Jesus as an antithesis to Passover

[Kenny]

Isaiah 53:7 - the lamb goes silent to the slaughter

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.
​

is contradicted by:

Matthew 27:46 - Jesus cries out in a loud voice on the cross

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).​

I don't think you applied it correctly -- let's look carefully and the wording.

Isaiah is as he goes to the slaughter while Matthew is when is was being slaughtered.

A better application would be:
[During Jesus' trial,] the leading priests kept accusing him of many crimes, and Pilate asked him, "Aren't you going to answer them? What about all these charges they are bringing against you?" But Jesus said nothing, much to Pilate's surprise.
— Mark 15:3-5 NLT

 

[Kenny]

That's the thing, though. Jesus, according to the NT, didn't die any other day. He either died on Passover Eve or Passover itself. When come Passover, the Israelites were hurried. Jesus did not hurry when come Passover.

When he died on the high Sabbath, they hurriedly buried him.

Quite frankly, from the inception, I really don't see the point here. I feel like we are trying to create a mountain out of a hill--like we are trying to force a square peg in a round hole.

 

[pearl]

Let me explain: During Passover, Jews eat unleavened bread, called "matzah" in Hebrew. This is in memory of the bread that the Israelites took with them out of Egypt which didn't rise because they left hurriedly. You can probably already tell where I'm going with this...

That's why in the Roman Catholic Church bread for the Eucharist must be made of wheat, be unleavened, and be recently made and unspoiled.

Jesus, on the other hand, is said to have risen

It is more accurate to say Jesus 'was raised'. As for the 'three' days, I'm sure you are familiar with
the 'three day' motif used throughout both testaments.

So it seems to me difficult to suggest that Jesus somehow fulfilled Passover or something like that. Quite the opposite, actually.

Though the wording has changed over the years in the past at the Vigil Mass, after the fire and lighting of the Easter candle and before the procession, it was announced, 'this is the passover of the lord.'

 

[Brickjectivity]

Deut 12:31
31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God; for every abomination to the LORD, which He hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters do they burn in the fire to their gods.

Jer 19:4-6
4 because they have forsaken Me, and have estranged this place, and have offered in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah; and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;
5 and have built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons in the fire for burnt-offerings unto Baal; which I commanded not, nor spoke it, neither came it into My mind.
6 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that this place shall no more be called Topheth, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter;


Psa 106:36-38
36 And they served their idols, which became a snare unto them;
37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto demons,
38 And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan;
and the land was polluted with blood.

Christians be like: Yeah but like now human sacrifice is cool.
Funny how God did a 180 on that.

Thank you. Many of us are not so cold, but I hear your complaint. It adds to my reasons to talk about this and to open things.

My view is that a terrible thing happened when Titus took Jerusalem. Someone decided to live on and to think of it not as the end but a call to regroup. Hope was kindled, and it was contagious hope, determined hope. A memorial also was set up to honor those who died. Today, this memorial is being desecrated possibly through ignorance. It is most unfortunate that Jesus comes across as the antithesis of passover when he ought to be seen as a symbol of hope. That needs to be remedied, and it cannot be through silence.

 

[rosends]

One idea about Passover is that any and all rising (as it relates to bread initially, and then to the human psyche, secondarily) is about pride, so we embrace the dough that does not rise and which symbolizes humility. We also see the intrusion of leaven as an imposition by the evil inclination, so any rising would also symbolize temptation away from the proper path. Embracing a symbol which is typified by any "rising" would (symbologically) fly in the face of the central message of the holiday.

Any other coopting of the symbols of the day (an animal sacrifice and wine come to mind) would have to be excised from ritual context and reimagined to be used in reference to any messianic claimant as that's just not what they are about.

 

[pearl]

One idea about Passover is that any and all risin

It would be just as accurate to say that Jesus passed from death to life, 'rising' is not necessary.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

A number of recent posts related to Jesus rising on Easter or the like made me realize that this would make Jesus kind of the opposite of one of the main ideas of Passover, which is ironic because Christians consider him to be the ultimate Passover lamb.

Let me explain: During Passover, Jews eat unleavened bread, called "matzah" in Hebrew. This is in memory of the bread that the Israelites took with them out of Egypt which didn't rise because they left hurriedly. You can probably already tell where I'm going with this...

The Israelites were hurriedly taken out of Egypt. This seems kind of strange because as they were in Egypt for so long, God couldn't wait a few hours more for them to make proper bread? There are many answers to this question, but the general idea is that it was necessary for the Israelites to leave in a hurry, and it was likewise necessary for the bread not to have had enough time to rise.

Jesus, on the other hand, is said to have risen after three days. In other words, he was in no real hurry, and he rose, just like the sort of bread that is not consumed on Passover.

So it seems to me difficult to suggest that Jesus somehow fulfilled Passover or something like that. Quite the opposite, actually.

You saw this meme too, eh?

 

[Messianic Israelite]

A number of recent posts related to Jesus rising on Easter or the like made me realize that this would make Jesus kind of the opposite of one of the main ideas of Passover, which is ironic because Christians consider him to be the ultimate Passover lamb.

Let me explain: During Passover, Jews eat unleavened bread, called "matzah" in Hebrew. This is in memory of the bread that the Israelites took with them out of Egypt which didn't rise because they left hurriedly. You can probably already tell where I'm going with this...

The Israelites were hurriedly taken out of Egypt. This seems kind of strange because as they were in Egypt for so long, God couldn't wait a few hours more for them to make proper bread? There are many answers to this question, but the general idea is that it was necessary for the Israelites to leave in a hurry, and it was likewise necessary for the bread not to have had enough time to rise.

Jesus, on the other hand, is said to have risen after three days. In other words, he was in no real hurry, and he rose, just like the sort of bread that is not consumed on Passover.

So it seems to me difficult to suggest that Jesus somehow fulfilled Passover or something like that. Quite the opposite, actually.

Hi Harel13. Good morning. Interesting point Harel13. I feel that Ken S has done a pretty good job of explaining how Yahshua fulfilled the requirements of the Passover lamb with the exception of bringing in the cross which, if you look at the terms used in the Biblical texts, it wasn't a cross used but an upright stake (see the terms 'Stauros' and 'Xulon'). The only sense where I see things being hurried is the following fact. Yahshua died on the 14th of Abib on Passover day, the day which is preparation for the 1st High Day of Unleavened Bread on the 15th of Abib. Joseph of Arimathea asked for Yahshua's body, laid him to rest in his own tomb and then most likely went away to make his final preparations for the 1st High Day of Unleavened Bread. John 19 says: "31 The Jews therefore, because it was the Preparation, that the bodies should not remain on the torture stake upon the sabbath (for the day of that sabbath was a high day), asked of Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away." They were in a hurry to kill these people because the High Sabbath was approaching.

Another time when there was hurrying was when the disciples hurried to leave Yahshua in the night he was betrayed. They fled from him.

Thinking also about the account, the implication is that Judas Iscariot rushed out at night to betray Yahshua on Passover night. As the scriptures state in John 13:26-30: "26 Yahshua therefore answers, He it is, for whom I shall dip the sop, and give it to him. So when he had dipped the sop, he takes and gives it to Judah, the son of Simon Iscariot. 27 And after the sop, then Satan entered into him. Yahshua therefore says to him, What you do, do quickly. 28 Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spoke this to him. 29 For some thought, because Judah had the bag, that Yahshua said to him, Buy what things we have need of for the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor. 30 He then having received the sop went out straightway: and it was night."

On a different note, although Chr-stians and even Jews falsely say leaven represents sin, it is not. Leaven represents false doctrine (Matthew 16:12) which leads to sin. There is so much leaven in the religions of the world.

We don't have to rush as we are not needing to escape with our lives from Egypt, but we remember how the Israelites did this and we remember by eating the unleavened bread how Israel didn't even have time to leaven their bread. The implication is, when Yahweh calls us, we must act straightaway. When he calls us out of Egypt of sin, we will have no time to carry the leaven (false teaching) with us, but only to obey Yahweh and although this will mean not having the usual bread to eat, we can however eat the simplistic bread of wheat flour and water, in other words, we will have to rely on Yahweh to feed us with His bread. They had only time to gather their things, to plunder the Egyptians and to gather at Rameses (Numbers 33:3) to depart out of Egypt. Too many people do not get up and go when Yahweh says 'go'. You can read Matthew 22:1-5 and understand that many people make excuses as to why they can't obey Yahweh straightaway. That delay is what causes leaven to grow in the lives of people. Leaven grows with time and can only be stopped by the process of freezing or baking.

Yahshua the Messiah is represented by matzah because it is a flat bread. Yahshua my Savior was humble, although he was actually an heavenly being that had been born as a human being. He emptied himself of his royal splendor and took the position as a humble servant, completely submissive to Yahweh's will and Yahweh's Law. As the scriptures say: "who, existing in the form of Elohim, counted not the being on an equality with Yahweh a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; 8 and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even to death, yes, the death of the torture stake." (Philippians 2:6-8) 1 Corinthians 5:6-8 indicates that matzah represents sincerity and truth, which is the opposite of false doctrine. Yes, Yahshua did rise after 3 days and 3 nights of being in the tomb, but he remained humble. As a result, no human being represents the matzah more than Yahshua the Messiah. The bread represents Yahshua's humble character, not the rising of the Messiah a few days later. His resurrection is however connected with the wave sheaf offering.

There is so much to say about this, but for lack of time, I will leave it there. May Yahweh bless you.

 

[rosends]

It would be just as accurate to say that Jesus passed from death to life, 'rising' is not necessary.

So he was not risen. OK.

 

[pearl]

I find it hard to believe that the word 'rising' in connection with Jesus should bring up so much controversy.



The benediction celebrates God’s mighty acts. In its current form, it reads:

You are eternally mighty, O Lord.

You revive the dead: great is your power to

save.

(You make the wind to blow and the rain to

fall.)

You sustain the living with compassion: you

revive the dead with abundant mercy.

You support the falling, heal the ailing, free

the captive: and maintain the faith with those

who sleep in the dust.

Whose power can compare with yours, who

is comparable to you O king who brings

death and restores life and causes salvation

to sprout?

You are faithful to restore life to the dead

Praised are you, Lord, who restores life to

the dead.

The real controversy is the belief that the One 'restored' to life is believed to be the Messiah.

 

[Brian2]

Deut 12:31
31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God; for every abomination to the LORD, which He hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters do they burn in the fire to their gods.

Jer 19:4-6
4 because they have forsaken Me, and have estranged this place, and have offered in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah; and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;
5 and have built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons in the fire for burnt-offerings unto Baal; which I commanded not, nor spoke it, neither came it into My mind.
6 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that this place shall no more be called Topheth, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter;


Psa 106:36-38
36 And they served their idols, which became a snare unto them;
37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto demons,
38 And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan;
and the land was polluted with blood.

Christians be like: Yeah but like now human sacrifice is cool.
Funny how God did a 180 on that.

God did not do a 180 on anything. Sacrificing our children to idols never has been OK with God. Yet God was prepared to allow His Son to be sacrificed and makes it an offering for sin. (Isa 53:10)
It is God who makes it a sacrifice. Nobody on earth was sacrificing Jesus, they were just killing Him.
No, Jesus was allowing Himself to be sacrificed because He knew the meaning of the scriptures that spoke about it and knew what God wanted Him to do,,,,,,,,,,,,, be obedient even to the death.
Interestingly when we see in the Gospels that Caiaphas, the High Priest that year, had counselled that one man should die for the sake of all the people. (John 18:14) This is almost like the High Priest, without knowing it, sacrificed Jesus.

 

[Brian2]

I don't think any of it actually relates to Jesus. But from the Christian perspective, this is a core theme of Passover that stands in stark contrast to Jesusian Passoverian theology.

Jesusian Passoverian theology, I like that.
Here is some symbolism seen in the Matzah.
The Symbolism of the Passover Matzah Points to Messiah — Song For Israel

Why are you confusing unleavened bread and manna?

You are right, I confused them. Jesus did say that He is the true bread from heaven and no doubt He was referring to the manna as the other bread from heaven, which pointed to Jesus.
Ahh symbolism everywhere for Christians.

 

[rosends]

You are right, I confused them. Jesus did say that He is the true bread from heaven and no doubt He was referring to the manna as the other bread from heaven, which pointed to Jesus.
Ahh symbolism everywhere for Christians.

is there anywhere in the biblical text (let's say for now, not including the gospels) where the Mon from heaven is called "bread"?

 

[Rival]

is there anywhere in the biblical text (let's say for now, not including the gospels) where the Mon from heaven is called "bread"?

This might not be what you are looking for, but I am reminded of a version of the Our Father in Old French. There is a very interesting one which deviates from traditional wording and might clear things up, if a little. Here's the relevant line:

Sire, done nos hui nostre vivre de chascun jor.
(Lord, give us today our life of each day).

Usually 'vivre' is 'pain', meaning bread, as it is in every language.

However, bread here is just being used symbolically for 'life, life giving'.

I'm not sure, therefore, 'bread from heaven' is meant to literally be bread and was not thought of as literal bread, but something life giving.

 

[rosends]

This might not be what you are looking for, but I am reminded of a version of the Our Father in Old French. There is a very interesting one which deviates from traditional wording and might clear things up, if a little. Here's the relevant line:

Sire, done nos hui nostre vivre de chascun jor.
(Lord, give us today our life of each day).

Usually 'vivre' is 'pain', meaning bread, as it is in every language.

However, bread here is just being used symbolically for 'life, life giving'.

I'm not sure, therefore, 'bread from heaven' is meant to literally be bread and was not thought of as literal bread, but something life giving.

It just seems that this is rife for conflation then. Call 2 separate things by one name and then you invite creating a (symbolic) relationship between them.

 

[Brian2]

is there anywhere in the biblical text (let's say for now, not including the gospels) where the Mon from heaven is called "bread"?

I found this place. I don't know about any others.

Psalm 78:23Yet he gave a command to the skies above
and opened the doors of the heavens;
24 he rained down manna for the people to eat,
he gave them the grain of heaven.
25 Human beings ate the bread of angels;
he sent them all the food they could eat.

 

[Rival]

It just seems that this is rife for conflation then. Call 2 separate things by one name and then you invite creating a (symbolic) relationship between them.

Within Christian language 'bread' is often used to mean 'life, life giving substance' as bread, being the staple food, is basic to sustain life, but very rarely does it ever mean literal bread. It's natural for Christians to refer to anything life-giving as 'bread'. I don't think this is being done to purposefully confuse or distort. It may just be that growing up outside of a Christian context, this is quite baffling.

 

[rosends]

I found this place. I don't know about any others.

Psalm 78:23Yet he gave a command to the skies above
and opened the doors of the heavens;
24 he rained down manna for the people to eat,
he gave them the grain of heaven.
25 Human beings ate the bread of angels;
he sent them all the food they could eat.

Oh, I see. There is a three step process
1. identify the food as Mon
2. call the Mon a "grain of heaven" (clearly metaphorical)
3. use that concept of grain in a more literal way to interpret the "bread of the mighty" as actual bread.

 

[rosends]

Within Christian language 'bread' is often used to mean 'life, life giving substance' as bread, being the staple food, is basic to sustain life, but very rarely does it ever mean literal bread. It's natural for Christians to refer to anything life-giving as 'bread'. I don't think this is being done to purposefully confuse or distort. It may just be that growing up outside of a Christian context, this is quite baffling.

If it is meant to be metaphorical then why make any connection to matzah which was literal?

 

[Rival]

If it is meant to be metaphorical then why make any connection to matzah which was literal?

I assume as it works both ways. The matzah is still life giving as a basic substance.