jesus and paul are polar opposites...

[DandyAndy]

1 cor 6:1-6
1 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? 2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

luke 6

32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”


how can anyone reconcile this?

What do you see as the contradiction?

This is what I see when I read these and I don't really see a contradiction, but I'm bias...

I see Paul giving specific guidelines for a group of believers in a specific region about how to handle court cases that arise between members (which is bound to happen since we are all imperfect) and Paul tells them that they have all, as followers of Christ, submitted themselves to the same authority. So Paul asks why would they go to an inferior pagan authority to solve an issue that could be EASILY solved by the wisdom, authority and understanding of Christ that they should already have? He makes the point that because we are under the same authority that will judge everything including the world and angels. Also as believers it would be a bad witness to go to a pagan institution for help, kind of like saying 'yeah we're forgiving and loving and stuff but he broke my camels leg and I want repayment and he won't give it to me - make him do so and show I am in the right!' That would look bad.

Christ seems to be talking about not just doing the things that the unbelievers do, but going above and beyond to show that you are truly changed, you are truly a Christ follower and you stand out amongst the unbeliever. Also Christ seems to be talking about dealings between believers and unbelievers, while Paul is talking about dealings between two believers within the community of believers.

In short I think Christ gives the best case scenario of what should happen and Paul is dealing with the situation before him - the whole Church thing was pretty new so it made sense to lay out some ground rules for odd situations that sprouted up (like the situation in chapter 5 of 1 Corinthians).

So I see no contradiction, but again I am bias, so please let me know what you see specifically.

 

[DandyAndy]

"Unity does not mean uniformity." That's one of my favorite quotes.

There are foundational beliefs that all Christian denominations share but on less important stuff, stuff the Bible doesn't really speak about like drums in worship and whether the communion has to be wine or could be grape juice, are free to be expressed however one sees fit, but the virgin birth, the resurrection, the holiness of God, etc., etc. are always nearly identical - so long as you stay within Christian denominations.

 

[Many Sages One Truth]

Jesus and Paul aren't necessarily polar opposites, it's just that many literally interpret a person that was very Mystic, which distorts the message. Paul was a Mystic, he believed that Christ/God was within all, there is no male or female, etc. Jesus taught that God is within all.

I used to have hangups with Paul myself until I read "The First Paul" by Marcus Borg, which explains a lot of the Mysticism in Paul. When Paul says we will judge the world, angels, etc. he's talking about the station of those who are enlightened. When the above joins the below we are raised up to heavenly places.

Compare to Gospel of Thomas: "When you find you will be astonished and will reign over all, and in reigning you will be at rest."

 

[Muffled]

1 cor 6:1-6
1 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? 2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

luke 6

32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”


how can anyone reconcile this?

It is the difference between Christians and non-Christians. Non-Christians will be found breaking the same rules they judge by. Christians should be immune from such a thing. However in our day and age there have been those who have fallen short in this regard.

The Christian should be judging by the Spirit of God within. God never has to worry about being judged by the same criteria He judges by because He is perfect.

So even in the cases where preachers have been caught doing what they preached against, one has to remember that the preaching came from God and the preacher needs to heed it as well as the hearer.

 

[waitasec]

What do you see as the contradiction?

This is what I see when I read these and I don't really see a contradiction, but I'm bias...

I see Paul giving specific guidelines for a group of believers in a specific region about how to handle court cases that arise between members (which is bound to happen since we are all imperfect) and Paul tells them that they have all, as followers of Christ, submitted themselves to the same authority. So Paul asks why would they go to an inferior pagan authority to solve an issue that could be EASILY solved by the wisdom, authority and understanding of Christ that they should already have? He makes the point that because we are under the same authority that will judge everything including the world and angels.

that has nothing to do with the tea in china ...jesus said, " 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back."
paul telling christians to solve their problems within their inner circle is a direct violation of what jesus said to do...

Also as believers it would be a bad witness to go to a pagan institution for help, kind of like saying 'yeah we're forgiving and loving and stuff but he broke my camels leg and I want repayment and he won't give it to me - make him do so and show I am in the right!' That would look bad.

why not reiterate what jesus taught? it seems paul was about conforming to the ways of the world... there are no words in pauls passage that implies forgiveness.

Christ seems to be talking about not just doing the things that the unbelievers do, but going above and beyond to show that you are truly changed, you are truly a Christ follower and you stand out amongst the unbeliever. Also Christ seems to be talking about dealings between believers and unbelievers, while Paul is talking about dealings between two believers within the community of believers.

that doesn't make one bit of difference. paul and jesus should be on the same page, and they are not. paul doesn't reenforce what jesus taught. who is the enemy? unbelievers or the person that wronged you?

In short I think Christ gives the best case scenario of what should happen and Paul is dealing with the situation before him - the whole Church thing was pretty new so it made sense to lay out some ground rules for odd situations that sprouted up (like the situation in chapter 5 of 1 Corinthians).

i read that as, jesus laid out the high standard which would separate his followers from the world, paul was about mediocrity.

 

[waitasec]

"Unity does not mean uniformity." That's one of my favorite quotes.

There are foundational beliefs that all Christian denominations share but on less important stuff, stuff the Bible doesn't really speak about like drums in worship and whether the communion has to be wine or could be grape juice, are free to be expressed however one sees fit, but the virgin birth, the resurrection, the holiness of God, etc., etc. are always nearly identical - so long as you stay within Christian denominations.

oh i see, so put aside the nitty gritty details of what constitutes being a follower of jesus...but instead be a follower of paul who seems to have adopted the ways of the world by judging the world...

 

[waitasec]

Jesus and Paul aren't necessarily polar opposites, it's just that many literally interpret a person that was very Mystic, which distorts the message. Paul was a Mystic, he believed that Christ/God was within all, there is no male or female, etc. Jesus taught that God is within all.

I used to have hangups with Paul myself until I read "The First Paul" by Marcus Borg, which explains a lot of the Mysticism in Paul. When Paul says we will judge the world, angels, etc. he's talking about the station of those who are enlightened. When the above joins the below we are raised up to heavenly places.

Compare to Gospel of Thomas: "When you find you will be astonished and will reign over all, and in reigning you will be at rest."

i doubt if paul was ever privy to the gospels...
his letters were written before them and i agree, paul saw jesus as a myth
none of his letters show details of jesus' ministry except for the mystic elements of the sacrifice, resurrection and eternal life

 

[waitasec]

The Christian should be judging by the Spirit of God within. God never has to worry about being judged by the same criteria He judges by because He is perfect.

oh i see, so your opinion matters because you believe in jesus
this is dangerous. this is the mentality that caused people to fly into buildings or had parents kill their children because the spirit of god was within, or so they thought. jesus made it loud and clear 37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

So even in the cases where preachers have been caught doing what they preached against, one has to remember that the preaching came from God and the preacher needs to heed it as well as the hearer.

but what about the spirit of god within?
if a person follows what jesus taught those are the christians, the rest are just hypocrites or just want to be saved.

 

[sojourner]

that has nothing to do with the tea in china ...jesus said, " 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back."
paul telling christians to solve their problems within their inner circle is a direct violation of what jesus said to do...

why not reiterate what jesus taught? it seems paul was about conforming to the ways of the world... there are no words in pauls passage that implies forgiveness.
that doesn't make one bit of difference. paul and jesus should be on the same page, and they are not. paul doesn't reenforce what jesus taught. who is the enemy? unbelievers or the person that wronged you?

i read that as, jesus laid out the high standard which would separate his followers from the world, paul was about mediocrity.

What Paul is doing is not so much "at odds" with Jesus, as it is placing Xy in a broader context than the gospels do.

What you read is incorrect. Paul isn't "about mediocrity."

The synoptics talk about Jesus the human, itinerant preacher. John talks about Jesus as God Incarnate. Paul talks about the Christ, more as a type than an individual. Neither viewpoint is "correct" as over against the others. They are all kind of concentric circles of theological understanding that take us from a narrow world view to a broader world view.

There's nothing "wrong" with that. It's part and parcel of Xy being an evolutionary mvt.

 

[DandyAndy]

oh i see, so put aside the nitty gritty details of what constitutes being a follower of jesus...but instead be a follower of paul who seems to have adopted the ways of the world by judging the world...

I wasn't implying that at all - I wasn't sure what your qualm was so I threw that out there because it's a nice thought and I hate when people talk about Christianity being dumb because there are denominations - I know you didn't say that, just kind of 'nipping that in the bud' so to speak. Plus someone said something made me think of the quote.

 

[DandyAndy]

that has nothing to do with the tea in china ...jesus said, " 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back."
paul telling christians to solve their problems within their inner circle is a direct violation of what jesus said to do...

I don't see it as a violation at all, the two are speaking about different situations it appears.

why not reiterate what jesus taught? it seems paul was about conforming to the ways of the world... there are no words in pauls passage that implies forgiveness.
that doesn't make one bit of difference. paul and jesus should be on the same page, and they are not. paul doesn't reenforce what jesus taught. who is the enemy? unbelievers or the person that wronged you?

I see two different situations - Paul does reiterate what Jesus taught as he urges them to not go before a pagan court, as even an unbeliever would do. They need to settle it amongst themselves, which, based on what they all belief in common, would include forgiveness and whatnot.

We'd have to think about who Paul is writing to, what region these people are in and what kind of people they are and all that stuff to really dive into this. That's all stuff I'm not really qualified to answer and am too lazy to look up.

I think the enemy is the person that is attacking you/against you/doing wrong to you. I guess. I just don't see a contradiction. Sorry.

i read that as, jesus laid out the high standard which would separate his followers from the world, paul was about mediocrity.

Paul's situation didn't involve non-believers. He urges them to keep it that way.

 

[javajo]

In 1 Cor. 6, Paul was just telling believers to settle their disputes amongst themselves. He also said:

17Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Romans 12

4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. Romans 14

That is perfectly in line with what Christ taught.

 

[waitasec]

jesus says the person creates the dispute.
it takes 2 to tango, right? jesus clearly says when a situation arises where a follower of his is offended...turn the other cheek....

it's pretty clear to me, all these disclaimers only justifies a mediocre christian....lukewarm...
matthew 7:24-27

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

i don't see what the problem is...if one calls themselves a follower of christ....
they should so what christ taught not what paul taught, because paul seems to have found a luke warm way of dealing with lifes situations...jesus is telling you to walk through the eye of the needle...jesus never claimed following him would be easy, it's the hardest thing to do....and there are those who say they are followers but wear disclaimers on their shoulders. frankly, it's not impressive at all.

actually the only person that history has shown to have followed jesus foot steps would be dr. king jr.

 

[Pegg]

1 cor 6:1-6
1 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? 2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

Paul is admonishing the Corinthian congregation because some of them were were taking others to court over, what Paul believed, trivial matters. Paul wanted them to go to the elders in their congregation and settle the matters between themselves in a better way.

" 5 I am speaking to move YOU to shame. Is it true that there is not one wise man among YOU that will be able to judge between his brothers, 6 but brother goes to court with brother, and that before unbelievers? 7 Really, then, it means altogether a defeat for YOU that YOU are having lawsuits with one another. Why do YOU not rather let yourselves be wronged? Why do YOU not rather let yourselves be defrauded? 8 To the contrary, YOU wrong and defraud, and YOUR brothers at that. 9 What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom?

luke 6

32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
how can anyone reconcile this?

Jesus was teaching people how to deal with the enemy. He wanted Christians to love their enemies, to be kind to all people, to show mercy.

So Jesus and Paul are not contradicting each other...they are speaking about entirely different subjects. Paul is talking to christians who were having lawsuits with each other, Jesus was speaking about how a person would be approved by God.

Although, if you look hard enough, you can see areas of similarity. Paul said those brothers should let themselves be wronged rather then take the other to court...that would be very similar to showing love to our enemies.

 

[javajo]

jesus never claimed following him would be easy, it's the hardest thing to do.

I think you have salvation confused with discipleship. Understanding sanctification may help. Having been freely saved by grace through faith in Christ unto good works, we are set apart (sanctified) positionally at salvation, progressively as we grow in grace throughout life, and ultimately in Heaven.

 

[sojourner]

jesus says the person creates the dispute.
it takes 2 to tango, right? jesus clearly says when a situation arises where a follower of his is offended...turn the other cheek....

it's pretty clear to me, all these disclaimers only justifies a mediocre christian....lukewarm...
matthew 7:24-27

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

i don't see what the problem is...if one calls themselves a follower of christ....
they should so what christ taught not what paul taught, because paul seems to have found a luke warm way of dealing with lifes situations...jesus is telling you to walk through the eye of the needle...jesus never claimed following him would be easy, it's the hardest thing to do....and there are those who say they are followers but wear disclaimers on their shoulders. frankly, it's not impressive at all.

actually the only person that history has shown to have followed jesus foot steps would be dr. king jr.

Paul is making an argument from a specific standpoint -- and from a position of Platonic thought, in order to appeal to a Gentile church. Jesus is making an argument from a general standpoint, from a position of Judaic thought. Again, it's not a contradiction so much as it is a difference of perspective.

 

[waitasec]

I think you have salvation confused with discipleship. Understanding sanctification may help. Having been freely saved by grace through faith in Christ unto good works, we are set apart (sanctified) positionally at salvation, progressively as we grow in grace throughout life, and ultimately in Heaven.

but i thought being a christian was being a disciple...

matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

grace is just getting a free pass to sin. besides jesus never talks about grace paul does.

 

[waitasec]

Paul is making an argument from a specific standpoint -- and from a position of Platonic thought, in order to appeal to a Gentile church. Jesus is making an argument from a general standpoint, from a position of Judaic thought. Again, it's not a contradiction so much as it is a difference of perspective.

sure if you think grace is something that jesus offers...
but where does jesus say he does?

i don't see why jesus needs to be explained from any other stand point, it's as if jesus didn't explain himself well enough...jesus was jewish as should the entire world be, according to jesus the god man in the gospels.
the problem i see is that his standards are far too high for anyone to reach...and paul placed buffers and introduces mediocrity in order to soften the blow of discipleship for the gentiles. once compromise enters it slowly chips away the true meaning of what jesus taught....or what the gospels were trying to convey for their specific audience.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

1 cor 6:1-6
1 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? 2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

luke 6

32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”


how can anyone reconcile this?

Apples are not oranges.

 

[waitasec]

Apples are not oranges.

"are you not competent to judge trivial cases?"

"Do not judge, and you will not be judged"

what are you talking about, i don't see apples or oranges...
i see an avocado...