Jehovah's Witnesses continuing persecution in Russia....

[John53]

Oh John......!
On Sunday our water got cut off.. after raising my water charges by about 400% this year.

Mine was cut off for the day yesterday for infrastructure maintenance, 2nd time in about a month but they give plenty of warning so not really much of a problem, I'd sooner go a day without water than a day without electricity. On the other hand we went for 2 weeks without water after a massive storm 3 years ago, that was tough. The town was cut off by road for a week of that and we had no water, phones or electricity. They brought water in by boat and we got 2 x 1 litre bottles per household per day. That was ok for us to have a cuppa, clean our teeth etc but two of the families in the street had toddlers on formula. The real crisis came when I ran out of beer on day 3, it still troubles me

No JW ever promised me anything....... but the bloody water people did.

I don't remember speaking to any of them that didn't promise me paradise or death.

 

[John53]

John, they cover up anything which might cause them difficulty or loss of face.
During the 70's and 80's our doctors and hospitals were prescribing Eplipsy drugs which affect pregnant women's unborn babies like thalidomide did before. Unlike the Oz doctor who discovered the thalidomide tragedy the authorities here covered up the thousands of cases of disabled babies and in the extreme cases they sent very senior personnel out to convince the shocked parents to accept a 'professional' decision to put the babies on 'feed on demand'. Such babies don't call for food. Problem reduced.
Last October about 100 disabled people were bringing a court action against the government for the cause of their injuries in a test case. One week before the Court case the government withdrew legal aid funding which closed down the entire case, thus protecting from the several thousands of sufferers who awaited the legal outcome.

No idea what this has to do with child sexual abuse. Do you hate the medical professions? They have featured heavily in your examples. I am very grateful to hospitals, doctors and nurses. I would have been dead in 1998 if not for them, my daughter was 10 then and I've got to watch her grow into a 30 year old woman I'm very proud of. But I'm sure as with every other group there are some evil people.

It's a very wicked World, as you no doubt know, and I really cannot bring myself up to any feelings of heat over the fact that some JWs have been bad.

Very wicked world, really? I don't think so. For me life is great and seems to get better all the time.

 

[John53]

Let's not get carried away.

There was a lot of sexual abuse of children covered up in many organizations, a small percentage of cases occurred in ours in past decades. But there is now a whole different attitude towards this crime. Believe it or not about the middle of last century (we were around then) not only was there was a completely different attitude towards it, but we hardly ever heard of it. Only when damaged victims were committing suicide and suffering from PTSD did authorities take this crime more seriously. It has taken getting into a new century to refine the way things are handled. Why do you think it took so long to prosecute the perpetrators? We are going back decades.

The judicial system treated it badly too, exposing the victims to cruel cross examination in the hope of getting these rock spiders off the charges, and traumatising the victims even more.

What makes you think we want to cover up this crime?

The fact is, child abuse was a difficult charge to make stick legally because there were usually no witnesses. So a lot of perps got off because they had no evidence to convict them......now they do. Now that child psychologists are involved, it is easier to bring charges and to prosecute the abuser.

Our elders are not the police. And today if there is an accusation brought before them, the parents are urged to go to the police. We don't want these people in our organisation any more than anyone else.

Oh really? The JW's covered up child sexual abuse to protect the children? You've got to be kidding me.

You seem to be on some kind of vendetta, making accusations akin to slander. You seem to have little regard for the truth....or want to believe every sensational story your read.

The only thing I've read is the Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse. Please quote the slander I've posted or withdraw your comment.

These days there are also some very media savvy kids who will bring an accusation against someone just to get back at them for something. Reputations are ruined because the mud sticks. Do you know the difference? Can you tell just by what they say?

I really have no idea what you're talking about but if a child came to me claiming they had been sexually assaulted I would go to the police.

I see OB being very fair minded......what about you?

OB seems like a nice bloke but some of his arguments are biased nonsense and he tends to avoid the point but can't hold that against him because those defending the indefensible often do.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Super! Thankyou!
So on an agenda-driven communication there were about 12 deaths dating back to 1971. Got it.

Only someone with an agenda themselves would assume that list is complete. Those are only the stories that got media attention (most don’t) that happened to be passed along to that web site (most aren’t).

How about deaths caused by incompetence, carelessness, negligence?

How about you actually answer my question?

The Watchtower Society’s “two witnesses” rule protects JWs who commit crimes in private, including people who abuse children.

Do you think it’s good or bad to protect people who abuse children? This shouldn’t be a hard question to answer.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

OK......... My JW visitor had a big operation two years ago. The whole procedure was supported by the infusion of plasmas. The Blood transfusion problem occurs less and less these days, or so I'm told.

There are aspects of that religion which I worry about, but it's their faith......... and the public have never bothered to research it, and so all they scream about is 'them lot kills their kids!'

It's rather like me screaming 'In the US they like guns, which kill 80 people every day!'...... Oh..... hang on..... that's really true.

I don't begrudge JWs their faith. I support people's right to believe anything they like. It's their demonstrated tendency to attack OTHER people's faith that I tend to have more of a problem with.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

My definition of fantasy is making wild claims about something you can't prove whilst expecting people to accept what you believe is true even though you have only flimsy circumstantial evidence and biased interpretation of said evidence to back it up. We get accused of that all the time....but the truth is, it applies equally to the science of macro-evolution.

That is why I find the "Science is based on repeatable experiment and observation of tangible phenomena" to be rather laughable actually because what 'experiments and tangible evidence' are we talking about when it applies to macro-evolution? "Might have" or "could have" or "this leads us to believe that..." is not exactly scientific language now, is it? Yet that is all I see in the science that I have been presented with to support this theory.

You have "experiments" in a laboratory that give scientists "evidence" (the real kind) that adaptation can take place within single taxonomic families of creatures. When I look up "speciation" what do I see? Evidence for evolution? NO! I see adaptation in creatures because of changes in their environment or food source. I see new varieties of creatures or organisms in the same family, but adapted to new surroundings. What I don't see is one family of creatures crossing over (or morphing) into something else. And let's face it, if evolution were true, we should see an awful lot of evidence for that. But we don't.

Did the fruit flies become anything other than a new variety of fruit flies.....or the stickleback fish become anything other than a new variety of that particular species of fish. What did Darwin see? Exactly that. The finches were still finches. The tortoises were still tortoises and the iguanas were still iguanas just adapted to island life and food. Nothing more. The rest was based on imagination.

If science wants us to believe that single called organisms can morph themselves into dinosaurs, just by adding several million years to the equation, then I'm sorry but your fantasy is harder to believe than mine is.

How does science "know" what happened all those millions of years ago? They guess......they assume....and they suggest. Is that real science.....or is it science fiction based on wishful thinking? A good diagram does not take the place of solid evidence.

I know what I think......but you are free to believe whatever fantasy they want you to accept. Just don't tell me that they can prove any of it because all the evolutionists tell me the same thing...there is no proof in science......if there is no way to prove what they say, what does that make it? Fantasy

You can make up whatever imaginary definition of fantasy you like. That isn't what the actual definition of fantasy is, though. Your false dichotomy, that there is either "fantasy" and "things that are proven" basically means everything is fantasy. Which isn't how things work. False dichotomies make baby Jesus cry.

Hey, believe what you want, be my absolute guest. It's that you seem determined to trick other people into believing this, with all due respect, made up nonsense, is what bothers me.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Let's not get carried away.

There was a lot of sexual abuse of children covered up in many organizations, a small percentage of cases occurred in ours in past decades. But there is now a whole different attitude towards this crime. Believe it or not about the middle of last century (we were around then) not only was there was a completely different attitude towards it, but we hardly ever heard of it. Only when damaged victims were committing suicide and suffering from PTSD did authorities take this crime more seriously. It has taken getting into a new century to refine the way things are handled. Why do you think it took so long to prosecute the perpetrators? We are going back decades.

The judicial system treated it badly too, exposing the victims to cruel cross examination in the hope of getting these rock spiders off the charges, and traumatising the victims even more.

What makes you think we want to cover up this crime?

The fact is, child abuse was a difficult charge to make stick legally because there were usually no witnesses. So a lot of perps got off because they had no evidence to convict them......now they do. Now that child psychologists are involved, it is easier to bring charges and to prosecute the abuser.

Our elders are not the police. And today if there is an accusation brought before them, the parents are urged to go to the police. We don't want these people in our organisation any more than anyone else. You seem to be on some kind of vendetta, making accusations akin to slander. You seem to have little regard for the truth....or want to believe every sensational story your read.

These days there are also some very media savvy kids who will bring an accusation against someone just to get back at them for something. Reputations are ruined because the mud sticks. Do you know the difference? Can you tell just by what they say?

I see OB being very fair minded......what about you?

Sooooo... trying to read between the tapdancing... what you're saying is you still require two witnesses, yes?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I don't begrudge JWs their faith. I support people's right to believe anything they like. It's their demonstrated tendency to attack OTHER people's faith that I tend to have more of a problem with.

Case in point...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Our elders are not the police. And today if there is an accusation brought before them, the parents are urged to go to the police.

When was this policy introduced? Since 2015?

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/ne...d-brother-shunned-jehovahs-witnesses-10233281

 

[Audie]

Oh really? The JW's covered up child sexual abuse to protect the children? You've got to be kidding me.



The only thing I've read is the Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse. Please quote the slander I've posted or withdraw your comment.



I really have no idea what you're talking about but if a child came to me claiming they had been sexually assaulted I would go to the police.


OB seems like a nice bloke but some of his arguments are biased nonsense and he tends to avoid the point but can't hold that against him because those defending the indefensible often do.

Actually, seeing "defend the indefensible" in action has its own value.

 

[oldbadger]

Exactly and my point from the beginning, good and evil in all groups of people and if I see MP's or Sports Coaches on here claiming the world would be a better place if everyone was a MP or Sports Coach then I'll point this out to them.

Yeah, but if any of them were in seriously tight situations in another land you wouldn't start to dig up the dirt on them, clearly showing that you don't acknowledge their outstanding faith and bravery. Yes?

Posted it earlier in the thread but here goes again, this is just Australia. https://www.childabuseroyalcommissi...eport-jehovahs-witness-organisations-released

Thankyou. I will research that to discover exactly what the allegations are this evening and tonite. I notice that no corroboration is required..... one witness only. Many countries wouldn't accept that. Oh well, let's see what it all says.

 

[oldbadger]

No idea what this has to do with child sexual abuse.

And I have no idea what claims against a minority of Witnesses has to do with the thread title that JWs in Ruissia are being frightfully abused by a government which has a harsh history of treating minorities.
And yet I'll bet that JWs in Russia will continue to door knock and meet in Kingdom Halls no matter what.
For sheer guts these folks are the business.

Do you hate the medical professions? They have featured heavily in your examples. I am very grateful to hospitals, doctors and nurses. I would have been dead in 1998 if not for them, my daughter was 10 then and I've got to watch her grow into a 30 year old woman I'm very proud of. But I'm sure as with every other group there are some evil people.

Ha ha! Yes, with every group, but you don't like JWs so let's hang 'em for close scrutiny and criticism, eh?
Question: If your health system had lost your second son (76')through negligence and covered up the true facts behind that loss for forty years (Oct 2017) , how would you feel then?
Question: If your doctor had raped your wife under some hypnosis or other, but the hospital snuck him away..... how would you feel?

As it happens the 'Pheo' team at Kings, London saved my wife's life back in 2014 so things are beginning to even out somewhat.

Very wicked world, really? I don't think so. For me life is great and seems to get better all the time.

Bully for you, John. Life is great for me as well.
But you're not watching the News if you think all is right with the big wide world.

 

[oldbadger]

Only someone with an agenda themselves would assume that list is complete. Those are only the stories that got media attention (most don’t) that happened to be passed along to that web site (most aren’t).

Ha ha!
So what's my agenda, eh? I'm a Deist! I even know atheists who snuggle up to that title.
Agenda............ joke.

How about you actually answer my question?

The Watchtower Society’s “two witnesses” rule protects JWs who commit crimes in private, including people who abuse children.

Do you think it’s good or bad to protect people who abuse children? This shouldn’t be a hard question to answer.

What's the rule in Canada!
The two witnesses rule is not a bad rule.
I can think of countries which require one witness PLUS CORROBORATION, and I expect that would count as a second witness.

If you got accused of a sexual assault by an employee (for instance) and it was going for criminal trial, would you trust a system that would convict you on just that victim's evidence?

And for folks here who have turned a thread about JWs being in serious dangers in a foreign country into a sex-crime witch-hunt I don't think you really deserve to get to demand answers top your every question'.

These people won't duck below the horizon..... they didn't in the Nazi death camps and they won't in Russia. Oh let's have a rant..... why not. There are 7 million JWs in the World....... how many convictions have there been over sex crimes.
CONVICTIONS...... anybody can make allegations.

 

[oldbadger]

I don't begrudge JWs their faith. I support people's right to believe anything they like. It's their demonstrated tendency to attack OTHER people's faith that I tend to have more of a problem with.

OK...... True...... although my JW friends don't actually say anything against other beliefs, they just go kind of serious and quiet at such mentions, a kind of friendship diplomacy I suppose.

I went to a healer on Monday 16th October last, and on Wednesday 18th October the cancer specialist looked at all the many many test results and in surprised amazement told me and my wife that there was nothing there. I don't know, of course, but I sure do wonder. When I m,entioned this to my JW visitors they just looked sort of ...'serious indigestion'.... [

Armoured, I'm told that there are over 3000 Christian Creeds, and I'll bet that not one of them reckons the others are right. And the several Muslim religions reckon that the others are all total apostates or worse. I only seems to be the far Eastern religions that accommodate other lifestyles and beliefs, but even they can be grouchy.

As a Deist I'm just interested in other folk's religions...... apart from far-right-zealot, white supremacist, fundy-Christians..... I'll stop short before that lot.

 

[Audie]

Ha ha!
So what's my agenda, eh? I'm a Deist! I even know atheists who snuggle up to that title.
Agenda............ joke.


What's the rule in Canada!
The two witnesses rule is not a bad rule.
I can think of countries which require one witness PLUS CORROBORATION, and I expect that would count as a second witness.

If you got accused of a sexual assault by an employee (for instance) and it was going for criminal trial, would you trust a system that would convict you on just that victim's evidence?

And for folks here who have turned a thread about JWs being in serious dangers in a foreign country into a sex-crime witch-hunt I don't think you really deserve to get to demand answers top your every question'.

These people won't duck below the horizon..... they didn't in the NAZI death camps and they won't in Russia. Oh let's have a rant..... why not. There are 7 million JWs in the World....... how many convictions have there been over sex crimes.
CONVICTIONS...... anybody can make allegations.

Aww, a Godwin.

(Bold added, on the nazi bit)

 

[Audie]

OK...... True...... although my JW friends don't actually say anything against other beliefs, they just go kind of serious and quiet at such mentions, a kind of friendship diplomacy I suppose.

I went to a healer on Monday 16th October last, and on Wednesday 18th October the cancer specialist looked at all the many many test results and in surprised amazement told me and my wife that there was nothing there. I don't know, of course, but I sure do wonder. When I m,entioned this to my JW visitors they just looked sort of ...'serious indigestion'.... [

Armoured, I'm told that there are over 3000 Christian Creeds, and I'll bet that not one of them reckons the others are right. And the several Muslim religions reckon that the others are all total apostates or worse. I only seems to be the far Eastern religions that accommodate other lifestyles and beliefs, but even they can be grouchy.

As a Deist I'm just interested in other folk's religions...... apart from far-right-zealot, white supremacist, fundy-Christians..... I'll stop short before that lot.

Yeah, I mean, who can tolerate the views of them bigots?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ha ha!
So what's my agenda, eh? I'm a Deist! I even know atheists who snuggle up to that title.
Agenda............ joke.

I have no idea what your agenda is. I just know that your reactions in this thread aren't consistent with dispassionate detachment.

What's the rule in Canada!
The two witnesses rule is not a bad rule.
I can think of countries which require one witness PLUS CORROBORATION, and I expect that would count as a second witness.

If you got accused of a sexual assault by an employee (for instance) and it was going for criminal trial, would you trust a system that would convict you on just that victim's evidence?

So you're okay with telling pedophiles that if they attack a kid when there's nobody else around, they won't be punished? You think this is a good rule?

And for folks here who have turned a thread about JWs being in serious dangers in a foreign country into a sex-crime witch-hunt I don't think you really deserve to get to demand answers top your every question'.

These people won't duck below the horizon..... they didn't in the Nazi death camps and they won't in Russia. Oh let's have a rant..... why not. There are 7 million JWs in the World....... how many convictions have there been over sex crimes.
CONVICTIONS...... anybody can make allegations.

Because of JW practices like the two witness rule and shunning members who go to the police, the number of convictions is certainly much less than the number of actual abuse cases.

And yes: Russia shouldn't be imprisoning JWs. Still, I have trouble making it a higher priority than the persecution of other groups that haven't hurt people like the JWs have, like the crackdown against LGBT people in Chechnya, or the murders of atheist bloggers in Bangladesh, or the killing of Rohingya Muslims in Burma. Helping those people isn't enabling harm the way that helping JWs is.

 

[Audie]

I have no idea what your agenda is. I just know that your reactions in this thread aren't consistent with dispassionate detachment.


So you're okay with telling pedophiles that if they attack a kid when there's nobody else around, they won't be punished? You think this is a good rule?


Because of JW practices like the two witness rule and shunning members who go to the police, the number of convictions is certainly much less than the number of actual abuse cases.

And yes: Russia shouldn't be imprisoning JWs. Still, I have trouble making it a higher priority than the persecution of other groups that haven't hurt people like the JWs have, like the crackdown against LGBT people in Chechnya, or the murders of atheist bloggers in Bangladesh, or the killing of Rohingya Muslims in Burma. Helping those people isn't enabling harm the way that helping JWs is.

Excessive force is always, well, excessive.

If China and Russis choose to use all necessary
means to curb the spread of subversive cults,
their choice is theirs.

What country does otherwise?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

OK...... True...... although my JW friends don't actually say anything against other beliefs, they just go kind of serious and quiet at such mentions, a kind of friendship diplomacy I suppose.

I went to a healer on Monday 16th October last, and on Wednesday 18th October the cancer specialist looked at all the many many test results and in surprised amazement told me and my wife that there was nothing there. I don't know, of course, but I sure do wonder. When I m,entioned this to my JW visitors they just looked sort of ...'serious indigestion'.... [

Armoured, I'm told that there are over 3000 Christian Creeds, and I'll bet that not one of them reckons the others are right. And the several Muslim religions reckon that the others are all total apostates or worse. I only seems to be the far Eastern religions that accommodate other lifestyles and beliefs, but even they can be grouchy.

As a Deist I'm just interested in other folk's religions...... apart from far-right-zealot, white supremacist, fundy-Christians..... I'll stop short before that lot.

I think it's great to learn about other people's beliefs, but there's a difference between being told about what someone believes, and being beaten over the head with it, if you follow. I'm very happy to hear you have JW friends, that's great. My wife works with a couple and gets on with them well enough. My personal experience with them has been... less amicable, I fear. Either I'm too pedantic to let nonsense go unquestioned, or I keep encountering the "beat you over the head" types. Either way, I haven't been impressed particularly.

So you had cancer? I'm glad to hear you're in remission, if so!

 

[oldbadger]

Posted it earlier in the thread but here goes again, this is just Australia. https://www.childabuseroyalcommissi...eport-jehovahs-witness-organisations-released

Two cases!

All of the other allegations including those two were documented upon files in the possession of the JWs which were all handed to the commission.

The two cases involved allegations, investigations and one criminal trial in the abbreviated names of BCG and BCB. No details of the sexual assaults alleged were described to the Royal Commission as far as I could see.
CASE ONE:-
Although BCG's allegations and evidence were considered to be inadequate the JWs disfellowshipped her Father, and after a two year period he was readmitted to the order. 10 years later after the victim had decided to leave the JWs she reported the offences to the police and her father was tried and convicted.

CASE TWO:-
BCB's allegations were about an elder who, after the JW investigation stepped down as an elder. It does not look as if BCB reported any crimes to the police.


Would you like to comment upon these two cases or add ANY detail about the other allegations which the JWs investigated, kept on file, and handed to the commission?