Jesus and Messianic Prophecy

[Halcyon]

Buttercup suggested in another thread that we start a new thread on Jesus and his possibility of being the Messiah.

Lets start with a quote from wiki;

. The reason that Jesus was not accepted by the majority of the Jewish community was that they believed he did not fulfill any of the conditions that moshiach is required to fulfill by Jewish law and tradition.

So what exactly did Jesus fulfill that made some people believe he was the Messiah?

From my understanding the Messiah is supposed to rebuild the Temple and unite all the people of Israel in their homeland once more. Jesus of course did neither of these things.
Are most Christians therefore believers in the two Messiah concept, a Mashiach ben Yosef and a Mashiach ben David?

Rather than me posting why i don't think Jesus was the Messiah, i'd like you create a convincing argument in favour of him fulfilling the Messianic prophecies.

...................................................................................................................

A second short part to this thread, which i just want a quick answer to if possible.
It says in Matthew 2:23 that Jesus fulfilled a prophecy concerning him being from Nazareth and thus being called a Nazarene. Where is this prophecy from, i can't find it in any of the works of the OT?

 

[Ody]

He did not furfill the jewish prophecies as specified by talmud and torah. After all

HE DID NOT BRING PEACE FOR ALL NATIONS
HE DID NOT REBUILD THE TEMPLE...


etc...etc...

But that doesn't mean he wasn't a messiah, but from a rabbinical standpoint, he is not.

 

[Buttercup]

Buttercup suggested in another thread that we start a new thread on Jesus and his possibility of being the Messiah.

Haa. Looks like I opened my big mouth and made homework for myself didn't I? Should be fun. It's been a year or so since I've participated in this debate subject.....I'll have to dig up my notes and get back.

A second short part to this thread, which i just want a quick answer to if possible.
It says in Matthew 2:23 that Jesus fulfilled a prophecy concerning him being from Nazareth and thus being called a Nazarene. Where is this prophecy from, i can't find it in any of the works of the OT?

Here is an answer I find to be fitting to this question......
http://www.messianicgoodnews.org/rabbis/nazarene.htm

 

[Defij]

If I may, I’d like to throw my hat into this interesting conversation. First, let us look historically at the concepts of the “Messiah” floating around during the 1st century in Palestine.

The Essenes had a view of the Messiah in that he would not only overthrow Rome and set up the Davidic kingdom once again physically on earth, but that he would also cleanse the priestly position in the Temple. The Pharisees held the same view in that the Messiah would come and set up an earthly kingdom, kicking out the Romans, but they weren’t so keen on the whole part about kicking out the priests and setting up new ones, considering they were part of that group. And then you had the Sadducees, who wanted no part of a Messiah at all, considering they were in great with the Roman government and had it made. The concept of some messiah coming in and kicking them out, upsetting the political balance was not appealing at all. We see this in the Book of Acts when Peter and John are brought before the Sanhedrin Council. They are all calling for them to be punished, however Gamaliel a Pharisee, goes off and tells the council that God will deal with them if indeed they are not of God, and if they are from God ,then they can not be stopped (Acts 5). Apparently there were many people claiming to be the Messiah during that time period, and indeed some of them even gained a substantial following. Gamaliel points to the start of the Zealot movement in his speech there as well. On a side note, it’s always funny how the Pharisees get a bad wrap, but the majority of the persecution against the very first Christians came from the Sadducees.

So did Jesus fit any of these descriptions of a Messiah? Certainly not. However, as the Gospel developed, especially by Paul and his gospel verses say the Judaizers and their gospel, the concept of Jesus as being the Messiah began to come to fruition. That is because how they viewed the Messiah changed. It went from being strictly a political figure, to a spiritual healer who would very soon be a political figure. This is shown in the “imminence” (or very soon to happen) seen in Paul’s writings about the return of Jesus. Upon His return, THEN Jesus would fulfil that Davidic Messiah figure, and set up the political kingdom on earth. It seems from Paul’s writings that he was convinced that Jesus would return during his lifetime! This is the historical occasion for several of his letters (The letter of 1st Thessalonians is the classic example of this)

One thing that needs to be mentioned is the definition of “Messiah”. It simply means “appointed one”. Now, what that appointment is for varies greatly. It could be simply appointed to set up an earthly kingdom, or appointed to redeem the world to God. Or both.

 

[Defij]

From my understanding the Messiah is supposed to rebuild the Temple and unite all the people of Israel in their homeland once more. Jesus of course did neither of these things.

Also this isn't necessarily true. Again, during the 1st Century in Palestine, they were expecting the Messiah, and they still had the temple in tack. It wasn't until 70 AD that the Temple was destroyed. This whole concept of the Messiah rebuilding the temple is rubbish. It comes from a false hermeneutical view about the anti-Christ, and the rapture and the tribulation and all this other nonsense (i.e. any of the “Left Behind” books). Judaism, as it is today, has no need for a temple at all. Synagogues have developed (starting during the Babylonian exile) into the main place of worship. The temple will never be rebuilt nor does it need to be for Judaism to function properly.

 

[Booko]

Also this isn't necessarily true. Again, during the 1st Century in Palestine, they were expecting the Messiah, and they still had the temple in tack. It wasn't until 70 AD that the Temple was destroyed. This whole concept of the Messiah rebuilding the temple is rubbish. It comes from a false hermeneutical view about the anti-Christ, and the rapture and the tribulation and all this other nonsense (i.e. any of the “Left Behind” books). Judaism, as it is today, has no need for a temple at all. Synagogues have developed (starting during the Babylonian exile) into the main place of worship. The temple will never be rebuilt nor does it need to be for Judaism to function properly.

I don't do the anti-Christ, rapture or tribulation thing, but it does seem like the prophecies about the 2nd Coming and Jewish prophecies about Moshiach have more in common than the 1st coming.

 

[Adstar]

Have a read of this chapter of the OT prophet Isaiah:

Isaiah. 53.
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Now does this not describe Jesus to a tee?

Note the prophesy says that
"12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death:"

This happens AFTER He was to be Killed.
"8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken."

It is clear that The Messiah would be Killed and resurrected before He would fulfill ALL the prophesies of the Messiah. So the stance that one uses to reject the Messiah Jesus because he did not fulfill ALL the prophesies during His life falls down because the Prophecy makes clear that The Messianic prophecy would be fulfilled in two stages. The first part before the execution of the Messiah and then the second part After His resurrection.

Of course Jesus has not fulfilled all the prophesies of the Messiah, He will finish the Work upon His return. Read the book of Revelation it shows that the prophesies will be fulfilled when Jesus comes again.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Booko]

Have a read of this chapter of the OT prophet Isaiah:

Isaiah. 53.

Yes, I agree that Isa. 53 applies to Jesus.

Of course Jesus has not fulfilled all the prophesies of the Messiah, He will finish the Work upon His return. Read the book of Revelation it shows that the prophesies will be fulfilled when Jesus comes again.

Hm, seems we agree on this also.

 

[Ody]

Judaism, as it is today, has no need for a temple at all. Synagogues have developed (starting during the Babylonian exile) into the main place of worship. The temple will never be rebuilt nor does it need to be for Judaism to function properly.

When Moshiach comes IT WILL BE BUILT my friend, that is inevitable, so says talmud.

 

[Quiddity]

He did not furfill the jewish prophecies as specified by talmud and torah. After all

HE DID NOT BRING PEACE FOR ALL NATIONS
HE DID NOT REBUILD THE TEMPLE...


etc...etc...

But that doesn't mean he wasn't a messiah, but from a rabbinical standpoint, he is not.

Isn't the Talmud the Oral Torah put together in circa 500?
In other words, interpretations of text was not something that was in stone until after Christ.

 

[Ody]

Isn't the Talmud the Oral Torah put together in circa 500?

All of the Talmud was given at Har Sinai

 

[Quiddity]

All of the Talmud was given at Har Sinai

Maybe you are tired....Go get some rest....
http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=190&o=104

 

[jewscout]

He did not furfill the jewish prophecies as specified by talmud and torah. After all

HE DID NOT BRING PEACE FOR ALL NATIONS
HE DID NOT REBUILD THE TEMPLE...


etc...etc...

But that doesn't mean he wasn't a messiah, but from a rabbinical standpoint, he is not.

like i've said before, he's not the Jewish Moshiach...
but christianity has defined the role of messiah different from that of Judaism and if it brings them closer to the One G-d...whatever, ya know?

 

[jewscout]

Maybe you are tired....Go get some rest....
http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=190&o=104

what i think Alan is trying to say is this...
traditional Torah Judaism (orthodoxy for the most part) believes that the Mishnah, which is part of the Talmud, was given to Moshe (moses) at Sinai as the Oral Torah along w/ the Written Torah...and it was passed down orally until the Talmud was compiled and written down and the Gemara, the Rabbinical writings on the Mishnah, were added to it to make the Talmud.

 

[Booko]

Isn't the Talmud the Oral Torah put together in circa 500?
In other words, interpretations of text was not something that was in stone until after Christ.

Ultimately it doesn't matter. There are messianic prophecies in the written Torah that Jesus clearly did not fulfill, at least not the first time around. One of the more obvious ones is:

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

Jesus didn't come from Assyria. He came from Galilee.

Also a later verse:

Micah 7:15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.

OK, so the amount of time it took to come out of the land of Egypt was 40 years. Jesus taught for 3 years, yes? Not 40.

The 2nd time around, these may be fulfilled, but they weren't the 1st time.

If Jews don't accept Jesus as moshiach, it's probably just because He doesn't fit the prophecies in the Torah about moshiach. Some of them accept that He was a prophet -- just not a prophet for Jews.

 

[alexander garcia]

Hi, If I may.My opinion well no not just mine it is writen. How many times does the scripture say not to add to or take from? From Torah to the writings. But then we get the Babalonian exile and the Talmud. If it is the writen word it should be an exact copy of the Tanach. But it is not. For the Talmud to be scripture the writers know more than the prophets and the Almighty who wrote the true scriptures. But to the point of this thread. First most important is WHO is Messiyah? Who is KING of Israel? Is it a man? This is who most of Israel was and is still waitring for, a man. But WHO is KING over Israel and all the world? Who? is it a man? No it is Yahvah. Read the scriptures Mal. 3:1 the messanger comes before YAHVAH.

 

[jewscout]

Hi, If I may.My opinion well no not just mine it is writen. How many times does the scripture say not to add to or take from? From Torah to the writings. But then we get the Babalonian exile and the Talmud. If it is the writen word it should be an exact copy of the Tanach. But it is not. For the Talmud to be scripture the writers know more than the prophets and the Almighty who wrote the true scriptures. But to the point of this thread. First most important is WHO is Messiyah? Who is KING of Israel? Is it a man? This is who most of Israel was and is still waitring for, a man. But WHO is KING over Israel and all the world? Who? is it a man? No it is Yahvah. Read the scriptures Mal. 3:1 the messanger comes before YAHVAH.

classical Judaism disagrees with you...

unless u spend ur shabbats in the dark w/ cold food:foot:

 

[alexander garcia]

Hi, Yes traditional teachings say I am wrong. But the Tanach says they are wrong.

 

[jewscout]

Hi, Yes traditional teachings say I am wrong. But the Tanach says they are wrong.

then what are tefillin as referred to in deut.?
What constitutes "work" in the context of Shabbat?
what does the verse, "You shall not cook a kid in it's mother's milk" mean?

 

[Quiddity]

what i think Alan is trying to say is this...
traditional Torah Judaism (orthodoxy for the most part) believes that the Mishnah, which is part of the Talmud, was given to Moshe (moses) at Sinai as the Oral Torah along w/ the Written Torah...and it was passed down orally until the Talmud was compiled and written down and the Gemara, the Rabbinical writings on the Mishnah, were added to it to make the Talmud.

Isn't it the other way around?
The Mishnah came first and the Talmud is a dwarf and simpler version of the Mishnah. In regards to when it was put into writing.