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Jesus did not die on the Cross

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Further to posts #4, 45, and 54,423,448,496,512,552… and 633.

We will look into Surah/Chapter No.3 of Quran to its end: [16]

The Holy Quran : Chapter 3: Aal-e-`Imran

[3:151] Nay, Allah is your Protector, and He is the Best of helpers.
[3:152] We shall strike terror into the hearts of those that have disbelieved because they associate partners with Allah for which He has sent down no authority. Their abode is the Fire; and evil is the habitation of the wrongdoers.
[3:153] And Allah had surely made good to you His promise when you were slaying and destroying them by His leave, until, when you became lax and disagreed among yourselves concerning the order and you disobeyed after He had shown you that which you loved, He withdrew His help. Among you were those who desired the present world, and among you were those who desired the next. Then He turned you away from them, that He might try you — and He has surely pardoned you, and Allah is Gracious to the believers. —
[3:154] When you were running away and looked not back at anyone while the Messenger was calling out to you from your rear, then He gave you a sorrow in recompense for a sorrow, that you might not grieve for what escaped you, nor for what befell you. And Allah is well aware of what you do.
[3:155] Then, after the sorrow, He sent down peace on you — a slumber that overcame a party of you — while the other party was anxious concerning their own selves, thinking wrongly of Allah like unto the thought of ignorance. They said, ‘Is there for us any part in the government of affairs?’ Say, ‘All government belongs to Allah.’ They hide in their minds what they disclose not to thee. They say, ‘If we had any part in the government of affairs, we should not have been killed here.’ Say, ‘If you had remained in your homes, surely those on whom fighting had been enjoined would have gone forth to their deathbeds,’ that Allah might bring about His decree and that Allah might test what was in your breasts and that He might purge what was in your hearts. And Allah knows well what is in the minds;
[3:156] Those of you who turned their backs on the day when the two hosts met, surely it was Satan who sought to make them slip because of certain doings of theirs. But certainly Allah has already pardoned them. Verily, Allah is Most Forgiving, Forbearing.
[3:157] O ye who believe! be not like those who have disbelieved, and who say of their brethren when they travel in the land or go forth to war: ‘Had they been with us, they would not have died or been slain.’ This is so, that Allah may make it a cause of regret in their hearts. And Allah gives life and causes death and Allah is Mindful of what you do.
[3:158] And if you are slain in the cause of Allah or you die, surely forgiveness from Allah and mercy shall be better than what they hoard.
[3:159] And if you die or be slain, surely unto Allah shall you be gathered together.
[3:160] And it is by the great mercy of Allah that thou art kind towards them, and if thou hadst been rough and hard-hearted, they would surely have dispersed from around thee. So pardon them and ask forgiveness for them, and consult them in matters of administration; and when thou art determined, then put thy trust in Allah. Surely, Allah loves those who put their trust in Him.

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

Any other poster here, believing in a religion or no-religion is welcome to prove threadbare:

1. Which verses of this chapter have been copied/plagiarized from Christian Gospels?
2. What argument/s have been given from Christian Gospels of NT-Bible or Quran, if any, to prove that “Jesus did not die on the Cross”?


Please

Regard
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Sure. Anybody who does not believe that Jesus was a mythical construct would believe what I believe. This is reasonable, rational and factual.

Of course other could differ with me and believe otherwise.

Regards
You did not answer the question I asked. The Quran says they did not Crucify him not kill him, it was made to look as if they had. I asked what you thought that meant. Since every Muslim has some weird take on what that verse means, I need to know which weird version of alternate events you have.


I do not claims about what every one believes when 1 out of 3 disagree with you and most NT scholars regardless of faith are on the exact opposite page from. Inaccuracies are not helpful, especially since they are not relevant to my question. You say he did not die despite all of the earliest and contemporary accounts saying otherwise. So what do you guess did happen?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
A Christian should be happy and celebrate to know that Jesus died a cursed death on the Cross.

I never understand as to why the Christians burden their own souls with so much sins that for their atonement they want to see their religious leader to die on the Cross.

Can't the Christians stop committing sins so that Jesus don't have to die a mythical death on Cross?

Christians should not be so selfish!!!!.

Regards
Another non answer to my question and one filled with absurdities. No we can't be perfect just as no one in Islam has ever been perfect, nor a Hindu, nor an Atheist, etc......... The issue is not about who is sinning (we all are), the issue is about who honestly admits it and seeks a coherent method by which to receive forgiveness.


My issue, and the one it seems I can get you to address is despite all the earliest information claiming he died and the consensus among NT historians (no matter what their faith is) is that he died on the cross, you refuse to tell me what did happen. History works by finding the best explanation for the evidence we have. You must provide a better explanation for the apostles drastic change after the upper room, the fact that al early sources record his death on the cross, and 2 billion people claim to have met Christ based on faith in his crucifixion. Where is it?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I think I am not the first person to study Torah. If one who studies Torah his nose is grows out, there would be many more people whose nose is already grown longer.

Regards
The Torah has nothing to do with the Crucifixion but Muhammad got it wrong as well.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Then you have not studied the Bible, or you have forgotten it. It started with the Torah. Never-mind.

The nose becomes normal!!??

Regards
I did not mention your nose. I also did not mention the Torah had nothing to do with the bible. I said it had nothing to do with the crucifixion. The notion you can find evidence for a 1st century AD event in a text written over 1000 years earlier is absurd.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I did not mention your nose. I also did not mention the Torah had nothing to do with the bible. I said it had nothing to do with the crucifixion. The notion you can find evidence for a 1st century AD event in a text written over 1000 years earlier is absurd.
Huh. The notion that Jesus did not die on the cross is absurd. Why would he suddenly stop the absurdity?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Huh. The notion that Jesus did not die on the cross is absurd. Why would he suddenly stop the absurdity?

He won't but I wanted to make the absurdity of what is being done as apparent as I could. If you can't stop it, then make the effort as embarrassing as possible.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
I did not mention your nose. I also did not mention the Torah had nothing to do with the bible. I said it had nothing to do with the crucifixion. The notion you can find evidence for a 1st century AD event in a text written over 1000 years earlier is absurd.

Sorry. I checked it was some other poster.

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Further to posts #4, 45, and 54,423,448,496,512,552… and #661.

We will look into Surah/Chapter No.3 of Quran to its end: [17]

The Holy Quran : Chapter 3: Aal-e-`Imran

[3:161] If Allah help you, none shall overcome you; but if He forsake you, then who is there that can help you beside Him? In Allah, then, let the believers put their trust.
[3:162] And it is not possible for a Prophet to act dishonestly, and whoever acts dishonestly shall bring with him that about which he has been dishonest, on the Day of Resurrection. Then shall every soul be fully paid what it has earned; and they shall not be wronged.
[3:163] Is he who follows the pleasure of Allah like him who draws on himself the wrath of Allah and whose abode is Hell? And an evil retreat it is!
[3:164] They have different grades of grace with Allah; and Allah sees what they do.
[3:165] Verily, Allah has conferred a favour on the believers by raising among them a Messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His Signs, and purifies them and teaches them the Book and Wisdom; and, before that, they were surely in manifest error.
[3:166] What! when a misfortune befalls you — and you had inflicted the double of that — you say, whence is this? Say, ‘It is from your own selves.’ Surely, Allah has power over all things.
[3:167] And that which befell you, on the day when the two parties met, was by Allah’s command; and this was so that He might distinguish the believers;
[3:168] And that He might distinguish the hypocrites. And it was said to them, ‘Come ye, fight in the cause of Allah and repel the attack of the enemy;’ they said, ‘If we knew how to fight, we would surely follow you.’ They were, that day, nearer to disbelief than to belief. They say with their mouths what is not in their hearts. And Allah knows well what they conceal.
[3:169] It is these who said of their brethren, while they themselves remained behind, ‘If they had obeyed us, they would not have been slain.’ Say, ‘Then avert death from yourselves, if you are truthful.’
[3:170] Think not of those, who have been slain in the cause of Allah, as dead. Nay, they are living, in the presence of their Lord, and are granted gifts from Him,

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

Any other poster here, believing in a religion or no-religion is welcome to prove threadbare:

1. Which verses of this chapter have been copied/plagiarized from Christian Gospels?
2. What argument/s have been given from Christian Gospels of NT-Bible or Quran, if any, to prove that “Jesus did not die on the Cross”?


Please

Regard
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Further to posts #4, 45, and 54,423,448,496,512,552… and #661.

We will look into Surah/Chapter No.3 of Quran to its end: [17]

The Holy Quran : Chapter 3: Aal-e-`Imran

[3:161] If Allah help you, none shall overcome you; but if He forsake you, then who is there that can help you beside Him? In Allah, then, let the believers put their trust.
[3:162] And it is not possible for a Prophet to act dishonestly, and whoever acts dishonestly shall bring with him that about which he has been dishonest, on the Day of Resurrection. Then shall every soul be fully paid what it has earned; and they shall not be wronged.
[3:163] Is he who follows the pleasure of Allah like him who draws on himself the wrath of Allah and whose abode is Hell? And an evil retreat it is!
[3:164] They have different grades of grace with Allah; and Allah sees what they do.
[3:165] Verily, Allah has conferred a favour on the believers by raising among them a Messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His Signs, and purifies them and teaches them the Book and Wisdom; and, before that, they were surely in manifest error.
[3:166] What! when a misfortune befalls you — and you had inflicted the double of that — you say, whence is this? Say, ‘It is from your own selves.’ Surely, Allah has power over all things.
[3:167] And that which befell you, on the day when the two parties met, was by Allah’s command; and this was so that He might distinguish the believers;
[3:168] And that He might distinguish the hypocrites. And it was said to them, ‘Come ye, fight in the cause of Allah and repel the attack of the enemy;’ they said, ‘If we knew how to fight, we would surely follow you.’ They were, that day, nearer to disbelief than to belief. They say with their mouths what is not in their hearts. And Allah knows well what they conceal.
[3:169] It is these who said of their brethren, while they themselves remained behind, ‘If they had obeyed us, they would not have been slain.’ Say, ‘Then avert death from yourselves, if you are truthful.’
[3:170] Think not of those, who have been slain in the cause of Allah, as dead. Nay, they are living, in the presence of their Lord, and are granted gifts from Him,

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

Any other poster here, believing in a religion or no-religion is welcome to prove threadbare:

1. Which verses of this chapter have been copied/plagiarized from Christian Gospels?
2. What argument/s have been given from Christian Gospels of NT-Bible or Quran, if any, to prove that “Jesus did not die on the Cross”?


Please

Regard
There are no arguments from the NT to prove that Jesus did not die on the cross. All NT texts assume Jesus did die on the cross.

Your nose is, indeed, growing.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
There are no arguments from the NT to prove that Jesus did not die on the cross. All NT texts assume Jesus did die on the cross.

Your nose is, indeed, growing.
Apparently 500 years, hundreds of miles, and the lack of a single eyewitness is just the right ingredients to overturn their historical opposites.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
There are no arguments from the NT to prove that Jesus did not die on the cross. All NT texts assume Jesus did die on the cross.

Your nose is, indeed, growing.
I will last for the last time. If he did not die as a result of crucifixion what happened instead. History nor is about certainty. They are about best explanations for the evidence. You must have a better explanation and reasons why it is better. Where is it?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Apparently 500 years, hundreds of miles, and the lack of a single eyewitness is just the right ingredients to overturn their historical opposites.
With a large dose of dishonesty folded in for good measure.
 
Not sure if this was brought up but I remember reading Acts "back in the day". Some points to the tree;

Acts 10:39 "whom they slew and hanged on a tree"

Acts 5:30 "Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree"

Acts 13:29 "they took him down from the tree"
 

monti

Member
Jesus did not die on the Cross. This is a fact which did happen in real life and Quran does not claim that it is first to claim it.

Does it?

Your thoughts please; anybody believing in a religion or no religion.

Regards
Jesus may have believed he had died on the cross but may have been in an induced coma?
 
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