Jesus did not die on the Cross

[paarsurrey]

Further to posts #4, 45, and 54,423,448,496,512,552… and #673 .

We will look into Surah/Chapter No.3 of Quran to its end: [18]

The Holy Quran : Chapter 3: Aal-e-`Imran

[3:171] Jubilant because of that which Allah has given them of His bounty; and rejoicing for those who have not yet joined them from behind them, because on them shall come no fear, nor shall they grieve.
[3:172] They rejoice at the favour of Allah and His bounty, and at the fact that Allah suffers not the reward of the believers to be lost.
[3:173] As to those who answered the call of Allah and the Messenger after they had received an injury — such of them as do good and act righteously shall have a great reward;
[3:174] Those to whom men said, ‘People have mustered against you, therefore fear them,’ but this only increased their faith, and they said, ‘Sufficient for us is Allah, and an excellent Guardian is He.’
[3:175] So they returned with a mighty favour from Allah and a great bounty, while no evil had touched them; and they followed the pleasure of Allah; and Allah is the Lord of great bounty.
[3:176] It is Satan who only frightens his friends; so fear them not but fear Me, if you are believers.
[3:177] And let not those who hastily fall into disbelief grieve thee; surely, they cannot harm Allah in any way. Allah desires not to assign any portion for them in the life to come; and they shall have a severe punishment.
[3:178] Surely, those who have purchased disbelief at the price of faith cannot harm Allah at all; and they shall have a grievous punishment.
[3:179] And let not the disbelievers think that Our granting them respite is good for them;the result of Our granting them respite will only be that they will increase in sin; and they shall have an humiliating punishment.
[3:180] Allah would not leave the believers as you are, until He separated the wicked from the good. Nor would Allah reveal to you the unseen. But Allah chooses of His Messengers whom He pleases. Believe, therefore, in Allah and His Messengers. If you believe and be righteous, you shall have a great reward.

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

Any other poster here, believing in a religion or no-religion is welcome to prove threadbare:

1. Which verses of this chapter have been copied/plagiarized from Christian Gospels?
2. What argument/s have been given from Christian Gospels of NT-Bible or Quran, if any, to prove that “Jesus did not die on the Cross”?

Please

Regard

 

[1robin]

Not sure if this was brought up but I remember reading Acts "back in the day". Some points to the tree;

Acts 10:39 "whom they slew and hanged on a tree"

Acts 5:30 "Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree"

Acts 13:29 "they took him down from the tree"

This just needs clarification. A tree is symbolic and literal in this sense. Long before crucifixion existed in Palestine criminals were hung from trees. It was thought placing them on a tree was a curse upon them and in many ways it was. Eventually, being hung on a tree and being guilty and accursed merged into one concept. Just as countless things in the OT were shadows and types of things made clear in the NT, so with the tree. God used the tree as a sort of metaphor for a later cross. The tree became a cross and Jesus who suffered on it became accursed in our place so we do not have to. The cross was what the trees in the OT were a type of.

 

[1robin]

Jesus may have believed he had died on the cross but may have been in an induced coma?

I have seen criminal medical examiner reports by the score that all conclude no one could have survived what Christ went through. Every contemporary witness said he died. The Roman experts said he was dead and if wrong their life was in danger. But even if he survived no one could possibly actually believe he could have survived being stuck in a tomb without food or water. This is among the worst in a far too long sad list of Islamic arguments which contradict every single primary piece of evidence on the word of a man who lived across a continent and 5 centuries from the events and who was not trustworthy to begin with. There is too much on the line in your case to gamble it all on such abhorrent historical methodology.

 

[monti]

There is too much on the line in your case to gamble it all on such abhorrent historical methodology.

Could you give me an example of what is "on the line in my case"?

 

[1robin]

Could you give me an example of what is "on the line in my case"?

Your eternal destiny. Whether you have one and whether you have chosen the right path to it, if there is one. You don't have a theological title so I can only be general.

 

[Harikrish]

Further to posts #4, 45, and 54,423,448,496,512,552… and #673 .

We will look into Surah/Chapter No.3 of Quran to its end: [18]

The Holy Quran : Chapter 3: Aal-e-`Imran

[3:171] Jubilant because of that which Allah has given them of His bounty; and rejoicing for those who have not yet joined them from behind them, because on them shall come no fear, nor shall they grieve.
[3:172] They rejoice at the favour of Allah and His bounty, and at the fact that Allah suffers not the reward of the believers to be lost.
[3:173] As to those who answered the call of Allah and the Messenger after they had received an injury — such of them as do good and act righteously shall have a great reward;
[3:174] Those to whom men said, ‘People have mustered against you, therefore fear them,’ but this only increased their faith, and they said, ‘Sufficient for us is Allah, and an excellent Guardian is He.’
[3:175] So they returned with a mighty favour from Allah and a great bounty, while no evil had touched them; and they followed the pleasure of Allah; and Allah is the Lord of great bounty.
[3:176] It is Satan who only frightens his friends; so fear them not but fear Me, if you are believers.
[3:177] And let not those who hastily fall into disbelief grieve thee; surely, they cannot harm Allah in any way. Allah desires not to assign any portion for them in the life to come; and they shall have a severe punishment.
[3:178] Surely, those who have purchased disbelief at the price of faith cannot harm Allah at all; and they shall have a grievous punishment.
[3:179] And let not the disbelievers think that Our granting them respite is good for them;the result of Our granting them respite will only be that they will increase in sin; and they shall have an humiliating punishment.
[3:180] Allah would not leave the believers as you are, until He separated the wicked from the good. Nor would Allah reveal to you the unseen. But Allah chooses of His Messengers whom He pleases. Believe, therefore, in Allah and His Messengers. If you believe and be righteous, you shall have a great reward.

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

Any other poster here, believing in a religion or no-religion is welcome to prove threadbare:

1. Which verses of this chapter have been copied/plagiarized from Christian Gospels?
2. What argument/s have been given from Christian Gospels of NT-Bible or Quran, if any, to prove that “Jesus did not die on the Cross”?

Please

Regard

Can you please provide a Hadith or Sunnah to explain the verses you quoted. There is a lot of rambling passed off as God talking. But it is the same crap about evil, satan, punishment, disbelief and sin etc. etc. Was God always incoherent?

 

[Harikrish]

Further to posts #4, 45, and 54,423,448,496,512,552… and #673 .

We will look into Surah/Chapter No.3 of Quran to its end: [18]

The Holy Quran : Chapter 3: Aal-e-`Imran

[3:171] Jubilant because of that which Allah has given them of His bounty; and rejoicing for those who have not yet joined them from behind them, because on them shall come no fear, nor shall they grieve.
[3:172] They rejoice at the favour of Allah and His bounty, and at the fact that Allah suffers not the reward of the believers to be lost.
[3:173] As to those who answered the call of Allah and the Messenger after they had received an injury — such of them as do good and act righteously shall have a great reward;
[3:174] Those to whom men said, ‘People have mustered against you, therefore fear them,’ but this only increased their faith, and they said, ‘Sufficient for us is Allah, and an excellent Guardian is He.’
[3:175] So they returned with a mighty favour from Allah and a great bounty, while no evil had touched them; and they followed the pleasure of Allah; and Allah is the Lord of great bounty.
[3:176] It is Satan who only frightens his friends; so fear them not but fear Me, if you are believers.
[3:177] And let not those who hastily fall into disbelief grieve thee; surely, they cannot harm Allah in any way. Allah desires not to assign any portion for them in the life to come; and they shall have a severe punishment.
[3:178] Surely, those who have purchased disbelief at the price of faith cannot harm Allah at all; and they shall have a grievous punishment.
[3:179] And let not the disbelievers think that Our granting them respite is good for them;the result of Our granting them respite will only be that they will increase in sin; and they shall have an humiliating punishment.
[3:180] Allah would not leave the believers as you are, until He separated the wicked from the good. Nor would Allah reveal to you the unseen. But Allah chooses of His Messengers whom He pleases. Believe, therefore, in Allah and His Messengers. If you believe and be righteous, you shall have a great reward.

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

Any other poster here, believing in a religion or no-religion is welcome to prove threadbare:

1. Which verses of this chapter have been copied/plagiarized from Christian Gospels?
2. What argument/s have been given from Christian Gospels of NT-Bible or Quran, if any, to prove that “Jesus did not die on the Cross”?

Please

Regard

Can you please provide a Hadith or Sunnah to explain the verses you quoted. There is a lot of rambling passed off as God talking. But it is the same crap about evil, satan, punishment, disbelief and sin etc. etc. Was God always incoherent?

 

[Gnostic Seeker]

A man died on the cross. What Jesus really is didn't die. Death is only the cessation of the present form body.

 

[paarsurrey]

Can you please provide a Hadith or Sunnah to explain the verses you quoted. There is a lot of rambling passed off as God talking. But it is the same crap about evil, satan, punishment, disbelief and sin etc. etc. Was God always incoherent?

The Sunnah- are the acts done by Muhammad are demonstration of the verses/teachings commanded by G-d in the Quran, they were done periodically by him (daily, weekly, monthly etc) and followed by Muslims continuously in his life and after him and to date. In this sense they are part of Quran. They are explanation in demonstration. These always existed with Quran and are obvious.

The Hadith was collected 250/300 years after Muhammad.

The Quran explains everything of itself and does not need necessarily anything else.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

A man died on the cross. What Jesus really is didn't die. Death is only the cessation of the present form body.

Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross. It is a wrong notion. Jesus died a natural and peaceful death much later.

Please get through the following summary of arguments, and you will know:

Arguments from Christians mythology/Scripture: [Summary]

1. Jesus did not fulfill Sign of Jonah, if we take the Christian stance. Please read the argument from post # 109.
2. Jesus' prayers in the Garden were not heard. Please read the argument from post # 153.
3. Jesus' words right on the Cross from post # 188.
4. Jesus was on the Cross for few hours only from post #211.
5. God always hears Jesus’ prayers and Jesus’ prayers were heard from post #246.
6. Who wanted Jesus to be crucified? The Jews From post #246
a. And the selfish Christians Clergy for condonation of their hefty sins. from post # 288.
7. Crucifixion was demanded by the Jews: From pot ##301 .
8. Why crucifixion? Jews wanted to prove Jesus an imposter and a fabricator. From post # 315
9.The confusion of NT-Bible/Christian mythology as to the time, date, year of Crucifixion of Jesus. Post #461
10. Bones of Jesus were not broken while bones of other two men were broken. Post #515
11. When the centurion pierced a spear into the side of Jesus, blood and water came out.From post #594

Jesus did not want to die; and why should Jesus die on the Cross and for what?

One is welcome to comment on any of the above eleven points.

Regards

 

[Gnostic Seeker]

Jesus died on the cross because man is born to die. You are correct that he didn't suffer because he had let go of his attachment to even this form. The man Jesus was crucified on the cross. Jesus crucified him and attained final liberation.

 

[paarsurrey]

Further to posts #4, 45, and 54,423,448,496,512,552… and # 681 .

We will look into Surah/Chapter No.3 of Quran to its end: [19]

The Holy Quran : Chapter 3: Aal-e-`Imran

[3:181] And let not those, who are niggardly with respect to what Allah has given them of His bounty, think that it is good for them; nay, it is evil for them. That with respect to which they were niggardly shall be put as a collar round their necks on the Day of Resurrection. And to Allah belongs the heritage of the heavens and the earth, and Allah is well aware of what you do.
[3:182] And surely Allah has heard the utterance of those who said, ‘Allah is poor and we are rich.’ We shall record what they have said, and their attempts to kill the Prophets unjustly; and We shall say, ‘Taste ye the punishment of burning.’
[3:183] That is because of that which your hands have sent on before yourselves, and the truth is that Allah is not at all unjust to His servants.
[3:184] Those who say, ‘Allah has charged us not to believe in any Messenger until he bring us an offering which fire devours.’ Say, ‘There have already come to you Messengers before me with clear Signs and with that which you speak of. Why, then, did you seek to kill them, if you are truthful?’
[3:185] And if they accuse thee of lying, even so were accused of lying Messengers before thee who came with clear Signs and books of wisdom and the shining Book.
[3:186] Every soul shall taste of death. And you shall be paid in full your rewards only on the Day of Resurrection. So whosoever is removed away from the Fire and is made to enter Heaven has indeed attained his goal. And the life of this world is nothing but an illusory enjoyment.
[3:187] You shall surely be tried in your possessions and in your persons and you shall surely hear many hurtful things from those who were given the Book before you and from those who set up equals to God. But if you show fortitude and act righteously, that indeed is a matter of strong determination.
[3:188] And remember when Allah took a covenant from those who were given the Book,saying, ‘You shall make this Book known to the people and not conceal it.’ But they threw it away behind their backs, and bartered it for a paltry price. Evil is that which they have purchased.
[3:189] Think not that those who exult in what they have done, and love to be praised for what they have not done — think not that they are secure from punishment. They shall suffer a grievous chastisement.
[3:190] And to Allah belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth; and Allah has power over all things.

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

Any other poster here, believing in a religion or no-religion is welcome to prove threadbare:

1. Which verses of this chapter have been copied/plagiarized from Christian Gospels?
2. What argument/s have been given from Christian Gospels of NT-Bible or Quran, if any, to prove that “Jesus did not die on the Cross”?

Please

Regard

 

[1robin]

Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross. It is a wrong notion. Jesus died a natural and peaceful death much later.

That is a wrong notion which defies every principle source, contemporary witness, and obvious medical fact we have. It also defies many of Islam's best scholars like Shabir Alli.

 

[sojourner]

Jesus may have believed he had died on the cross but may have been in an induced coma?

Seriously? They stuck him with a spear. He bled out.

 

[sojourner]

Jesus did not die a cursed death on Cross. It is a wrong notion. Jesus died a natural and peaceful death much later.

Please get through the following summary of arguments, and you will know:

Arguments from Christians mythology/Scripture: [Summary]

1. Jesus did not fulfill Sign of Jonah, if we take the Christian stance. Please read the argument from post # 109.
2. Jesus' prayers in the Garden were not heard. Please read the argument from post # 153.
3. Jesus' words right on the Cross from post # 188.
4. Jesus was on the Cross for few hours only from post #211.
5. God always hears Jesus’ prayers and Jesus’ prayers were heard from post #246.
6. Who wanted Jesus to be crucified? The Jews From post #246
a. And the selfish Christians Clergy for condonation of their hefty sins. from post # 288.
7. Crucifixion was demanded by the Jews: From pot ##301 .
8. Why crucifixion? Jews wanted to prove Jesus an imposter and a fabricator. From post # 315
9.The confusion of NT-Bible/Christian mythology as to the time, date, year of Crucifixion of Jesus. Post #461
10. Bones of Jesus were not broken while bones of other two men were broken. Post #515
11. When the centurion pierced a spear into the side of Jesus, blood and water came out.From post #594

Jesus did not want to die; and why should Jesus die on the Cross and for what?

One is welcome to comment on any of the above eleven points.

Regards

Poor, underdeveloped assumptions, not based on a reasonable study of the texts used as "proof."

 

[1robin]

Seriously? They stuck him with a spear. He bled out.

I have read several forensic coroners who testify every single aspect of the gospel account of the crucifixion is medically accurate (even the weird blood/water thing). One of these coroners is so prominent his testimony convicted put John Casey. Every one of them concluded no one could survive what Jesus experienced much less 3 days in a tomb without treatment them he had to remove the rock then get past the Roman guards. The run around talking to others for a while without dying. If I was a Muslim I would never acknowledge that verse from the Quran about the crucifixion. No matter what interpretation you give it (and every Muslim has a new twist on it) Allah looks like an idiot. In all of history there is only one known occasion of anyone surviving crucifixion and he was only up there for a fraction of the time Christ was and had no beating before hand and no spear.

This and 1 + 1 + 1 = 3 are the worst arguments in theological history.

Look up some of those coroner testimonials or if you want I will try and find the links I saved off.

 

[sojourner]

I have read several forensic coroners who testify every single aspect of the gospel account of the crucifixion is medically accurate (even the weird blood/water thing). One of these coroners is so prominent his testimony convicted put John Casey. Every one of them concluded no one could survive what Jesus experienced much less 3 days in a tomb without treatment them he had to remove the rock then get past the Roman guards. The run around talking to others for a while without dying. If I was a Muslim I would never acknowledge that verse from the Quran about the crucifixion. No matter what interpretation you give it (and every Muslim has a new twist on it) Allah looks like an idiot. In all of history there is only one known occasion of anyone surviving crucifixion and he was only up there for a fraction of the time Christ was and had no beating before hand and no spear.

This and 1 + 1 + 1 = 3 are the worst arguments in theological history.

Look up some of those coroner testimonials or if you want I will try and find the links I saved off.

The most compelling evidence for me is the historical relentlessness and thoroughness of Roman terrorism -- and crucifixion is an act of terror. When Rome crucified someone, they wanted him dead. They wouldn't have "taken him down early." The poster simply wants to discredit the miracle of resurrection, in order to make Islam look invincible. Which we all know it isn't.

 

[ZooGirl02]

Well the Roman Historian Tacitus said he was crucified. Josephus also said so. I see no reason to doubt them.

 

[1robin]

1. Jesus did not fulfill Sign of Jonah, if we take the Christian stance. Please read the argument from post # 109.

I know the argument already and it is an official orthodox Christ creed that he did fulfill the sign of Jonah. I have no idea what your talking about. BTW why in the world did Islamic ISSUS scum bags destroy Jonah's tomb? Muhammad revered the prophets.

2. Jesus' prayers in the Garden were not heard. Please read the argument from post # 153.

There is no argument even theoretically possible that can show this. No one who has ever lived knows what God hears unless God tells them and he did not in this case. Jesus was 100% man and 100% God. Only by being so (with fleshly weaknesses just like we have) is he an example to us as men. If he showed up in the same glory he rose with, unable to feel pain, unable to thirst, or fear death what possible relevance could he have as an example for us. Jesus was an example of divine will conquering fleshly weakness. This explains every single garden event in the bible perfectly and has been Christian doctrine from the apostles to today.

Even if I was Islamic I would never ever touch or debate two issues. The crucifixion and the Trinity. Allah left you hanging on both without a single justifiable way out.

3. Jesus' words right on the Cross from post # 188.

I know what his words were but I am not going back to find out which you refer to. As none have any capacity to even challenge Christian doctrine given what I said above it really does not matter. If the bible is true I expect to find Jesus doing exactly what I do in the Gospels. If the cross was not an agony that made his divine will override his fleshly weakness then he did not fulfill his roll as an example to man.

4. Jesus was on the Cross for few hours only from post #211.

Does not matter. The Romans who were there (you nor Muhammad were) knew more about torture than the CIA. The Centurions made dang sure their charges were dead. If they got it wrong, they died. Not to mention every modern coroner and ever contemporary witness agreeing he died. Plus the fact he was in a tomb with care for three days makes your view the worst theological position I have ever heard of.

5. God always hears Jesus’ prayers and Jesus’ prayers were heard from post #246.

Though you said above they were not heard. Which is it?

6. Who wanted Jesus to be crucified? The Jews From post #246

It was the Jews, as every meaningful historical document unanimously declares. The Quran is an irrelevant document that came 600 years later. You can not even prove Muhammad ever read the NT mush less knew anything about the truth of it's claims.

a. And the selfish Christians Clergy for condonation of their hefty sins. from post # 288.

There was zero Christian clergy until Jesus was already dead and even then it would be a stretch to call them clergy for many years after. I have no idea what your talking about and doubt you do.

7. Crucifixion was demanded by the Jews: From pot ##301 .

Is this an argument against crucifixion or one pointing out that some Christians don't know their bible or history. Every single relevant document claims the Jews wanted Jesus crucified. What are you talking about?

8. Why crucifixion? Jews wanted to prove Jesus an imposter and a fabricator. From post # 315

This one is a maybe. Primarily they wanted him to stop stealing all their followers. The imposter thing is a secondary issue at best.

9.The confusion of NT-Bible/Christian mythology as to the time, date, year of Crucifixion of Jesus. Post #461

There is no such thing as Biblical mythology and it is intellectually dishonest to claim there is. The bible is officially classified as historical biography (even in secular circles), NOT MYTH.

10. Bones of Jesus were not broken while bones of other two men were broken. Post #515

Yes that is exactly what happened. Where is the problem. He got a beating designed to get as close to death as possible but not kill him ( I don't think the others got any beating), he also refused the analgesic gall laced wine, plus he got a 4 inch spear blade in the heart just to make sure. No breaking of the legs necessary. BTW this was prophesied generations earlier.

11. When the centurion pierced a spear into the side of Jesus, blood and water came out.From post #594

Yes if you look into what happens medically during a crucifixion the heart at some point goings into cardiac arrest. It builds up fluid in the cardiac sack. When pierced by a spear that sack is ruptured and water, blood, and other fluids will spill out. Perfect medical testimony.

Jesus did not want to die; and why should Jesus die on the Cross and for what?

Jesus flesh did not want to either leave his friend not suffer an excruciating death. However if you would read a bit you will find his divine spirit conquered the flesh and said but not his will but the fathers be done. This was to be an example to Christians who have God's spirit in our heart but still have fleshly weakness. It was to show us that even unto death we can trust God because he will raise us up just as he did with Jesus. It is historical, theologically philosophical, and biblically perfect. It accomplishes every prophecy and ever roll Christ came to fulfill. Writers far better than Muhammad have written entire sets of volumes on just the harmony and perfection the cross represents.

What he dies for was you and me. However only one of us cares enough to respond. The other denies his sacrifice and thinks Allah is just going to hand wave away sin.

One is welcome to comment on any of the above eleven points.

I saw nothing that even came close to even hinting at an argument against the cross and so far you refuse to supply what you think occurred instead. I can see why for two reasons. The Quran is so unclear and so vague about what occurred no one can know and all kinds of Islamic interpretations exist for it and two, that no matter what interpretation you go with it is a disaster for Islam.


BTW I have a question for you. The Quran for some reason thinks hat the Trinity is the father, the son, and MARY. Now for now I don't care whether the Trinity is true or not, how did Allah not even know what it was. No sect I ever heard in Christian history that adopted the Trinity has ever considered Mary a part of it. Did Allah lie or was he just about as ignorant as a 7th century self proclaimed prophet who only saw the statues in a church of Mary, the father, and son would have been? Which is it?

 

[1robin]

The most compelling evidence for me is the historical relentlessness and thoroughness of Roman terrorism -- and crucifixion is an act of terror. When Rome crucified someone, they wanted him dead. They wouldn't have "taken him down early." The poster simply wants to discredit the miracle of resurrection, in order to make Islam look invincible. Which we all know it isn't.

That too. One never really runs out of evidence for the crucifixion. Every single relevant document testifies to it or on it.