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Jesus and Messianic Prophecy

jewscout

Religious Zionist
Victor said:
Isn't it the other way around? :confused:
The Mishnah came first and the Talmud is a dwarf and simpler version of the Mishnah. In regards to when it was put into writing.

the Mishnah is part of the Talmud...it is the oral tradition, the Oral Torah that had been passed on in that format for generations prior...the Mishnah was written down first and then followed by the Gemara, the Rabbinical commentary, if i remember correctly...
together they form the Talmud.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
jewscout said:
the Mishnah is part of the Talmud...it is the oral tradition, the Oral Torah that had been passed on in that format for generations prior...the Mishnah was written down first and then followed by the Gemara, the Rabbinical commentary, if i remember correctly...
together they form the Talmud.

Ah, gotcha. Read the link I provided and hopefully you can see why I was understanding it like I was.
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
Victor said:
Ah, gotcha. Read the link I provided and hopefully you can see why I was understanding it like I was.

ahhh i c

well it's not necessarily wrong they just forgot to mention the word Gemara in their explanation...
that would have made more sense but..whatever lol
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Booko said:
Ultimately it doesn't matter. There are messianic prophecies in the written Torah that Jesus clearly did not fulfill, at least not the first time around. One of the more obvious ones is:

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

Jesus didn't come from Assyria. He came from Galilee.

Also a later verse:

Micah 7:15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.

OK, so the amount of time it took to come out of the land of Egypt was 40 years. Jesus taught for 3 years, yes? Not 40.

The 2nd time around, these may be fulfilled, but they weren't the 1st time.

If Jews don't accept Jesus as moshiach, it's probably just because He doesn't fit the prophecies in the Torah about moshiach. Some of them accept that He was a prophet -- just not a prophet for Jews.

That clear eh?
Just to give one example of how imperspicuous this ancient dialogue is:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26721&highlight=Patai

I would of thought you would give us Christians a bit more credit then that..;)
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
Victor said:
That clear eh?
Just to give one example of how imperspicuous this ancient dialogue is:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26721&highlight=Patai

I would of thought you would give us Christians a bit more credit then that..;)

I'm not following you here at all, Victor. I made a comment about some text in Micah and you refer me to a thread about Isaiah 53 and it's possible interpretation of Israel as the "suffering servant"?

I happen to agree with the Christians that Isaiah 53 is a reference to Moshach ben Yusef, who I believe Jesus was. And I understand why, and do not criticize, Jews for believing otherwise.

Hm, how I am not giving Christians credit?
 

theMINI

Member
Jews believe Jesus was a rebel and did not complete any of their prophecies.

From Wikipedia.com:
Muslims describe many figures also found in the Bible, such as Adam, Moses and Jesus as Muslims because they are said to have submitted to God and preached his message as prophets.

Most Christians identify Jesus as the Messiah. In their view, Jesus' coming was a fulfilment of Old Testament prophecy and the inauguration of God's Kingdom. Jesus was anointed as ruler and saviour of all humankind.

Personally, I think Jesus was the son of God put on earth to bring salvation to the land and save the people. So to answer your question, there is the possibility that Jesus was the Messiah but did not have time to fulfill every prophecy.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Booko said:
I'm not following you here at all, Victor. I made a comment about some text in Micah and you refer me to a thread about Isaiah 53 and it's possible interpretation of Israel as the "suffering servant"?

I happen to agree with the Christians that Isaiah 53 is a reference to Moshach ben Yusef, who I believe Jesus was. And I understand why, and do not criticize, Jews for believing otherwise.

Hm, how I am not giving Christians credit?

Nevermind....
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
theMINI said:
Personally, I think Jesus was the son of God put on earth to bring salvation to the land and save the people. So to answer your question, there is the possibility that Jesus was the Messiah but did not have time to fulfill every prophecy.

for someone to be Moshiach (in a jewish context) the prophecies must be fulfilled...otherwise...they ain't...
 

theMINI

Member
jewscout said:
for someone to be Moshiach (in a jewish context) the prophecies must be fulfilled...otherwise...they ain't...

The Old Testament Messianic prophecies were found to be uniquely fulfilled in the Lord Jesus Christ. There are hundreds of these prophecies, so that the possibility of their accidental convergence on any ordinary man is completely ruled out by the laws of probability.
 

Ody

Well-Known Member
theMINI said:
The Old Testament Messianic prophecies were found to be uniquely fulfilled in the Lord Jesus Christ. There are hundreds of these prophecies, so that the possibility of their accidental convergence on any ordinary man is completely ruled out by the laws of probability.

Alot of the major prophecies where not done by jesus, i.e. peace for all nations. :rainbow1:
 

theMINI

Member
Have any of your Jews visited JewsForJesus.org?

One thing is certain; after two thousand years, Jesus of Nazareth is still as controversial in the Jewish community as he was in the first century. Still, most hold to the traditional bottom line that whatever he was, he wasn't the expected Messiah.

Jews for Jesus begs to differ. We believe that Jesus was, and still is, who he claimed to be-the Messiah of Israel and of all nations. In this section, we present you with arguments for his Messiahship and respond to objections that you may have heard or raised. In this way, we join with those first-century Jews and Gentiles who found Jesus-in Hebrew, Y'shua-to be "the way, the truth, and the life."
 

Ody

Well-Known Member
theMINI said:
Have any of your Jews visited JewsForJesus.org?

Messianic Judaism Bias, of course they will declare him the jewish messiah :sleep: ...

plus no conclusive arguements, o wells nice try from them.
 

theMINI

Member
AlanGurvey said:
Messianic Judaism Bias, of course they will declare him the jewish messiah ...

plus no conclusive arguements, o wells nice try from them.

It is important to begin by saying that for one who has already made up his or her mind that Jesus is not the Messiah, no amount of evidence will be convincing. But for those who are honest in asking, the evidence speaks for itself.... ;)
 

theMINI

Member
Booko said:
Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

Jesus didn't come from Assyria. He came from Galilee.

All of these passages were recognized by the early rabbis as referring to the Messiah:

  • Messiah was to be born at Bethlehem: Micah 5:1
  • Messiah would be from the tribe of Judah: Genesis 49:10
  • Messiah would present himself by riding on an ***: Zechariah 9:9
  • Messiah would be tortured to death: Psalm 22
  • Messiah would arrive before the destruction of the Second Temple: Daniel 9:24-27
  • Messiah's life would match a particular description, including suffering, silence at his arrest and trial, death and burial in a rich man's tomb, and resurrection: Isaiah 52:13-53:12
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
hey MINI i hate to break it to you...

but there's no Temple!! the jews went into exhile at the time of Jesus and peace doesn't rule in the world...

for the jews

Jesus is not the Messiah
 

theMINI

Member
Wow. Sorry for all the above posts. It keep giving me an error message but I guess it posted them anyway. :areyoucra

jewscout said:
hey MINI i hate to break it to you...

but there's no Temple!! the jews went into exhile at the time of Jesus and peace doesn't rule in the world...

for the jews

Jesus is not the Messiah

I believe the author of the thread asked: So what exactly did Jesus fulfill that made some people believe he was the Messiah?

I have posted some reasons as to why some people (such as myself) believe Jesus was the Mesiah. I am aware Jews believe otherwise.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
theMINI said:
It is important to begin by saying that for one who has already made up his or her mind that Jesus is not the Messiah, no amount of evidence will be convincing. But for those who are honest in asking, the evidence speaks for itself.... ;)

MINI, I was raised a Christian am an fairly conversant in the way messianic prophecies are applied to Christ. imo, some of them fit, and most of them do not. Like I said in an earlier post, at least not during the 1st coming. I believe in Christ, and I don't find Jews for Jesus' arguments hold much water, sorry.

You might be able to make a case that Jesus is A messiah, but not THE messiah.

Also, please understand that you're not telling Jews anything that haven't heard many times before. They get proselytized to plenty.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
theMINI said:
All of these passages were recognized by the early rabbis as referring to the Messiah:
  • Messiah was to be born at Bethlehem: Micah 5:1
  • Messiah would be from the tribe of Judah: Genesis 49:10
  • Messiah would present himself by riding on an ***: Zechariah 9:9
  • Messiah would be tortured to death: Psalm 22
  • Messiah would arrive before the destruction of the Second Temple: Daniel 9:24-27
  • Messiah's life would match a particular description, including suffering, silence at his arrest and trial, death and burial in a rich man's tomb, and resurrection: Isaiah 52:13-53:12

Yes, I agree, and personally I think those do apply to Jesus.

It's the other prophecies that don't. Like the passage in Micah that you didn't address. Did Jesus come from Assyria? Did he teach for 40 years? Nope.

Oh, and world peace did not come because of Jesus either. I think 2000 years is probably enough to wait for that to come to fruition, and it hasn't. I don't think that diminishes the station of Jesus in any way. He just happened to have a different mission is all.

Others have pointed out the moshiach is supposed to rebuild the temple. Whether you take that prophecy as a literal rebuilding or a metaphorical, that doesn't change the fact that the Temple was still standing, after the Crucifixion, until 70 C.E. How can that prophecy possibly fit?
 

theMINI

Member
Booko said:
MINI, I was raised a Christian am an fairly conversant in the way messianic prophecies are applied to Christ. imo, some of them fit, and most of them do not. Like I said in an earlier post, at least not during the 1st coming. I believe in Christ, and I don't find Jews for Jesus' arguments hold much water, sorry.

You might be able to make a case that Jesus is A messiah, but not THE messiah.

Also, please understand that you're not telling Jews anything that haven't heard many times before. They get proselytized to plenty.

In detail as to lineage, birthplace, time, and lifestyle, Jesus matched the Messianic expectations of the Hebrew Scriptures.

I believe he is THE messiah, but for the sake of debating, we can argue he is A messiah.
 

theMINI

Member
Booko said:
Yes, I agree, and personally I think those do apply to Jesus.

It's the other prophecies that don't. Like the passage in Micah that you didn't address. Did Jesus come from Assyria? Did he teach for 40 years? Nope.

Oh, and world peace did not come because of Jesus either. I think 2000 years is probably enough to wait for that to come to fruition, and it hasn't. I don't think that diminishes the station of Jesus in any way. He just happened to have a different mission is all.

Others have pointed out the moshiach is supposed to rebuild the temple. Whether you take that prophecy as a literal rebuilding or a metaphorical, that doesn't change the fact that the Temple was still standing, after the Crucifixion, until 70 C.E. How can that prophecy possibly fit?

Jesus transformed people's lives. Because he provides atonement for sin and reconciliation with God, Jesus brings peace, joy, and purpose into people's lives. Apart from faith in him, there is no basis for true peace or direction, for as the psalmist says, "Man is estranged from the womb." That this estrangement is healed by the reconciling ministry of Jesus is the common experience of those who believe in him.


edit: I'd just like to mention I'm not arguing or trying to convince people that Jesus was the Messiah. I'm just providing information to have an informative debate.
 
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