, Matt. 26:15.

While on the cross he was derided and mocked. Matthew 27:39–44.

Jesus said he came for the Jews, Matthew 15:24. Who he was rejected by.

It was Paul who went to the gentiles and started the Christian movement.

All of the miracles he did, healing people, bringing people back from the dead, feeding thousands with 5 loafs of bread and 2 fish. You'd think he'd have gotten more of a following among the people he claimed he came for.

Christians have promoted the idea that we should be more like Jesus? He was not a very good teacher/preacher to his chosen audience. Was it part of God's plan for Jesus to fail?

I think it is important to note why Jesus came into this world. It was not to garner followers during his lifetime. The mission that God gave Jesus to was to reveal God to humanity. That mission was accomplished when the New Testament was written and canonized.

Another job Jesus had to do was garner a few disciples. It was their job to go out and preach the gospel message, but they could only do that during their lifetimes, After they died it was the job of the Christians to carry the gospel message far and wide. That took time but it was accomplished because the gospel message had been preached to every nation by the mid 1800s.

Christians mistakenly believe that Jesus claimed to be a king, and that is why Christians believe that Jesus is going to return and rule the world, but Jesus did not make any such claim. All that is Paul.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Jesus came into this world to bear witness unto the truth about God.

It was the destiny of Jesus to die on the cross as a sacrifice but that was not the main reason Jesus came into this world. Jesus came into this world to reveal His teachings which are essentially what saved humanity by changing their hearts so they would love God and their neighbor. Many of the teachings of Jesus also enjoin us to turn away from worldly things and self, but unfortunately those teachings are not what Christians pay attention to because they believe that the cross sacrifice and the resurrection are the only important things Jesus did. I think this is very sad, very sad indeed.

 

[Nakosis]

Jesus being a symbolic example of the Passover lamb.

What is wrong with the Passover Lamb?
Is there something bad about the ritual or eating lamb?

I'm not a fan of lamb but if it's a choice between eating lamb and torturing someone on the cross, I'd stick with the lamb.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Jesus spent 3 years trying to convert people right. Only ended up with twelve disciples. One of whom denied him, Matt. 26:69-75. One who betrayed him, Matt. 26:15.

While on the cross he was derided and mocked. Matthew 27:39–44.

Jesus said he came for the Jews, Matthew 15:24. Who he was rejected by.

It was Paul who went to the gentiles and started the Christian movement.

All of the miracles he did, healing people, bringing people back from the dead, feeding thousands with 5 loafs of bread and 2 fish. You'd think he'd have gotten more of a following among the people he claimed he came for.

Christians have promoted the idea that we should be more like Jesus? He was not a very good teacher/preacher to his chosen audience. Was it part of God's plan for Jesus to fail?

God's plan for each Messenger are for a Day of God, which spans approximately 1000 years. The person and life of the Messenger lay the foundatiin of our required virtues and morals, the Message lays the foundations for the future generations to build the Faiths potential.

Thus we can only measure the success of that Message after many hundreds of years.

All those that Mocked Jesus the Christ can eat their words once they came to know how many millions did embrace Jesus the Christ, as this would be their judgement.

All those that mock all the Christ's, will eat their own words, that is a promise given by all the Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[Nakosis]

You don't seem to understand that it's the story that's important. Jesus may never have existed. Who knows what "God wants"? None of that really matters. What matters is that the story awakens something good in us. And that has had a good effect on us, overall.

Why not just be grateful for that?

That's ok. That's fine. The story has him failing.
Jesus didn't exist, it's just a story of a Messiah who failed to correct the path of Israel.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Not popular among the Jews. Popular among the gentiles perhaps because they were familiar with this kind God myth?

I think that's possible, yes. I do, however, know a few Jews who have converted to Christianity, but not many.

 

[Nakosis]

God's plan for each Messenger are for a Day of God, which spans approximately 1000 years. The person and life of the Messenger lay the foundatiin of our required virtues and morals, the Message lays the foundations for the future generations to build the Faiths potential.

Thus we can only measure the success of that Message after many hundreds of years.

All those that Mocked Jesus the Christ can eat their words once they came to know how many millions did embrace Jesus the Christ, as this would be their judgement.

All those that mock all the Christ's, will eat their own words, that is a promise given by all the Messengers.

Regards Tony

If only he had been more convincing like Paul. Imagine the strength of Israel behind the message of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

If Jesus had done what he said he was going to do, he wouldn't have needed Paul.
If he had been the Messiah for the Jews Prophesied by in the OT then Israel would have been the people to carry his message.

I do not know what Jesus said He was going to do. Can you fill me in?

I believe that Jesus was 'a messiah' but I do not believe that Jesus was 'the Messiah' that was prophesied in the OT.
We know that Jesus was not that Messiah because He did not fulfill the messianic age prophecies, and that is why to this day the Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah.

Jesus didn't work out so Paul was his backup plan I guess.

As I just said in my previous post to you, Jesus successfully completed the mission that God gave Him to do, so Jesus did work out.
Unfortunately Paul caused Christianity to go way off track and Christianity became the religion of Paul, not the religion of Jesus.

How Paul changed the course of Christianity

 

[osgart]

Jesus being a symbolic example of the Passover lamb.

Paul meant it literally, and perhaps symbolically. But definitely literally.

Any way you slice it Jesus was executed on a Roman cross. That fails as being all powerful, and it fails as a sacrifice of any kind.

 

[Trailblazer]

The story of Jesus as a substitute for the punishment of sin is nonsensical, and thus a masochistic failure.

It is not only nonsensical, it is not the reason that Jesus came into this world. See my post #33.