Jehovah's Witnesses continuing persecution in Russia....

[oldbadger]

Yeah, I mean, who can tolerate the views of them bigots?

So you couldn't think of anything relevant to say?
...... guessed as much.

 

[oldbadger]

I have no idea what your agenda is. I just know that your reactions in this thread aren't consistent with dispassionate detachment.

So find them....

So you're okay with telling pedophiles that if they attack a kid when there's nobody else around, they won't be punished? You think this is a good rule?

Don't you tell me what I might or might not say to pedophiles.
Now.......... what's the rule of evidence in Canada, and what evidence would you expect to be classed as 'full' in a trial of a sex assault or rape case? Imagine that you or yours were the defendants, that might get you thinking....

Because of JW practices like the two witness rule and shunning members who go to the police, the number of convictions is certainly much less than the number of actual abuse cases.

Please quote the case where the JWs shunned a member for reporting a criminal offence in this Royal Commission investigation.

And yes: Russia shouldn't be imprisoning JWs. Still, I have trouble making it a higher priority than the persecution of other groups that haven't hurt people like the JWs have, like the crackdown against LGBT people in Chechnya, or the murders of atheist bloggers in Bangladesh, or the killing of Rohingya Muslims in Burma. Helping those people isn't enabling harm the way that helping JWs is.

Can we keep on track with your claims which seem to be more or less about JW support/protection for pedophiles?
That would be great.

Have you actually read the Royal Commission's (Australia) report. Please overlook the fact that it is a Royal Commission, know you probably won't have total respect for a Royal Commission.... true?

 

[oldbadger]

I think it's great to learn about other people's beliefs, but there's a difference between being told about what someone believes, and being beaten over the head with it, if you follow. I'm very happy to hear you have JW friends, that's great. My wife works with a couple and gets on with them well enough. My personal experience with them has been... less amicable, I fear. Either I'm too pedantic to let nonsense go unquestioned, or I keep encountering the "beat you over the head" types. Either way, I haven't been impressed particularly.

Both you and another member have had unhappy relations with JWs. Maybe the ones who have visited me were the best?

So you had cancer? I'm glad to hear you're in remission, if so!

I've had skin cancer and (so far) survived it for 18 years. Had a tumour cut out of my courting tackle in 2010 and so far survived it, and the lung tests, scopes, biopsies etc last year came back negative although my GP is a lung specialist and both he and the consultant were fairly sure I had the big C.

I just live by the day, each day, and really trawl every possible benefit from each one.

 

[John53]

Yeah, but if any of them were in seriously tight situations in another land you wouldn't start to dig up the dirt on them, clearly showing that you don't acknowledge their outstanding faith and bravery. Yes?

I answered your question in what you quoted.

 

[oldbadger]

I answered your question in what you quoted.

Yeah..... but I'm finding that allegations against JWs over child abuse reporting are not as strong as previously claimed.

The JWs handed over ALL of their investigations into child abuse, but only two were heard by the Commission.

And it's quite clear that organisations are in legal danger if they report suspects alleged by third parties to the police. What would you do if your local bowls club, photo-club passed on (false) allegations about you from another member to the police who then came and arrested you and charged you with offences you had not committed? You need to see this stuff from ALL angles.

Certainly here in the UK our SCHOOLS seem to be back-pedaling over auto-reporting of assault allegations. Read on:-

https://www.tes.com/news/u-turn-over-plan-jail-teachers-failing-report-child-abuse-concerns

The government has reversed plans for a new law that could have seen teachers and teaching assistants jailed for failing to report concerns about child abuse.

Under the proposals for “mandatory reporting” announced in July 2016, those working with children would have had a legal duty to report any concern about child abuse and neglect.

The plans also included a duty to act, where such individuals could have faced professional or criminal sanctions for failing to take appropriate action where child abuse was known or suspected.

However, a government response to the consultation, released today, revealed overwhelming opposition to mandatory reporting.


Yep...... I thought so......... the JW allegations are not all that the skeptics and enemies claim them to be.
Looks like a witch hunt to me.... so far.

If you've got anything...... please bring it on.....

 

[John53]

And I have no idea what claims against a minority of Witnesses has to do with the thread title that JWs in Ruissia are being frightfully abused by a government which has a harsh history of treating minorities.

I believe I've answered that. I was responding to a claim in the thread that the world would be a better place if everyone was a JW.

And yet I'll bet that JWs in Russia will continue to door knock and meet in Kingdom Halls no matter what.
For sheer guts these folks are the business.

Then they will be breaking the law of Russia. An unjust discriminatory law.

Ha ha! Yes, with every group, but you don't like JWs so let's hang 'em for close scrutiny and criticism, eh?
Question: If your health system had lost your second son (76')through negligence and covered up the true facts behind that loss for forty years (Oct 2017) , how would you feel then?
Question: If your doctor had raped your wife under some hypnosis or other, but the hospital snuck him away..... how would you feel?

I imagine I would be bitter, upset and have a deep distrust. I had an unpleasant experience with a religious organisation as a child and have a deep distrust of all religious organisations.

But you're not watching the News if you think all is right with the big wide world.

There has never been "all is right" in the world but I do believe in general it is getting better.

 

[John53]

Yeah..... but I'm finding that allegations against JWs over child abuse reporting are not as strong as previously claimed.

The JWs handed over ALL of their investigations into child abuse, but only two were heard by the Commission.

You're glossing over the fact that they only handed over the information after a Royal Commission was formed and they had no other real choice. Some of the cases dated back to the 1950's (from memory, don't have to time to check the actual date, 6.30am here and I'm making breakfast for the wife, it's her birthday).

And it's quite clear that organisations are in legal danger if they report suspects alleged by third parties to the police. What would you do if your local bowls club, photo-club passed on (false) allegations about you from another member to the police who then came and arrested you and charged you with offences you had not committed? You need to see this stuff from ALL angles.

I wouldn't like it but that's why we have courts. And that's a hypothetical, we could trade them forever.

Certainly here in the UK our SCHOOLS seem to be back-pedaling over auto-reporting of assault allegations. Read on:-

https://www.tes.com/news/u-turn-over-plan-jail-teachers-failing-report-child-abuse-concerns

The government has reversed plans for a new law that could have seen teachers and teaching assistants jailed for failing to report concerns about child abuse.

Under the proposals for “mandatory reporting” announced in July 2016, those working with children would have had a legal duty to report any concern about child abuse and neglect.

The plans also included a duty to act, where such individuals could have faced professional or criminal sanctions for failing to take appropriate action where child abuse was known or suspected.

However, a government response to the consultation, released today, revealed overwhelming opposition to mandatory reporting.

As with all new policies I'm sure there has to be some fine tuning and adjustments. Personally I feel that if someone knows of child abuse and doesn't do everything legally in their power to stop it they are as guilty as the predator. I couldn't believe when I heard people saying that everyone knew about Saville and Harris. Why didn't they stop them?

Yep...... I thought so......... the JW allegations are not all that the skeptics and enemies claim them to be.
Looks like a witch hunt to me.... so far.

If you've got anything...... please bring it on.....

If the report of a royal commission that there were 1,006 unreported cases doesn't impress you then I got nothing. Royal commissions are at the top of our judiciary system so I guess that's it for me.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

You're glossing over the fact that they only handed over the information after a Royal Commission was formed and they had no other real choice. Some of the cases dated back to the 1950's (from memory, don't have to time to check the actual date, 6.30am here and I'm making breakfast for the wife, it's her birthday).


I wouldn't like it but that's why we have courts. And that's a hypothetical, we could trade them forever.



As with all new policies I'm sure there has to be some fine tuning and adjustments. Personally I feel that if someone knows of child abuse and doesn't do everything legally in their power to stop it they are as guilty as the predator. I couldn't believe when I heard people saying that everyone knew about Saville and Harris. Why didn't they stop them?




If the report of a royal commission that there were 1,006 unreported cases doesn't impress you then I got nothing. Royal commissions are at the top of our judiciary system so I guess that's it for me.

Happy burthday Mrs. @John53

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Both you and another member have had unhappy relations with JWs. Maybe the ones who have visited me were the best?


I've had skin cancer and (so far) survived it for 18 years. Had a tumour cut out of my courting tackle in 2010 and so far survived it, and the lung tests, scopes, biopsies etc last year came back negative although my GP is a lung specialist and both he and the consultant were fairly sure I had the big C.

I just live by the day, each day, and really trawl every possible benefit from each one.

My Mum has had 2 melanomas cut out in the last 10 years? Us3d to be a practical death sentence, but here she is hitting the 5 year survival mark twice. I'm very glad your lungs are ok. I'm not afraid of dying, but dying of cancer scares me.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Let me first address this statement. What do most people (on the outside looking in) understand about our policy of zero tolerance of deliberate wrongdoing and subsequent disfellowshipping?

Do you understand that no one can "join" Jehovah's Witnesses like some sort of club? We are bound by an oath to God at our baptism to uphold the laws of God as taught by his son. We also understand that it allows no willful or deliberate act of breaching God's laws without penalty. Does that mean that we don't make mistakes or have lapses in judgment for which we can seek forgiveness? NO!

We have elders in our congregations who have heavy responsibilities to make sure that no bad influences remain to corrupt others. These elders (usually a body of three) hear accusations and claims of wrongdoing and make careful examination of the evidence brought before them. In congregations where people from many nationalities and backgrounds mix as equals, problems will inevitably arise. No one is disfellowshipped from our ranks without incontrovertible evidence that they have unrepentantly broken God's law.

I emphasise the word "unrepentantly" because, if someone is genuinely sorry and humbly seeks God's forgiveness, there may be some disciplinary measures taken, (depending on the severity of the breach) but no disfellowshipping will take place. There will only be loving encouragement to keep improving.

Disfellowshipping is calculated to cause maximum emotional harm for no reason other than someone has dared to defy the dogmas of the Watchtower Society. None of what you said excuses this. The funny thing is you can replace almost every instance of 'God' in the above quote with 'the Watchtower Society' and it'd still hold true.

Those who refuse to accept responsibility for their proven actions OTOH, either in denying them, or trying to shift the blame on others, will receive counsel and encouragement to reconsider their stance. If they still refuse these efforts to help them, then they leave the elders no choice. Disfellowshipping will take place but only after many attempts to help the person see why they are making a big mistake.

Don't try to bull**** us on this. Disfellowshipping is always a choice; these people aren't holding a gun to the elders' heads. To claim otherwise is victim-blaming nonsense. It's a cold attempt at emotional blackmail. The Watchtower can then use this potential threat as a way to keep its members in line for fear they might bring to light behaviours that could get the organisation into trouble.

Disfellowshipping has one of two potential outcomes.....it either leads to a humble confession and realisation of their actions,

Known to reasonable people as exerting peer pressure for no good reason.

or it invokes pride and anger resulting in a vengeful spirit. Those are the ones who post their sob stories online.

You actually manage to make people who are upset about having a social network - that is cultivated to include as many JWs and as few non-JWs as possible - ripped away from them sound like they've got no reason to be upset. Wow.

The example of the prodigal son is a powerful lesson in tough love. (Luke 15:11-32)

The errant son, squandered his whole inheritance on a debauched life, but when his money ran out, so did his "friends". Alone and destitute, he realized how good his life had been in his father's household, despite the rules he imposed. Humbled by his current state, he decided to return to his Father, not as an entitled son, but as merely one of his hired workers.

His father had made no effort to contact his son or to offer incentives for him to return home

How do you know this? It's not stated in the story the father didn't try any of this. That's beside the point. The fact of the matter is this fails as a justification because in this the Prodigal Son leaves of his own volition - he cut himself off. Disfellowshipping is the opposite - a deliberate isolating of a person by his social & familial groups. This sort of apologetics is more victim-blaming.

....it had to be his decision, based on his own reasons and feelings. When the father saw his son in the distance returning home, he did not wait for him to walk in the door and grovel....but ran to meet him, aware of his contrite state and knowing his feelings of humiliation.

That's not mentioned in the story. The father sees him a long way off and rejoices merely at the site of his son; not at his state of humiliation.

We have so many 'prodigals' who return to us, lessons learned and discipline appreciated. (Hebrews 12:5-6) We are saddened by the ones who only want revenge......

You'd have less to be saddened about if your sect stopped cruelly cutting people off from their friends & family.

Would it surprise you to learn that we are preparing to deal with that very situation? According to Bible prophesy, this world will soon be ruled by one world government. (It has been mooted in the UN for decades now) They will rule by the will of the nations, believing that true peace and security can only be achieved under the rule of one global government, with one set of laws for all. The first and most divisive element to be removed will be religion.

Religion should be utterly removed from government. Theocracies have always failed and are never a good thing.

It will sound like a good solution to the current state of affairs.....

Removing religion from government is a good idea. JWs have benefited from this because you're not being pursued by the forces of the state on grounds of heresy. Ironically Russia is an example of how religious governance makes things suck for JWs.

but there will be a sting in the tail. Totalitarian rule comes with enormous power, which we all know corrupts humans horribly.

Ex-JWs have found this out first hand. Micro-managing who you socialise with or don't is an example of a corrupt leadership.

There will be no activity that will not be controlled by them and enforced by a global military police force in combat gear, already trained for the job. Have you seen them?

I've seen them. I found them hiding under my bed next to the bogeyman and 'The Reds'.

People will walk into this situation with blinded eyes, believing the propaganda.....and they will rue the day they gave up their hard earned freedoms

The irony of a JW crowing about people giving up their hard-earned freedoms is palpable. What have members of your church done to contribute to earning our freedoms? You don't vote; you don't serve in the military. The only freedoms you care about are your own rights to believe as you see fit.

to achieve a pipe dream.....world peace under human control.....but it is a recipe for world chaos.

Gods, this is nihilistic - especially considering we're in an era which is actually more peaceful than any other in recent history! And you wonder why there are those of us who view Christianity as a religion that sucks the joy from the world?

There is nothing anyone can do to stop it, and this prophesy was written almost 2,000 years ago. We see it coming.....do you? Only God has the solution.

You do know preaching is forbidden here, right?

Let's not get carried away.

There was a lot of sexual abuse of children covered up in many organizations, a small percentage of cases occurred in ours in past decades.

Hold the phone. JWs are always on about how their beliefs are better than everyone else's and how it lends them moral superiority. For you to now start attempting to excuse the problems in your own sect because 'everyone else had the same problem' is utter hypocrisy. You can't put yourselves up on a pedestal above everyone else then start appealing to their failings as a reason why we shouldn't hold the Watchtower to a higher standard.

The judicial system treated it badly too, exposing the victims to cruel cross examination in the hope of getting these rock spiders off the charges, and traumatising the victims even more.

Yeah but see that's our immoral mammon-based system so we're expected to get things wrong, right? At least we're trying to resolve the problem.

What makes you think we want to cover up this crime?

'Want' may or may not come into it for the Watchtower; but

1. they're deliberately perpetuating a system that protects the perpetrator and intimidates any victims into silence;
2. in the States the Watchtower has only handed over documents detailing child abusers in its ranks on the condition that the public can't see them;
3. Memos were leaked showing the Watchtower organisation has repeatedly told its members to deal with things in such a way that they won't come to light with secular authorities;
4. The Watchtower consistently resists attempts to uncover its secret workings. Almost as if it has something to hide...

The Watchtower may not actually want to protect paedophiles in its ranks but it's walking & quacking an awful lot like a duck...

The fact is, child abuse was a difficult charge to make stick legally because there were usually no witnesses. So a lot of perps got off because they had no evidence to convict them

That's one of the worst excuses for not even trying I've ever seen.

Our elders are not the police.

Yet the Watchtower has consistently acted like they are - assigning them to investigate allegations of misconduct rather than the actual police.

And today if there is an accusation brought before them, the parents are urged to go to the police. We don't want these people in our organisation any more than anyone else.

The key words here being "and today". It's not always been this way which is a shame considering the alleged moral superiority of your creed.

You seem to be on some kind of vendetta, making accusations akin to slander. You seem to have little regard for the truth....or want to believe every sensational story your read.

And you seem willing to go to great lengths to apologise for your sect's moral failings while using everyone else's as an excuse. You're either more moral than us or you're not: pick one.

These days there are also some very media savvy kids who will bring an accusation against someone just to get back at them for something. Reputations are ruined because the mud sticks. Do you know the difference? Can you tell just by what they say?

And there are equally as strong attempts by accused organisations like yours & the Catholic Church to smear victims as grievance-mongers or liars to deflect from your own failures to act.

I see OB being very fair minded......what about you?[/QUOTE]

 

[Deeje]

Disfellowshipping is calculated to cause maximum emotional harm for no reason other than someone has dared to defy the dogmas of the Watchtower Society. None of what you said excuses this. The funny thing is you can replace almost every instance of 'God' in the above quote with 'the Watchtower Society' and it'd still hold true.




Don't try to bull**** us on this. Disfellowshipping is always a choice; these people aren't holding a gun to the elders' heads. To claim otherwise is victim-blaming nonsense. It's a cold attempt at emotional blackmail. The Watchtower can then use this potential threat as a way to keep its members in line for fear they might bring to light behaviours that could get the organisation into trouble.




Known to reasonable people as exerting peer pressure for no good reason.




You actually manage to make people who are upset about having a social network - that is cultivated to include as many JWs and as few non-JWs as possible - ripped away from them sound like they've got no reason to be upset. Wow.




How do you know this? It's not stated in the story the father didn't try any of this. That's beside the point. The fact of the matter is this fails as a justification because in this the Prodigal Son leaves of his own volition - he cut himself off. Disfellowshipping is the opposite - a deliberate isolating of a person by his social & familial groups. This sort of apologetics is more victim-blaming.




That's not mentioned in the story. The father sees him a long way off and rejoices merely at the site of his son; not at his state of humiliation.




You'd have less to be saddened about if your sect stopped cruelly cutting people off from their friends & family.





Religion should be utterly removed from government. Theocracies have always failed and are never a good thing.




Removing religion from government is a good idea. JWs have benefited from this because you're not being pursued by the forces of the state on grounds of heresy. Ironically Russia is an example of how religious governance makes things suck for JWs.




Ex-JWs have found this out first hand. Micro-managing who you socialise with or don't is an example of a corrupt leadership.




I've seen them. I found them hiding under my bed next to the bogeyman and 'The Reds'.




The irony of a JW crowing about people giving up their hard-earned freedoms is palpable. What have members of your church done to contribute to earning our freedoms? You don't vote; you don't serve in the military. The only freedoms you care about are your own rights to believe as you see fit.




Gods, this is nihilistic - especially considering we're in an era which is actually more peaceful than any other in recent history! And you wonder why there are those of us who view Christianity as a religion that sucks the joy from the world?




You do know preaching is forbidden here, right?




Hold the phone. JWs are always on about how their beliefs are better than everyone else's and how it lends them moral superiority. For you to now start attempting to excuse the problems in your own sect because 'everyone else had the same problem' is utter hypocrisy. You can't put yourselves up on a pedestal above everyone else then start appealing to their failings as a reason why we shouldn't hold the Watchtower to a higher standard.




Yeah but see that's our immoral mammon-based system so we're expected to get things wrong, right? At least we're trying to resolve the problem.




'Want' may or may not come into it for the Watchtower; but

1. they're deliberately perpetuating a system that protects the perpetrator and intimidates any victims into silence;
2. in the States the Watchtower has only handed over documents detailing child abusers in its ranks on the condition that the public can't see them;
3. Memos were leaked showing the Watchtower organisation has repeatedly told its members to deal with things in such a way that they won't come to light with secular authorities;
4. The Watchtower consistently resists attempts to uncover its secret workings. Almost as if it has something to hide...

The Watchtower may not actually want to protect paedophiles in its ranks but it's walking & quacking an awful lot like a duck...



That's one of the worst excuses for not even trying I've ever seen.




Yet the Watchtower has consistently acted like they are - assigning them to investigate allegations of misconduct rather than the actual police.




The key words here being "and today". It's not always been this way which is a shame considering the alleged moral superiority of your creed.




And you seem willing to go to great lengths to apologise for your sect's moral failings while using everyone else's as an excuse. You're either more moral than us or you're not: pick one.




And there are equally as strong attempts by accused organisations like yours & the Catholic Church to smear victims as grievance-mongers or liars to deflect from your own failures to act.

I see OB being very fair minded......what about you?

Whatever you reckon. No one is going to pop your balloon....believe whatever you wish.....because you will anyway.

 

[oldbadger]

I believe I've answered that. I was responding to a claim in the thread that the world would be a better place if everyone was a JW.

Then they will be breaking the law of Russia. An unjust discriminatory law.

I imagine I would be bitter, upset and have a deep distrust. I had an unpleasant experience with a religious organisation as a child and have a deep distrust of all religious organisations.

There has never been "all is right" in the world but I do believe in general it is getting better.

Thanks for your answers, John.
Question: Are you able to tell more about your unpleasant experience as a child..... the religious one?

One fundamental fact which slowly got beaten into my poor slow brain over the years, was that people would often reduce the import of allegations made against friends, and increase the import of allegations made against enemies.

A good demonstration of this can be seen on this thread. An organisation hands over a lot of files which recorded investigations after allegations, and its enemies hold these up as proven cases, when in fact there are only two proven cases of child abuse in which the JWs chucked one defendant out, and allowed the second to recluse himself from the eldership.

In the UK the government has finally seen common sense and got ride of proposed legislation that would have made it a crime if teachers did not report every claim of abuse made by children. In that case the government is clearly aware that it would have to pay zillions each year for the slanders caused by agrieved kids telling tales. We will accept the ruling for schools but some of us want to rip-up religions caught in the same difficult decision-roles because they are unpopular.

This morning a football coach is reported to have been convicted and caged for serial child abuse over decades dating from the 70's. (Newcastle United). Will we be ripping up football clubs that coach kids next week? No! 'Cos football's ok........

 

[oldbadger]

You're glossing over the fact that they only handed over the information after a Royal Commission was formed and they had no other real choice. Some of the cases dated back to the 1950's (from memory, don't have to time to check the actual date, 6.30am here and I'm making breakfast for the wife, it's her birthday).

..... uh uh......... some of the claims.....
......please say 'Happy Birthday' to your wife from a thorny old B in England.

I wouldn't like it but that's why we have courts. And that's a hypothetical, we could trade them forever.

No you don't........... None of these cases but one were ever tried in a criminal court. The rest are just claims, allegations..... I used to collect evidence for defence lawyers to eat allegations for breakfast.

As with all new policies I'm sure there has to be some fine tuning and adjustments. Personally I feel that if someone knows of child abuse and doesn't do everything legally in their power to stop it they are as guilty as the predator. I couldn't believe when I heard people saying that everyone knew about Saville and Harris. Why didn't they stop them?

But 'someone' doesn't 'know' of child abuse.
Knowing about a crime and hearing about an allegation are totally differing conditions.
Our government has obviously clicked on to this, at the point where some brain has explained just how much money in slander payouts it could be facing...... is my guess.

If the report of a royal commission that there were 1,006 unreported cases doesn't impress you then I got nothing. Royal commissions are at the top of our judiciary system so I guess that's it for me.

No there were not.
The report shows that the JWs openly declared every investigation for half a century...... of allegations.
If I had a quid for every parent-child interview I have attended where the child agreed that observations, experiences, claims were made up then I could bid much higher for that toy outboard that at want at auction this week!
Children say stuff for all manner of reasons. Truth, Reality, Attention, Anger, Fear, Greed, Love, Hate....... a bit like people, I'm sad to say. But enemies will always grab unproven claims to drown those whom they hate.

 

[oldbadger]

My Mum has had 2 melanomas cut out in the last 10 years? Us3d to be a practical death sentence, but here she is hitting the 5 year survival mark twice. I'm very glad your lungs are ok. I'm not afraid of dying, but dying of cancer scares me.

Good luck to you and your Mum, both.
If I think about it I reckon that I'm scared of lots of things...... mostly connected to pain and undetected phobias, I suppose.

But I wasn't scared at the 18-10-17' appointment with that consultant. I told my wife before we walked in to the meeting that I would definitely complete a whole mass of stuff to make her life easier at home, in case I should croak, and that 'here and now' is all that should matter to us. And by the way, on the Thursday after that meeting I started out to complete a whole list of jobs for her ease and safety at home which I had never thought of before......... a proper staircase into the roof, easier method of pumping and cleaning the pond, new fence panels..... blah blah.... it's amazing what a health scare can make you do.

 

[John53]

Thanks for your answers, John.
Question: Are you able to tell more about your unpleasant experience as a child..... the religious one?

Long ago, best forgotten and no real bearing on this discussion. If you really need to know PM me.

One fundamental fact which slowly got beaten into my poor slow brain over the years, was that people would often reduce the import of allegations made against friends, and increase the import of allegations made against enemies.

Human nature I guess, personally I find it hurts more coming from those you consider a friend.

A good demonstration of this can be seen on this thread. An organisation hands over a lot of files which recorded investigations after allegations, and its enemies hold these up as proven cases, when in fact there are only two proven cases of child abuse in which the JWs chucked one defendant out, and allowed the second to recluse himself from the eldership.

Quite the coincidence they decided to hand over the files only when the Royal Commission was started. 2 cases were used in the RC, it would have been impossible for the RC to investigate everyone, even the 1,006 JW ones would take many years, possibly decades. Then throw in the Anglican, Catholic, Hillsong, Baptist etc etc

In the UK the government has finally seen common sense and got ride of proposed legislation that would have made it a crime if teachers did not report every claim of abuse made by children. In that case the government is clearly aware that it would have to pay zillions each year for the slanders caused by agrieved kids telling tales. We will accept the ruling for schools but some of us want to rip-up religions caught in the same difficult decision-roles because they are unpopular.

I don't accept the ruling for schools and to the best of my knowledge it is not the case here.

This morning a football coach is reported to have been convicted and caged for serial child abuse over decades dating from the 70's. (Newcastle United). Will we be ripping up football clubs that coach kids next week? No! 'Cos football's ok........

Or could it be because a footy coach hasn't said the world would be a better place if everyone was a footy coach. Or maybe society expects a little more from those who claim to represent a God.

 

[John53]

No you don't........... None of these cases but one were ever tried in a criminal court. The rest are just claims, allegations..... I used to collect evidence for defence lawyers to eat allegations for breakfast.

Exactly because they were never reported to be investigated. That was the point of the Royal Commission. Maybe the JW's in Australia should have hired you, apparently their defence team let them down.

But 'someone' doesn't 'know' of child abuse.
Knowing about a crime and hearing about an allegation are totally differing conditions.

You really believe that? No one knew about Savile and Harris?

Our government has obviously clicked on to this, at the point where some brain has explained just how much money in slander payouts it could be facing...... is my guess.

Hopefully my Govt doesn't wimp out.

No there were not.
The report shows that the JWs openly declared every investigation for half a century...... of allegations.

If you consider "openly" to cover being ordered to by a RC

If I had a quid for every parent-child interview I have attended where the child agreed that observations, experiences, claims were made up then I could bid much higher for that toy outboard that at want at auction this week!
Children say stuff for all manner of reasons. Truth, Reality, Attention, Anger, Fear, Greed, Love, Hate....... a bit like people, I'm sad to say.

I really don't get your point. Because some children tell lies sexual predators should be able to carry on?

But enemies will always grab unproven claims to drown those whom they hate.

So you're claiming they are simply martyrs?

 

[oldbadger]

Long ago, best forgotten and no real bearing on this discussion. If you really need to know PM me.

No probs......... sleeping dogs......

Human nature I guess, personally I find it hurts more coming from those you consider a friend.

All my life........ supposed friends betraying, and then total strangers rebuilding my faith in human nature.

Quite the coincidence they decided to hand over the files only when the Royal Commission was started. 2 cases were used in the RC, it would have been impossible for the RC to investigate everyone, even the 1,006 JW ones would take many years, possibly decades. Then throw in the Anglican, Catholic, Hillsong, Baptist etc etc

You think they should have disclosed private documents BEFORE any RC was started? Wow! Have you ever heard of the Data Protection Acts of the World?
And are you telling me that the RC couldn't be biothered to carry out a proper and thorough investigation........ 'Oh let'#s just do two....... that should satisfy everyone.'

I don't accept the ruling for schools and to the best of my knowledge it is not the case here.

I see it as clear as day. I trained security ops, Store tecs and retail investigators for years. Ops would often call me for advise over jobs and incidents and this often extended to 'My spouse hurt me again! Can you help me?!' And 'No' I couldn't blooming help them, other than to tell 'em to actually call the police, make an allegation, write a statement, support a prosecution and to attend Court to give evidence............. which in tens and scores of cases over the years VERY FEW of them ever did to completion; they would duck out at some point, wasting police time and leaving supporters high and dry to be accused of defamation and causing trouble.

Or could it be because a footy coach hasn't said the world would be a better place if everyone was a footy coach. Or maybe society expects a little more from those who claim to represent a God.

Yeah, and you got that wrong n all......
My lonely friend and neighbour has often thought about the JWs but the JWs who visit him don't promise him anything but a lifetime of service, knocking on doors, contention and even confrontation sometimes. Yes they offer friendship and brotherhood, but so far that hasn't been enough for him because he just does not believe what JWs believe in total.

That Coach was probably offering a lifetime of fame, popularity, wealth, freedom, posh clothes, smart cars and fun. Heaven on Earth....... think about it.
But do you think that Newcastle United will have lost any supporters next week?

 

[oldbadger]

Exactly because they were never reported to be investigated. That was the point of the Royal Commission. Maybe the JW's in Australia should have hired you, apparently their defence team let them down.

It wasn't a criminal court case, but a research/report action.
And now, after that report, how many criminal cases will result from it?

You really believe that? No one knew about Savile and Harris?

They knew all right. But it was no religion that could be blamed. Savile was very close to influential folks who belonged to the same secret society that he did, but nobody is ready yet, or dares to talk about such matters further.

Because Savile and Harris were perpetrators of serious criminal offences this does not mean that we should convict every suspect, every alleged offence.

Each allegation needs to be investigated on its own merits, not on the history of Savile's crimes.

Hopefully my Govt doesn't wimp out.

Hopefully your government will hold on to its code of a fair investigation, fair trial and true verdict for each case....... on its own merits.

If you consider "openly" to cover being ordered to by a RC

Yes........ once an order has been served upon a body, institution, company etc it can obey it, completely free of any complaints or redress over UNLAWFUL DISCLOSURE.

I really don't get your point. Because some children tell lies sexual predators should be able to carry on?

No! Because some children tell lies all claims must be investigated with care. See?

So you're claiming they are simply martyrs?

No. Around here the JWs are growing in numbers so fast that they've had to split up their Sunday meetings into 'West Town' and 'East Town' services, and the Kingdom Hall is very big, only completed a decade ago.
They're building a huge national centre at Chelmsford, England which is just vast.......... JWs here go to work upon it which is how I know about it.

If the JWs were martyrs you could be burying them......... I reckon you can leave your shovel in the shed.

 

[John53]

All my life........ supposed friends betraying, and then total strangers rebuilding my faith in human nature.

Sorry to hear that, it has happened to me on the odd occasion but not nearly enough to really trouble me. Although I'm fairly laid back (some might say lazy), getting angry over something I won't even remember in a few years is too much effort.

You think they should have disclosed private documents BEFORE any RC was started?

No, there should have been no files to drag out, they should have been referred to the police at the time.

Wow!

Woohoo!

Have you ever heard of the Data Protection Acts of the World?

No.

And are you telling me that the RC couldn't be biothered to carry out a proper and thorough investigation........ 'Oh let'#s just do two....... that should satisfy everyone.'

No, i child sexual assault wasn't covered up by institutions there would have been no need for a RC

I see it as clear as day. I trained security ops, Store tecs and retail investigators for years. Ops would often call me for advise over jobs and incidents and this often extended to 'My spouse hurt me again! Can you help me?!' And 'No' I couldn't blooming help them, other than to tell 'em to actually call the police, make an allegation, write a statement, support a prosecution and to attend Court to give evidence............. which in tens and scores of cases over the years VERY FEW of them ever did to completion; they would duck out at some point, wasting police time and leaving supporters high and dry to be accused of defamation and causing trouble.

Not relevant, you're talking about adults.

Yeah, and you got that wrong n all......
My lonely friend and neighbour has often thought about the JWs but the JWs who visit him don't promise him anything but a lifetime of service, knocking on doors, contention and even confrontation sometimes. Yes they offer friendship and brotherhood, but so far that hasn't been enough for him because he just does not believe what JWs believe in total.

And you know this because you've been there for each and every conversation?

That Coach was probably offering a lifetime of fame, popularity, wealth, freedom, posh clothes, smart cars and fun. Heaven on Earth....... think about it.

Thinking, thinking, thinking....

But do you think that Newcastle United will have lost any supporters next week?

Can't answer that. I don't know the details of the case, if the club cover up his crimes, if club officials had knowledge of his crimes and let him carry on....

 

[John53]

It wasn't a criminal court case, but a research/report action.
And now, after that report, how many criminal cases will result from it?

The wheels of justice move slowly and I imagine the sheer number of cases is overwhelming but there was a Catholic Bishop sentenced for covering child abuse crimes a few days ago.

They knew all right.

Then I do not understand your previous post at all.

But it was no religion that could be blamed.

No one has blamed religion.

Savile was very close to influential folks who belonged to the same secret society that he did, but nobody is ready yet, or dares to talk about such matters further.

Any evidence of this?

Because Savile and Harris were perpetrators of serious criminal offences this does not mean that we should convict every suspect, every alleged offence.

No one has asked that they are, only investigated by the proper authorities, not friends of the accused or those wanting to protect the reputation of their organisation.

Each allegation needs to be investigated on its own merits, not on the history of Savile's crimes.

Yes, what lead you to believe I said any different?

Hopefully your government will hold on to its code of a fair investigation, fair trial and true verdict for each case....... on its own merits.

How can there be a fair trial if nothing is reported? Strange logic...

Yes........ once an order has been served upon a body, institution, company etc it can obey it, completely free of any complaints or redress over UNLAWFUL DISCLOSURE.

So no crime should be reported unless ordered to do so by a RC?

No! Because some children tell lies all claims must be investigated with care. See?

Haven't said any different, you were the one claiming the opposite.

No. Around here the JWs are growing in numbers so fast that they've had to split up their Sunday meetings into 'West Town' and 'East Town' services, and the Kingdom Hall is very big, only completed a decade ago.
They're building a huge national centre at Chelmsford, England which is just vast.......... JWs here go to work upon it which is how I know about it.

Great but what's your point? In Australia "no religion" is the only one growing, at the last census they actually became the majority.

If the JWs were martyrs you could be burying them......... I reckon you can leave your shovel in the shed.

Ok.