Jesus did not die on the Cross

[Muffled]

Your understanding of Quran is better than of our friend Redemptionsong. Quran does not mention:

1. That Jesus was not put on the Cross. Quran just mentions that the intended result of Crucifixion (death by way of Crucifixion) did not get accomplished; Jesus' death on Cross did not occur.
2. Quran does not mention as you say that “Jesus went into the heavens at the crucifixion”


Regards

That is not what the Qu'ran says and it is not what happened. Jesus left the body and then the body died. Jesus didn't die because the spirit of God had alreday left but Jesus ended up dead because of the death of the body.

Sura 4:158. It doesn't say heavens but says "Allah raised Him unto Himself" and Allah is everywhere including the heavens.

 

[Sabour]

Yes I believe it does and He was not.

Can you please explain why you believe Jesus peace be upon him wasn't crucified ?

 

[Muffled]

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Was the Paradise of Luke 23:43 heaven or some part of heaven?

The Bible does not agree with the view that Jesus and the evildoer went to heaven on the day that Jesus spoke to him. Jesus had foretold that, after his being killed, he would not be raised up until the third day. (Luke 9:22) During that three-day period he was not in heaven, because following his resurrection he told Mary Magdalene: “I have not yet ascended to the Father.” (John 20:17) It was 40 days after Jesus’ resurrection that his disciples saw him lifted up from the earth and out of their sight as he began his ascent to heaven.—Acts 1:3, 6-11.

The evildoer did not meet the requirements to go to heaven even at some later time. He was not “born again”—being neither baptized in water nor begotten by God’s spirit. Holy spirit was not poured out upon Jesus’ disciples until more than 50 days after the evildoer’s death. (John 3:3, 5; Acts 2:1-4) On the day of his death, Jesus had made with those ‘who had stuck with him in his trials’ a covenant for a heavenly kingdom. The evildoer had no such record of faithfulness and was not included.—Luke 22:28-30.


Paradise — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

When Jesus told the evildoer that he would be in paradise with him, he was simply telling this evildoer that one day, when all are resurrected,Jesus would not forget this man.
Paradise is on earth,not in heaven.
Although Heaven is not on earth,Jesus will rule over the new Kingdom, on earth, from Heaven.This will be so for 1,000 years, and then once all have been made perfect,Jesus will hand over the Kingdom back to God forever.

I believe there is no other paradise than Heaven and the Bible does not say that there is. So in my estimation the Bible is saying that the faithful thief went to Heaven.

I believe this reasoning is fallacious because it takes two separate events and tries to tie them together without evidence that they belong together. Jesus left the body on the cross so there is no way He was in it at burial unless He returned and no scripture says that. Jesus does return to the body at resurrection and technically He would no longer be considered in Heaven at that time.

I don't believe the JW's have the authority to set the requirements for going to Heaven.

I believe he effectively did what anyone being baptized does and that is be repentent of his sins and accept the Lordship of Jesus.

I believe anyone who comes to Jesus for salvation will be found in the Kingdom and the believing thief qualifies.

I believe this type of misinformation is typical of the watchttower society and its publications.

 

[Muffled]

Can you please explain why you believe Jesus peace be upon him wasn't crucified ?

I believe for Jesus to be crucified He would have to go through the whole process to death. In my estimation the two thieves were crucified because their spirits stayed in their bodies through death as far as we know lsince no scripture reports on it.

Since Jesus left before death He did not go through the whole crucifixion process and therefore He couldn't be said to be crucified.

I would liken it to a person being baptized putting on the white robe an approaching the baptism pool but getting cold feet and not going into the pool. The person was going through baptism but he was never baptized.

 

[Sabour]

I believe for Jesus to be crucified He would have to go through the whole process to death. In my estimation the two thieves were crucified because their spirits stayed in their bodies through death as far as we know lsince no scripture reports on it.

Since Jesus left before death He did not go through the whole crucifixion process and therefore He couldn't be said to be crucified.

I would liken it to a person being baptized putting on the white robe an approaching the baptism pool but getting cold feet and not going into the pool. The person was going through baptism but he was never baptized.

I thought your answer would be bible based, something like when Jesus peace be upon him came to the disciples and began eating in front of them and said feel my hands and my feet, this is to prove that he was not dead and therefore never crucified in the first place.

Let me ask you this, as redemptionsong was trying to prove, bible implies more than once place that Jesus peace be upon him was crucified and this is essential part to salvation as you know, how does your belief that he was not crucified affect the "Christian way of salvation"?

 

[Muffled]

You mean you JW's don't agree..
It's plain enough, after his execution Jesus dropped off the evildoer in heaven, then came and went himself a number of times to give messages to his followers over a period of 40 days, sometimes in spiritual form and sometimes in solid flesh and blood form.

"..he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.
“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:9-11)

I believe of course they all agree because anyone disagreeing would be disfellowshipped. At least I have never seen it happen. From what I have seen the watchtower is viewed as the word of God itself and it is far from it.

I believe there is a bit of a disconnect here. Jesus returns to the body and stays on earth for forty days. I don't remember Jesus ever making a spiritual appearance during this bodily sojourn. I believe Jesus is reported as having visited the grave to preach the gospel to the dead while in the spirit but no time frame is given so it makes sense that it was before He returned to the body.

 

[Muffled]

I thought your answer would be bible based, something like when Jesus peace be upon him came to the disciples and began eating in front of them and said feel my hands and my feet, this is to prove that he was not dead and therefore never crucified in the first place.

Let me ask you this, as redemptionsong was trying to prove, bible implies more than once place that Jesus peace be upon him was crucified and this is essential part to salvation as you know, how does your belief that he was not crucified affect the "Christian way of salvation"?

I believe that I go by what the Bible says rather than make up stories to explain what I think might have happened. I suppose yo were looking for this: John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up his spirit.


I believe it has no effect. The fact that Jesus went to the cross is enough reason for me to believe that He loves me. My salvation is by grace through faith that Jesus saves. My past sins were washed away by the blood of Jesus which occurred before the crucifixion when Jesus was whipped, see Isaiah 53.

"What can wash away my sins?, nothing but the blood of Jesus." A hymn of the church.

 

[Sabour]

I believe that I go by what the Bible says rather than make up stories to explain what I think might have happened.

I believe it has no effect. The fact that Jesus went to the cross is enough reason for me to believe that He loves me. My salvation is by grace through faith that Jesus saves. My past sins were washed away by the blood of Jesus which occurred before the crucifixion when Jesus was whipped, see Isaiah 53.

"What can wash away my sins?, nothing but the blood of Jesus." A hymn of the church.

Well sorry to be rude with my question now, but when there is a contradiction in the bible, like when I can quote verses from the bible that make it clear that faith alone won't save a person. What would you do?

For example

And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tempted him, saying,
"Master what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the Law? How do you read?" And he answered saying, "Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind, and thy neighbor as thyself." And he said unto him, "You have answered right; do this, and you shall live."
Luke 10: 25-28
"Think not that I came to destroy the Law and the prophets. I came not to destroy but rather to fulfill. For verily I tell you, not until all things be accomplished shall a single dot (jot, iota or tiny letter) in any way be lessened from the Law. And whoever breaks the least of the Commandments and teaches this will be the least in the Kingdom, but whoever keeps the Commandments and teaches this will be the highest in the Kingdom. And not unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharasees will you enter into the Kingdom of Heaven."
Matthew 5:17-19

 

[Nada]

I believe there is no other paradise than Heaven and the Bible does not say that there is. So in my estimation the Bible is saying that the faithful thief went to Heaven.

I believe this reasoning is fallacious because it takes two separate events and tries to tie them together without evidence that they belong together. Jesus left the body on the cross so there is no way He was in it at burial unless He returned and no scripture says that. Jesus does return to the body at resurrection and technically He would no longer be considered in Heaven at that time.

I don't believe the JW's have the authority to set the requirements for going to Heaven.

I believe he effectively did what anyone being baptized does and that is be repentent of his sins and accept the Lordship of Jesus.

I believe anyone who comes to Jesus for salvation will be found in the Kingdom and the believing thief qualifies.

I believe this type of misinformation is typical of the watchttower society and its publications.

You are incorrect.Jesus was dead for 3 days.He was then resurrected.After his resurrection he was on earth for 40 days before he ascended to heaven.The holy scriptures confirms this.

John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Jesus went to heaven after the 40 days,not before.When he was dead,he was not in heaven.His body was in the tomb.Then God consumed his body like a sacrifice in fire.Jesus was the sacrificial lamb.

Do you remember in the OT how Moses body was consumed by God? Thats what happened to Jesus. Do you remember how God commanded the Israelites in Egypt to sacrifice a 1 year old sheep or goat? They were to kill it,remove its blood and roast it over an open fire with spices served with bitter greens.They were told to cook it whole and not to break its bones.The Israelites were to eat it hastily before night arrived.When they were done eating nothing was to remain until morning.What ever remained left over was to be burned in the fire completely.

This passover meal with the sacrificial lamb in Egypt was the covenant between God and the nation of Israel.This foreshadowed the coming of Jesus Christ.Do you see the parallels?

The Israelites had a literal sacrificial lamb.Jesus was called the sacrificial lamb.

The Israelites were commanded to do this on Nissan 14th in the month of Abib.
Jesus Christ was executed on Nissan 14th in the month of Abib.


The lambs blood was spilled to protect the first born males of the people of Israel.Jesus blood was spilled to redeem all of mankind and he was Gods firstborn.

The unleavened bread the Israelites ate represented no sin.Yeast represented sin.
Jesus was without sin.

The Israelites were commanded not to break any of the lambs bones when preparing to cook it.
Jesus had none of his bones broken during his execution.This was also a prophecy fulfilled.The men on either side of Jesus had their legs broken .The soldiers saw that Jesus was already dead,so his bones were not broken.


Exodus 12:46 "It must be eaten inside the house; take none of the meat outside the house. Do not break any of the bones.

Psalm 34:20
he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken.

John 19:36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken,"


Israelites were commanded to eat this passover meal hastily.Jesus was prepared and rushed to his burial tomb

It all parallels.........


Exodus 12: 5 The animals you choose must be year-old males without defect, and you may take them from the sheep or the goats. 6 Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the members of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight. 7 Then they are to take some of the blood and put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of the houses where they eat the lambs. 8 That same night they are to eat the meat roasted over the fire, along with bitter herbs, and bread made without yeast. 9 Do not eat the meat raw or boiled in water, but roast it over a fire—with the head, legs and internal organs. 10 Do not leave any of it till morning; if some is left till morning, you must burn it. 11 This is how you are to eat it: with your cloak tucked into your belt, your sandals on your feet and your staff in your hand. Eat it in haste; it is the Lord’s Passover.

In the same way this sacrificial lamb in Egypt was consumed in a fire so nothing would be left,so it was with the body of Jesus Christ.God consumed this sacrifice.Jesus Christ.

 

[Nada]

I believe there is no other paradise than Heaven and the Bible does not say that there is. So in my estimation the Bible is saying that the faithful thief went to Heaven.

I believe this reasoning is fallacious because it takes two separate events and tries to tie them together without evidence that they belong together. Jesus left the body on the cross so there is no way He was in it at burial unless He returned and no scripture says that. Jesus does return to the body at resurrection and technically He would no longer be considered in Heaven at that time.

I don't believe the JW's have the authority to set the requirements for going to Heaven.

I believe he effectively did what anyone being baptized does and that is be repentent of his sins and accept the Lordship of Jesus.

I believe anyone who comes to Jesus for salvation will be found in the Kingdom and the believing thief qualifies.

I believe this type of misinformation is typical of the watchttower society and its publications.

Well brother you said it," So in my estimation the Bible is saying that the faithful thief went to Heaven." The holy scriptures are not to be interpreted according to what we think.There is only one interpretation and that is God's. Genesis 40:8 "We both had dreams," they answered, "but there is no one to interpret them." Then Joseph said to them, "Do not interpretations belong to God? Tell me your dreams."


Only those who are baptized in the holy spirit, like those at the Pentecost of 33 C.E., will go to Heaven to reign with Jesus Christ.The rest of the people who are forgiven and make it will reside on earth forever.Heaven is only for those who are anointed.This is where Gods government is.The earth was made to be inhabited forever,just as was planned from the beginning with Adam and Eve.Read this.

Isaiah 45:18 For this is what the LORD says-- he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited-- he says: "I am the LORD, and there is no other.

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

So we have God saying He created the Earth to be inhabited forever and we have the Word saying the Meek shall inherit the Earth.

Those who are not of the anointed class will reside on Earth forever.Not Heaven.

Another thing.When it speaks of the time after the 1,000 year reign of peace in the book of Revelation,it mentions this final battle will take place on earth,not Heaven.

Revelation 20:7-10. 7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So as you can see all of this takes place on Earth.This is where those who made it through Armageddon,which is Gods great day,will reside.

 

[Redemptionsong]

One-answer,
The Bible is not contradictory, and that's proven by the scriptures themselves. I believe that your confusion arises as the result of not seeing the difference between the old and new covenants.

The proof text that you have used to demonstrate contradiction in the Bible has been Matthew 7:21-23. Let's look at the whole passage:
'Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.'

Look at the words and tell me this; Can you please God by doing many wonderful works without KNOWING JESUS AS LORD?

I think if you're honest, the answer will have to be NO.

Now, if Jesus is the SPIRIT of TRUTH, or Word of Truth, then knowing Jesus Christ is knowing the Spirit of Truth. How can you do that unless the Spirit of Truth is WITHIN YOU?

The Spirit of Truth is LOVE. This is confirmed in 1 John 4:8, ‘He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.’

My argument is this. If you follow religion, you follow LAW. If you follow Jesus Christ, you follow the way of LOVE. For love is the fulfilment of the law. The new covenant can be summed up in that one word – LOVE.

 

[paarsurrey]

Further to posts #4, 45, and 54,423,448,496.

We will look into Surah/Chapter No.3 of Quran to its end: [8]

The Holy Quran : Chapter 3: Aal-e-`Imran

[3:71] O People of the Book! why do you deny the Signs of Allah, while you are witnesses thereof ?
[3:72] O People of the Book! why do you confound truth with falsehood and hide the truth knowingly?
[3:73] And a section of the People of the Book say, ‘Believe in that which has been revealed unto the believers, in the early part of day, and disbelieve in the latter part thereof; perchance they may return;
[3:74] ‘And obey none but him who follows your religion;’ — Say, ‘Surely, the true guidance, the guidance of Allah, is that one may be given the like of that which has been given to you’ — ‘or they would dispute with you before your Lord.’ Say, ‘All bounty is in the hand of Allah. He gives it to whomsoever He pleases. And Allah is Bountiful, All-Knowing.
[3:75] ‘He chooses for His mercy whomsoever He pleases. And Allah is Lord of exceeding bounty.’
[3:76] Among the People of the Book there is he who, if thou trust him with a treasure, will return it to thee; and among them there is he who, if thou trust him with a dinar, will not return it to thee, unless thou keep standing over him. That is because they say, ‘We are not liable to blame in the matter of the unlearned;’ and they utter a lie against Allah knowingly.
[3:77] Nay, but whoso fulfils his pledge and fears God — verily, Allah loves the God-fearing.
[3:78] As for those who take a paltry price in exchange for their covenant with Allah and their oaths, they shall have no portion in the life to come, and Allah will neither speak to them nor look upon them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them; and for them shall be a grievous punishment.
[3:79] And, surely, among them is a section who twist their tongues while reciting the Book; that you may think it to be part of the Book, while it is not part of the Book. And they say, ‘It is from Allah;’ while it is not from Allah; and they utter a lie against Allah knowingly.
[3:80] It is not possible for a man that Allah should give him the Book and dominion and prophethood, and then he should say to men: ‘Be servants to me and not to Allah;’ but he would say: ‘Be solely devoted to the Lord because you teach the Book and because you study it.’

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

Outhouse, Redemptionsong, Bible Student or any other poster here, believing in a religion or no-religion is welcome to prove threadbare:

1. Which verses of this chapter have been copied/plagiarized from Christian Gospels?
2. What argument/s have been given from Christian Gospels of NT-Bible or Quran, if any, to prove that “Jesus did not die on the Cross”?
Please

Regards

 

[Nada]

Further to posts #4, 45, and 54,423,448,496.

We will look into Surah/Chapter No.3 of Quran to its end: [8]

The Holy Quran : Chapter 3: Aal-e-`Imran

[3:71] O People of the Book! why do you deny the Signs of Allah, while you are witnesses thereof ?
[3:72] O People of the Book! why do you confound truth with falsehood and hide the truth knowingly?
[3:73] And a section of the People of the Book say, ‘Believe in that which has been revealed unto the believers, in the early part of day, and disbelieve in the latter part thereof; perchance they may return;
[3:74] ‘And obey none but him who follows your religion;’ — Say, ‘Surely, the true guidance, the guidance of Allah, is that one may be given the like of that which has been given to you’ — ‘or they would dispute with you before your Lord.’ Say, ‘All bounty is in the hand of Allah. He gives it to whomsoever He pleases. And Allah is Bountiful, All-Knowing.
[3:75] ‘He chooses for His mercy whomsoever He pleases. And Allah is Lord of exceeding bounty.’
[3:76] Among the People of the Book there is he who, if thou trust him with a treasure, will return it to thee; and among them there is he who, if thou trust him with a dinar, will not return it to thee, unless thou keep standing over him. That is because they say, ‘We are not liable to blame in the matter of the unlearned;’ and they utter a lie against Allah knowingly.
[3:77] Nay, but whoso fulfils his pledge and fears God — verily, Allah loves the God-fearing.
[3:78] As for those who take a paltry price in exchange for their covenant with Allah and their oaths, they shall have no portion in the life to come, and Allah will neither speak to them nor look upon them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them; and for them shall be a grievous punishment.
[3:79] And, surely, among them is a section who twist their tongues while reciting the Book; that you may think it to be part of the Book, while it is not part of the Book. And they say, ‘It is from Allah;’ while it is not from Allah; and they utter a lie against Allah knowingly.
[3:80] It is not possible for a man that Allah should give him the Book and dominion and prophethood, and then he should say to men: ‘Be servants to me and not to Allah;’ but he would say: ‘Be solely devoted to the Lord because you teach the Book and because you study it.’

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

Outhouse, Redemptionsong, Bible Student or any other poster here, believing in a religion or no-religion is welcome to prove threadbare:

1. Which verses of this chapter have been copied/plagiarized from Christian Gospels?
2. What argument/s have been given from Christian Gospels of NT-Bible or Quran, if any, to prove that “Jesus did not die on the Cross”?
Please

Regards

I already showed you on the original forum:Is Quran copied from Jewish Bible/Torah? : Quran did not copy from Jewish Bible/Torah


I even sent you a personal message so you would not miss it.

 

[Redemptionsong]

One-answer,
I am going to predict a response. It is going to come in the form of 'But we do love God, and we do love our brothers in Islam.'
This response, then, leads to another question. Is there a difference between the love of man and the love of God? To which I reply, Is there a difference between heaven and earth? For the love of God is a supernatural love, a love that heals and leads a person into truth. In fact, the love of God IS Truth. The love of man, on the other hand, is a love limited by our own limitations and sinfulness.
I believe that we have to receive the love of God through repentance, and faith in Jesus Christ. It is a spirit of such purity that it is sinless. Those who walk after the flesh cannot know this spirit of love. This spirit is called the HOLY SPIRIT.

 

[paarsurrey]

Jesus did not die on the Cross


10 th Argument – Bones of Jesus were not broken while bones of other two men crucified with Jesus were broken. The Roman Officials wanted to save Jesus from death.

John 19:31-35

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34 Instead, one of the soldiers piercedJesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john 19:31-19:35&version=NIV

The length of time required to reach death could range from hours to days depending on method, the victim's health, and the environment.

Ancient practice

Frequently, the legs of the person executed were broken or shattered with an iron club, an act called crurifragium, which was also frequently applied without crucifixion to slaves.[21] This act hastened the death of the person but was also meant to deter those who observed the crucifixion from committing offenses.[21]

Additionally, a piece of acacia wood was located between the bones and the head of the nail, presumably to keep the condemned from freeing his foot by sliding it over the nail. His legs were found broken, possibly to hasten his death as described in John 19:31-35. It is thought that because in Roman times iron was rare, the nails were removed from the dead body to conserve costs. According to Haas, this could help to explain why only one nail has been found, as the tip of the nail in question was bent in such a way that it could not be removed.

Survival

Since death does not follow immediately on crucifixion, survival after a short period of crucifixion is possible, as in the case of those who choose each year as a devotional practice to be non-lethally crucified.

There is an ancient record of one person who survived a crucifixion that was intended to be lethal, but that was interrupted. Josephus recounts: "I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance. I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician's hands, while the third recovered."[54]

Josephus gives no details of the method or duration of the crucifixion of his three friends before their reprieve.

Crucifixion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jesus was on the cross for only 2/3 hours, he was a strong young person, his bones were not broken. No physician certified of Jesus' death on Cross.

The creed that "Jesus died a cursed death on the Cross" is a fabrication of Paul, the Church and their associates and has got nothing to do with Jesus and his teachings.

Regards

 

[Redemptionsong]

paarsurrey,
According to the Gospels Jesus underwent crucifixion for six hours, from about 9am until about 3pm.

The legs of Jesus were not broken because they concluded that he was already dead. But to be certain he was dead, they pierced his side with a spear.

Now, you are trying to make us believe that Jesus did not die, having received this treatment!

If he had survived, for some inexplicable reason, what are the chances that he would then have been up and around in three days? Yet you claim he was visiting his disciples and followers in good health, and even eating food with them.

Any rational person, faced with these two alternatives, is likely to conclude that Jesus MUST HAVE DIED at the place of crucifixion. The witnesses - Joseph of Arimathea, Nicodemus, the centurion and many others - reported back that Jesus was dead. But somehow you expect us to believe that your evidence is stronger than their witness.

Is this not a case of stubborn pride over-ruling reason and common sense?

 

[Redemptionsong]

One-answer, I've given this testimony on a previous post, but I'll repeat it nevertheless.

I finally came to faith in Jesus Christ having read a passage from John's Gospel.

The words I read were from the mouth of Jesus. He said,
'Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.' (John 15:13)

I pondered this saying, and it spoke to me. I acknowledged that for someone to lay down his life for his friends, he must be acting out of pure love, for he has nothing to gain, in this world at least, from such a sacrifice.

I then realised that Jesus was speaking to me. For this is not a word from the past, but a present reality. Jesus laid down his life for ME, and YOU. He died that we might have LIFE.

Oh God, that you would realise this!

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey,
According to the Gospels Jesus underwent crucifixion for six hours, from about 9 am until about 3 pm.

The legs of Jesus were not broken because they concluded that he was already dead. But to be certain he was dead, they pierced his side with a spear.

Now, you are trying to make us believe that Jesus did not die, having received this treatment!

If he had survived, for some inexplicable reason, what are the chances that he would then have been up and around in three days? Yet you claim he was visiting his disciples and followers in good health, and even eating food with them.

Any rational person, faced with these two alternatives, is likely to conclude that Jesus MUST HAVE DIED at the place of crucifixion. The witnesses - Joseph of Arimathea, Nicodemus, the centurion and many others - reported back that Jesus was dead. But somehow you expect us to believe that your evidence is stronger than their witness.

Is this not a case of stubborn pride over-ruling reason and common sense?

Jesus underwent crucifixion for six hours

I don't agree with you.

Regards

 

[Redemptionsong]

And paarsurrey, here is another passage I came across that confirms the prophetic truth of Jesus' words:

'Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received from my Father.' (John 10:17-19)

 

[paarsurrey]

And paarsurrey, here is another passage I came across that confirms the prophetic truth of Jesus' words:

'Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received from my Father.' (John 10:17-19)

(John 10:17-19)

[/QUOTE]

It is John narrating; not Jesus saying.

Regards