Jesus as an antithesis to Passover

[rosends]

I assume as it works both ways. The matzah is still life giving as a basic substance.

So Mon is connected to "bread" and matzah is bread. Therefore, one makes the argument that "bread" = bread. And if Jesus = "bread" then he also equals bread?

 

[Rival]

So Mon is connected to "bread" and matzah is bread. Therefore, one makes the argument that "bread" = bread. And if Jesus = "bread" then he also equals bread?

I guess!

But it seems that, in general, this is just a Christian reading using a Christian exegetical method. Jews are naturally not seeing thigs the way Christians do; so they're not seeing anything metaphorical about the matzah to begin with, where for Christians, who do not eat matzah or celebrate Pesach the way Jews do, they have to give it another meaning. So the matzah becomes a wafer - unleavened bread - that in Catholic liturgy at the Eucharist, and the whole of Christendom, is called Jesus' body, and Jesus called himself the 'bread of life'. So hopefully you can see how these things are purposefully conflated. The Orthodox Church specifically uses leavened bread, as leaven is not always seen as bad in their theology, and more or less represents rising and the fullness of time etc.

Not sure if this is what you are looking for, but it's what I can offer.

 

[Harel13]

I assume as it works both ways. The matzah is still life giving as a basic substance.

Whoever thinks that clearly has never eaten matzah in their life...

 

[Rival]

Whoever thinks that clearly has never eaten matzah in their life...

This reminds me of my Christian days, oddly.

I had grown up attending a church that used a loaf of bread and just pulled lumps off during Communion.

Then when I went to my friends' confirmations at an Evangelical church, they used these little round waters and I was like, 'What the actual is this?'

Was very disappointed.

But it got worse.

They used grape juice instead of wine.



Communion wafers:

 

[Harel13]

They used grape juice instead of wine.

I like grape juice.

 

[Rival]

I like grape juice.

I love it, but in this context it was very odd. Using grape juice is seen as heretical by most Apostolic or claiming to be Apostolic Churches (Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran). It's like you going to a Pesach Seder and being served chametz products and everyone acting like it's totally normal.

 

[Harel13]

Nobody compares getting out of bed with rising of dough.

Perhaps people should, then!

A dead person, however, may be excused for missing Passover while they are dead.

I don't think that would work with Christianity, though. Isn't it thought that the resurrection was supposed to happen? If it was supposed to happen, I say, it should have happened sooner. As it didn't - it doesn't go with Passover.

. My understanding is that for Jews certain offerings at the temple could only be consumed for three days, after which the offerings had to be burned.

Have any idea which? What comes to mind are offerings that can be consumed for two days, offerings for a day and a night, and the Passover lamb, which can only be consumed during the Seder Night (the exact hour that it's no longer permissible is debated).

I'd agree with you, except in the sense that he is Israel offered as a passover lamb for the nations.

And then immediately goes on and contradicts the whole concept of the festival? No, I fail to see the point of only being partially symbolic.

 

[Harel13]

Why: It's kind of hard to believe for many that 'Jesus rose from the grave', so to be aware, by once eating 'unrisen bread' makes it easier (mind you... not easy) to believe

Sorry, I don't get it.

 

[Harel13]

I feel like we are trying to create a mountain out of a hill--like we are trying to force a square peg in a round hole.

Welcome to my world. This is typically what Jews think of Christians who try to read Jesus into every verse in Tanach and fit him into every Jewish custom.

 

[Brian2]

Oh, I see. There is a three step process
1. identify the food as Mon
2. call the Mon a "grain of heaven" (clearly metaphorical)
3. use that concept of grain in a more literal way to interpret the "bread of the mighty" as actual bread.

I presume by Mon you were referring to manna.
Psalm 78 refers to the manna and calls it bread. I just pointed that out when you asked if the manna is anywhere called bread.
Jesus would have known that manna was called bread of angels and so uses that and refers to Himself as bread from heaven.
We are to eat His flesh and drink His blood, not as the RC Church says, that the bread and wine of communion actually changes into the flesh and blood of Jesus, but by hearing what Jesus has to say to us and obeying it.
So Jesus uses the concept of bread symbolically about Himself.

 

[Harel13]

I feel that Ken S has done a pretty good job of explaining how Yahshua fulfilled the requirements of the Passover lamb

Ah, but the lamb isn't the subject of this thread.

Yahshua died on the 14th of Abib on Passover day

You know there isn't evidence that the name of the month is Aviv, right? The text merely says חדש האביב, Chodesh Ha'aviv, with a definitive article in the beginning. And it's never used anywhere else, so there isn't any way of knowing whether it was really the name of the month or just a way to describe the month as being the month of spring.

On a different note, although Chr-stians and even Jews falsely say leaven represents sin, it is not. Leaven represents false doctrine (Matthew 16:12) which leads to sin. There is so much leaven in the religions of the world.

This is your opinion.

We don't have to rush as we are not needing to escape with our lives from Egypt

In whaty way did the Israelites "have" to escape from Egypt? They had God leading them out. Have you read the story?

As a result, no human being represents the matzah more than Yahshua the Messiah.

Why would a human being represent a piece of cardboard?

The bread represents Yahshua's humble character, not the rising of the Messiah a few days later.

Oh, I get it now. So when the symbolism fits Jesus, it is used, and when it doesn't, it's discarded. Thanks.

 

[Harel13]

Jesusian Passoverian theology, I like that.

Great! Tell your friends.

Here is some symbolism seen in the Matzah.
The Symbolism of the Passover Matzah Points to Messiah — Song For Israel

I'll pass. I don't do too well with missionary websites.

You are right, I confused them. Jesus did say that He is the true bread from heaven and no doubt He was referring to the manna as the other bread from heaven, which pointed to Jesus.
Ahh symbolism everywhere for Christians.

So, to second @rosends's question, manna is bread?

Edit: Never mind on that last point, I saw that you replied.

 

[Brian2]

So Mon is connected to "bread" and matzah is bread. Therefore, one makes the argument that "bread" = bread. And if Jesus = "bread" then he also equals bread?

I made the mistake of referring to Matzah as the bread from heaven by saying that Jesus said He is the real bread from heaven. If you are referring to that mistake I will say that I have since corrected that mistake.
The bread from heaven is manna and Jesus would have been referring to that when He called Himself the true bread from heaven.
Nevertheless there can be a symbolism which connects the Matzah to Jesus also.

 

[rosends]

I presume by Mon you were referring to manna.
Psalm 78 refers to the manna and calls it bread. I just pointed that out when you asked if the manna is anywhere called bread.
Jesus would have known that manna was called bread of angels and so uses that and refers to Himself as bread from heaven.
We are to eat His flesh and drink His blood, not as the RC Church says, that the bread and wine of communion actually changes into the flesh and blood of Jesus, but by hearing what Jesus has to say to us and obeying it.
So Jesus uses the concept of bread symbolically about Himself.

I presume by "manna" you are referring to Mon. Psalm 78 talks about Mon as a grain of heaven and a meal of heroes (avirim is the Hebrew word -- it does not mean angels).

 

[Brian2]

I guess!

But it seems that, in general, this is just a Christian reading using a Christian exegetical method. Jews are naturally not seeing thigs the way Christians do; so they're not seeing anything metaphorical about the matzah to begin with, where for Christians, who do not eat matzah or celebrate Pesach the way Jews do, they have to give it another meaning. So the matzah becomes a wafer - unleavened bread - that in Catholic liturgy at the Eucharist, and the whole of Christendom, is called Jesus' body, and Jesus called himself the 'bread of life'. So hopefully you can see how these things are purposefully conflated. The Orthodox Church specifically uses leavened bread, as leaven is not always seen as bad in their theology, and more or less represents sing and the fullness of time etc.

Not sure if this is what you are looking for, but it's what I can offer.

Yes at the last supper, which is seen as a Passover seder, Jesus referred to the bread as His body which He gave for us and the wine as His blood, the blood of the New Covenant.
For Christians usually the bread of remembrance does not have to be unleavened even if the wafers in a Catholic Mass are unleavened.
It is mainly the Catholics who want to take the words of Jesus literally about the bread being His body and the wine His blood and make it into something that only their priests can do, change the bread and wine into Jesus body and blood. IMO it is a power thing that they have so that they can say we need the Catholic Church.

 

[rosends]

Nevertheless there can be a symbolism which connects the Matzah to Jesus also.

because they both had holes poked in them?

 

[Rival]

Yes at the last supper, which is seen as a Passover seder, Jesus referred to the bread as His body which He gave for us and the wine as His blood, the blood of the New Covenant.
For Christians usually the bread of remembrance does not have to be unleavened even if the wafers in a Catholic Mass are unleavened.
It is mainly the Catholics who want to take the words of Jesus literally about the bread being His body and the wine His blood and make it into something that only their priests can do, change the bread and wine into Jesus body and blood. IMO it is a power thing that they have so that they can say we need the Catholic Church.

I've never attended a Western Church, apart from the weird one from my childhood, that had leavened bread. It seems pretty important.

Also, Anglicans, Lutherans and Orthodox have similar if not the same views on the Eucharist. Every early Western Church has this theology.

 

[Brian2]

I love it, but in this context it was very odd. Using grape juice is seen as heretical by most Apostolic or claiming to be Apostolic Churches (Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran). It's like you going to a Pesach Seder and being served chametz products and everyone acting like it's totally normal.

It is the remembrance that is important not whether it is leavened or unleavened bread or wine of grape juice or orange juice.
I go to an Anglican church and we have either wine or grape juice and usually pieces of leavened bread.
The High Church of England (high Anglicans) have gone the same way that the RC Church has and believes they can change bread and wine into Jesus body and blood and that is because when the Anglican Church began, there ended up ordained Bishops of the Catholic Church who became or were forced to become Anglican and so they are seen as having the power that the Catholic Bishops have and to ordain priests who can do what the Catholic priests are said to do with the bread and wine.

 

[Rival]

Yes at the last supper, which is seen as a Passover seder, Jesus referred to the bread as His body which He gave for us and the wine as His blood, the blood of the New Covenant.
For Christians usually the bread of remembrance does not have to be unleavened even if the wafers in a Catholic Mass are unleavened.
It is mainly the Catholics who want to take the words of Jesus literally about the bread being His body and the wine His blood and make it into something that only their priests can do, change the bread and wine into Jesus body and blood. IMO it is a power thing that they have so that they can say we need the Catholic Church.

Why Use Unleavened Bread for Communion? | Pilgrim Ministry
Unleavened Bread Required for Communion? | GARBC Baptist Bulletin

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I like grape juice.

I prefer old grape juice lol