Jesus and Messianic Prophecy

[Booko]

Jesus transformed people's lives. Because he provides atonement for sin and reconciliation with God, Jesus brings peace, joy, and purpose into people's lives. Apart from faith in him, there is no basis for true peace or direction, for as the psalmist says, "Man is estranged from the womb." That this estrangement is healed by the reconciling ministry of Jesus is the common experience of those who believe in him.

I'm sorry, Mini, but we may just have to agree to disagree on this point.

The Tenach's view of THE Messiah is that he will be the cause of real peace, not just to the individual, but to the community, on a global scale. We are promised 1000 years of a Golden Age, which is not something you can claim for the first 1000 years of Christianity.

I have no problem whatsoever with the notion that Jesus brings peace to people's lives. In fact, that's pretty much how I see His mission -- to the individual. In a way, it's getting people ready for the 2nd chapter.

I also don't buy the idea that the only basis for true peace or direction is through Jesus, despite Christian views to the contrary. If it were so, we should see the Christian world to be noticably a more peaceful place than the non-Christian world, and it isn't so now, and hasn't been unusually so in human history. I don't think that makes Christianity "bad" or anything like that -- it's just that the time for peace had not yet come.

In early Christian history there was a coming together of peoples who normally would have nothing to do with each other. That I grant you, and it was a great accomplishment. A great civilization was built on the back of Christianity, and that is not an accomplishment to be pooh poohed. But then, I submit this is the case in the early centuries of any of the major religions where we have history enough to tell.

 

[Ody]

It is important to begin by saying that for one who has already made up his or her mind that Jesus is not the Messiah, no amount of evidence will be convincing. But for those who are honest in asking, the evidence speaks for itself....

I am probably more viable to change in my religious beliefs that a vast majority of the members of this forum. I came to judaism after a long voyage, and even now it is not a perfect fit, but it seems to resonate!

 

[Ody]

Jesus brings peace,

No religion that is salvation based is bound to be purely peaceful, there are always nuts to ruin the system :cover:

 

[Booko]

I am probably more viable to change in my religious beliefs that a vast majority of the members of this forum. I came to judaism after a long voyage, and even now it is not a perfect fit, but it seems to resonate!

Is there any such thing as a perfect fit in a religion?

There are things about my religion I would love to discard, but if you really believe in it, that's kinda hard to do.

Besides, there are other things I didn't like about it, but doggedly decided to obey what it said anyway, and after some years I found out there actually was a good reason for things being the way they are. Maybe sometime before I die I'll figure out the reasons for the couple of things left that I don't much care for.

 

[Buttercup]

Wow…and here I was thinking it would be just Halcyon and I discussing this subject in here! It’s nice to see others. Looks like I am behind the curve however. I am unfortunately swamped with work at the moment so here is a quick line up of what are considered Messianic prophecies (by many Christians) from various parts of the Old Testament. For brevity’s sake…I have not included any introduction to the authors or further passages of text from the books mentioned. We can either discuss each of these prophecies further or I can add more prophecies as we go…

Sold for Thirty Pieces of Silver

Prophecy: Zechariah 11:12 And I said to them, “If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!” So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages.
Fulfillment: Matthew 26:14-15 Then one of the twelve, named Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests, 15 and said, “What are you willing to give me to deliver Him up to you?” And they weighed out to him thirty pieces of silver.

Betrayed By a Friend

Prophecy: Psalm 55:12-14 For it is not an enemy who reproaches me, Then I could bear it; Nor is it one who hates me who has exalted himself against me, Then I could hide myself from him. 13 But it is you, a man my equal, My companion and my familiar friend. 14 We who had sweet fellowship together, Walked in the house of God in the throng. (See also Psalm 41:9; Zech 13:6).
Fulfillment: Matthew 26:49-50 And immediately he went to Jesus and said, “Hail, Rabbi!” and kissed Him. 50 And Jesus said to him, “Friend, do what you have come for.” Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and seized Him.

Accused by False Witnesses

Prophecy: Psalm 35:11 Malicious witnesses rise up; They ask me of things that I do not know.
Fulfillment: Matthew 26:59-60 Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus, in order that they might put Him to death; and they did not find any, even though many false witnesses came forward. But later on two came forward, . . .
Smitten and Spit Upon

Prophecy: Isaiah 50:6 I gave My back to those who strike Me, And My cheeks to those who pluck out the beard; I did not cover My face from humiliation and spitting.
Fulfillment: Matthew 27:30 And they spat on Him, and took the reed and began to beat Him on the head.
NOTE: Note here the details that correspond in both prophecy and fulfillment (1) He was to be smitten, (2) He was to be smitten on the face (as well as the other parts of the body). See Luke 22:64. (3) He was to be spit upon, and (4) He was to be spitten upon in the face.

Wounded and Bruised

Prophecy: Isaiah 53:5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.
Fulfillment: Matthew 27:26, 29 Then he released Barabbas for them; but after having Jesus scourged, he delivered Him to be crucified. . . . And after weaving a crown of thorns, they put it on His head, and a reed in His right hand; and they kneeled down before Him and mocked Him, saying, “Hail, King of the Jews!”

 

[Buttercup]

but there's no Temple!!

The prophecies in Daniel are referring to the Messiah coming before the destruction of the second temple. Jesus fulfilled that. The second Temple was destroyed in 70 AD......it stood for 420 years. The first Temple stood for 410 years and was torn down in 586 BC.

 

[Booko]

No religion that is salvation based is bound to be purely peaceful, there are always nuts to ruin the system :cover:

Oh, I don't think salvation basing has anything to do with that. I think mere human nature explains that pretty well.

 

[Booko]

The prophecies in Daniel are referring to the Messiah coming before the destruction of the second temple. Jesus fulfilled that. The second Temple was destroyed in 70 AD......it stood for 420 years. The first Temple stood for 410 years and was torn down in 586 BC.

But it seems clear from Jesus remarks about the "times of the end" that the bit in Daniel about the "abomination of desolation" was not to be fulfilled until Jesus, the Sequel, yes?

fwiw, Daniel's time prophecy (12:6) calculates out to 1260, there are reference in Revelation that come out to 1260.

What you may not realize is that Islamic prophecy and Zoroastrian prophecy also contain references to 1260.

I found that a very interesting coincidence back when I was an atheist reading up on religious texts.

 

[jewscout]

The prophecies in Daniel are referring to the Messiah coming before the destruction of the second temple. Jesus fulfilled that. The second Temple was destroyed in 70 AD......it stood for 420 years. The first Temple stood for 410 years and was torn down in 586 BC.

yes but prophecy also talks about the Temple being in operation DURING the time of Moshiach...and if Jesus was moshiach where's the Temple?

again......for judaism, not so much...

 

[Buttercup]

But it seems clear from Jesus remarks about the "times of the end" that the bit in Daniel about the "abomination of desolation" was not to be fulfilled until Jesus, the Sequel, yes?

fwiw, Daniel's time prophecy (12:6) calculates out to 1260, there are reference in Revelation that come out to 1260.

What you may not realize is that Islamic prophecy and Zoroastrian prophecy also contain references to 1260.

I found that a very interesting coincidence back when I was an atheist reading up on religious texts.

If I have time this week, I hope to draw out the timing of Daniel's prophecies for the timing of the Messiah....it is dead right on. Unfortunately while this subject is very fascinating...it is also quite time consuming to bring forth argument that is compelling. I enjoy it though. Hopefully the thread won't get too far ahead of me while I'm in and out.

 

[jewscout]

The Temple will come as soon as the Jewish peoples accept Christ.

nooooo in judaism he has to do the job first...only then can we know he is Moshiach

not the other way around.

 

[jewscout]

Who says he wont?

well until he does...from a jewish perspective...he's just some dead guy.

 

[Buttercup]

yes but prophecy also talks about the Temple being in operation DURING the time of Moshiach...and if Jesus was moshiach where's the Temple?

I'm not sure what scripture you are thinking of but from a Christian perspective...I'm sure it means his second coming....when the entire world shall know him.

again......for judaism, not so much...

Yeah, I know. It's ok. Just a subject to talk about. We don't have to agree.

 

[jewscout]

i started off on the right foot but somehow landed on the wrong foot....

look if jesus fulfilled the role of messiah from a christian context and definition of the role, and it brings you to the One G-d and makes you a good person, cool, whatever works for you is fine by me:yes:

but for the jews, we believe there are set tasks for the Moshiach to fulfill and until those goals are made then we can not be fully certain anyone is Moshaich.
until the time of the fulfillment of JEWISH prophecy it is not for the jews to know right now, simply to wait until Moshiach's arrival, whoever it may be.

 

[Booko]

The Sheep, The Shepherd, and The Sheep Dog

Sorry, I couldn't resist an opportunity to use that smiley.

 

[Buttercup]

i started off on the right foot but somehow landed on the wrong foot....

Nahhh, you're fine. Religion is a subject that's difficult to ALWAYS talk about with little demonstrated passion. Heck, it's too personal.

look if jesus fulfilled the role of messiah from a christian context and definition of the role, and it brings you to the One G-d and makes you a good person, cool, whatever works for you is fine by me:yes:

Actually, part of the reason I am a Christian still is because of prophecy. I have questioned all this my whole life. Have always been a doubter...I can't help it. But, nothing has turned me away yet. But, I do realize every one makes their own choices. And I can never criticize for that. One's faith is a thing to be decided alone in the end.

but for the jews, we believe there are set tasks for the Moshiach to fulfill and until those goals are made then we can not be fully certain anyone is Moshaich.
until the time of the fulfillment of JEWISH prophecy it is not for the jews to know right now, simply to wait until Moshiach's arrival, whoever it may be.

Yeah, I understand that.......But, for me, there's been plenty of proof that Jesus was the man! And like I said...I hope to add more to this debate later in the week. I have to sift through tons of information that I can't keep in my brain 'cause there' s too much else hogging space!

 

[Booko]

If I have time this week, I hope to draw out the timing of Daniel's prophecies for the timing of the Messiah....it is dead right on. Unfortunately while this subject is very fascinating...it is also quite time consuming to bring forth argument that is compelling. I enjoy it though. Hopefully the thread won't get too far ahead of me while I'm in and out.

I know exactly what you mean, Buttercup. I look forward to seeing your argument whenever you can get to it.

I have been quite naughty myself today and spent time doing other things when I should be doing a garden design. So tomorrow, I guess I'll be playing catchup, since I deliver the thing on Friday.

 

[jewscout]

Nahhh, you're fine. Religion is a subject that's difficult to ALWAYS talk about with little demonstrated passion. Heck, it's too personal.

Actually, part of the reason I am a Christian still is because of prophecy. I have questioned all this my whole life. Have always been a doubter...I can't help it. But, nothing has turned me away yet. But, I do realize every one makes their own choices. And I can never criticize for that. One's faith is a thing to be decided alone in the end.


Yeah, I understand that.......But, for me, there's been plenty of proof that Jesus was the man! And like I said...I hope to add more to this debate later in the week. I have to sift through tons of information that I can't keep in my brain 'cause there' s too much else hogging space!

of course, i read certain prophecies that christians use and say to me, "it's talking about Jesus" and i have to agree that, if i were coming from that mind frame, i would say the same thing...i mean what or who else are you gonna see? elvis?

i just know that G-d meant for the jewish people not to know until it was time for us to know and Moshiach will prove himself by his actions for he will feel compelled to do all these things...
i long for the day to see the Beit HaMikdash in its proper place in Jerusalem again...
until then...i wait:shout

 

[Ody]

The Temple will be a Church, Mosque, and Synagogue. It will be built by those who follow Christ

Not from a jewish perspective, maybe christian, but not jewish

 

[Adstar]

Yes, I agree, and personally I think those do apply to Jesus.

It's the other prophecies that don't. Like the passage in Micah that you didn't address. Did Jesus come from Assyria? Did he teach for 40 years? Nope.

Oh, and world peace did not come because of Jesus either. I think 2000 years is probably enough to wait for that to come to fruition, and it hasn't. I don't think that diminishes the station of Jesus in any way. He just happened to have a different mission is all.

Others have pointed out the moshiach is supposed to rebuild the temple. Whether you take that prophecy as a literal rebuilding or a metaphorical, that doesn't change the fact that the Temple was still standing, after the Crucifixion, until 70 C.E. How can that prophecy possibly fit?

"Like the passage in Micah that you didn't address. Did Jesus come from Assyria?"

Read the passage in question. What is it saying:

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

This verse is not saying that The Messiah will come from Assyria this is saying that the Messiah will come to Assyria And to many different lands. As Christians believe that when Jesus returns He will go out and collect all the saints from all over the world and bring them to His kingdom.

Mark 13
24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days