jbug and Meow on God

[Meow Mix]

Here's the general discussion thread for comments, questions, etc.

 

[Reptillian]

So, what I am ultimately driving at is this:
The God of Abraham is a Man, which term I'll need to elucidate upon further.

There is a quote that Mormons no longer seem to repeat:
"As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become."

This reluctance is because Mormons have rejected the core doctrine of God's true nature their founding prophet Joseph Smith Jun. gave them that (I alledge) would have remedied the centuries old fantasies that are an affront to a rational self-respecting person.

Somehow Mormons now think they are merely having minor quibbles of difference with Christians where these doctrines are concerned. Yet, they have reverted for the most part to the centuries old precepts of men with slightly altered semantics.

So, it will be important that you give me a fresh listening to truly understand how I have come to relate to my God.

Comments?

This description of God reminds me of Q from Star Trek:

[youtube]lNwzawXu4v8[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNwzawXu4v8

 

[Katzpur]

I'd just like everybody who is following the debate to ask themselves if jbug reminds them of anybody who used to post here on RF under another name.

 

[Gloone]

Maybe, maybe not. I can't remember.

 

[PolyHedral]

This description of God reminds me of Q from Star Trek:
[vid snipped to save bandwidth]

Maybe the true prophet is actually Gene Roddenberry, rather than the Gospels?

 

[Vendetta]

Nice discussion however having trouble following JB's.concept of God being literally human. I thought in the monotheistic sense, God was (is) incorporeal and is that which precedes the first cause?

 

[Katzpur]

Nice discussion however having trouble following JB's.concept of God being literally human. I thought in the monotheistic sense, God was (is) incorporeal and is that which precedes the first cause?

I haven't actually been following the thread. I'm pretty sure it would drive me to drink, and Mormons aren't supposed to drink. Anyway, I don't know if jbug said that God is "literally human" (in those exact words), but according to LDS doctrine, God has a human form. Mormons do not believe that God is a human being, though, because human beings are mortal, and God is immortal. He is an immortal, glorified, celestial being in whose image man was created.

 

[Vendetta]

I haven't actually been following the thread. I'm pretty sure it would drive me to drink, and Mormons aren't supposed to drink. Anyway, I don't know if jbug said that God is "literally human" (in those exact words), but according to LDS doctrine, God has a human form. Mormons do not believe that God is a human being, though, because human beings are mortal, and God is immortal. He is an immortal, glorified, celestial being in whose image man was created.

So do LDS have an anthromorphic view of God then?

 

[Katzpur]

So do LDS have an anthromorphic view of God then?

Yes, we do.

 

[Gloone]

Well after the end of round one I think Jbug happen to escape with some minor flesh wounds, and was battered, beaten and bruised. Kind of like his whitewater rafting trip. That seems to be the telltale sign of how this debate has been is going, and to put a damper on things, the whole Ultra chicken squishing the measly mini-wannabe-ULTRA_CHICKEN really added a 1-2 K.O. to the head of Jbug, because he was dazed, possibly confused then laughed and forgot to respond to it.

All I have to say is; Arise!@#$ Arise Chicken!@# Arise…… Repeat after me; “I am Sofa King, we todd ed.” Not so fast, it lose its meaning! Ewoohhhoooohoooo… you say funny thing.

That is hilarious. I could laugh for hours watching that and for you bring that into a debate…. Whoa!@$ That is all I have to say is Whoa!@$ I think you just knocked the socks off of someone MM. I wonder how long you have been holding that one in. Alright, I am done. I might do some more play-by-play announcements later if this debate continues, but as of right now I don’t think it will be going much further.

So I will start giving the 10 count.

10 - 9 - 8 - 7 - 6 ....

 

[Gloone]

MM has given you a golden opportunity Jbug and asking for you to provide some rational reason or thought for a belief in a being such as god and how to convince her that it is possible to believe in one without it being irrational. Taking leaps of faith isn’t going work. And telling her that she just has to take that leap isn’t rational in the least bit. That definitely isn't a way to win a debate. Remember you are debating. It is the one-on-one debate section. You mentioned a few key points, but didn’t expound on them and some of the ones you gave were irrational like MM mentioned. Again MM isn’t asking for much and is actually making it quite easy for you. It is a simple request and doesn’t seem like it should be that hard of a concept to grasp. If you can’t provide a valid reason why it is worth believing in something such as what you believe then why should others do the same?

 

[kylixguru]

MM has given you a golden opportunity Jbug and asking for you to provide some rational reason or thought for a belief in a being such as god and how to convince her that it is possible to believe in one without it being irrational.

Yes, and I have been trying to get off the ground but she silently gainsays or mocks me. You call this a "golden opportunity"? So far it is futile because of her unwillingness to put in some temporary place holders. You cannot solve problems that are circular in nature unless you make use of temporary supports. By denying me this ability, she prevents me from building an arch to get her from one side to the other.

Taking leaps of faith isn’t going work.

I'm not asking her to actually believe me. I'm asking her to recognize an assumption upon which further logic can proceed. She refuses to do this. Therefore, construction of the arch must cease. Or, alternatively, she can wait until such time as she sees for herself the logic and then we might be able to continue.

And telling her that she just has to take that leap isn’t rational in the least bit.

Apparently Meow Mix, as well as you, do not have the mental faculties to ruminate. You don't have a special place in your mind to put things in a partially swallowed state that can remain there to be chewed upon and then if they are not proven out to just spit them back up and dispose of them. I am simply asking her to ruminate with me. Apparently she is a true Gentile and lacks this capability.

That definitely isn't a way to win a debate.

I don't think in terms of how to win here. If I can convey information that is useful to someone then that is good. If not, then I am happy to go my way. Whether someone thinks I won or lost the debate is completely a non-issue to me.

Remember you are debating. It is the one-on-one debate section. You mentioned a few key points, but didn’t expound on them and some of the ones you gave were irrational like MM mentioned.

Unfortunately, my motivation to continue in the dialog is going down. I'll have to detect a more sincere interest from MM and reason to believe this isn't just a futile setting where more mockery will be thrown in for amusement's sake. These things I am talking about here are extremely sacred to me and I'm ashamed as it is that I am laying out pearls under these circumstances. In fact, I'm pretty close to just calling it quits for that reason alone. Jesus says to not cast your pearls before swine because they will trample them under their feet and turn and rend you. So far, this is what my experience has been rewarded with. Bear in mind, there is only one thing that swine lack that deems them an unclean animal. They have no ruminant organ. They cannot ruminate. They don't chew the cud. I know precisely what I am looking for in this dialog for it to have any hope of success and so far is all I hear is "oink, oink, oink".

Again MM isn’t asking for much and is actually making it quite easy for you. It is a simple request and doesn’t seem like it should be that hard of a concept to grasp. If you can’t provide a valid reason why it is worth believing in something such as what you believe then why should others do the same?

She is making it impossible for herself.

 

[Gloone]

Yes, and I have been trying to get off the ground but she silently gainsays or mocks me. You call this a "golden opportunity"? So far it is futile because of her unwillingness to put in some temporary place holders. You cannot solve problems that are circular in nature unless you make use of temporary supports. By denying me this ability, she prevents me from building an arch to get her from one side to the other.

Build the Arch yourself and walk over it. Taking a leap of faith shouldn’t be too hard if you have your own place holders and support mechanisms. She has hers, if they don’t meet some of your expectations or is asking you to reach unquestionable feats, kick the illogical leprechaun off the toadstool she placed it on.

I'm not asking her to actually believe me. I'm asking her to recognize an assumption upon which further logic can proceed. She refuses to do this. Therefore, construction of the arch must cease. Or, alternatively, she can wait until such time as she sees for herself the logic and then we might be able to continue.

Ouch an Arch. Those are unique in design. Just throw a rope and a life preserver. If she can’t tread water she might require both.

Apparently Meow Mix, as well as you, do not have the mental faculties to ruminate. You don't have a special place in your mind to put things in a partially swallowed state that can remain there to be chewed upon and then if they are not proven out to just spit them back up and dispose of them. I am simply asking her to ruminate with me. Apparently she is a true Gentile and lacks this capability.

Well, she doesn’t seem to have that hard of a time with it. I know I don’t. Maybe contingency is the problem is getting in the way and halting the process of building the Arch.

I don't think in terms of how to win here. If I can convey information that is useful to someone then that is good. If not, then I am happy to go my way. Whether someone thinks I won or lost the debate is completely a non-issue to me.

Unfortunately, my motivation to continue in the dialog is going down. I'll have to detect a more sincere interest from MM and reason to believe this isn't just a futile setting where more mockery will be thrown in for amusement's sake. These things I am talking about here are extremely sacred to me and I'm ashamed as it is that I am laying out pearls under these circumstances. In fact, I'm pretty close to just calling it quits for that reason alone. Jesus says to not cast your pearls before swine because they will trample them under their feet and turn and rend you. So far, this is what my experience has been rewarded with. Bear in mind, there is only one thing that swine lack that deems them an unclean animal. They have no ruminant organ. They cannot ruminate. They don't chew the cud. I know precisely what I am looking for in this dialog for it to have any hope of success and so far is all I hear is "oink, oink, oink".

If you want to call it quits that isn’t really a problem. I didn’t think it was possible for her to ruffle people’s feathers like that. I usually just light a torch and start burning things down after she makes me mad.

I never herd the Oink before either. Maybe she is some type of war pig we didn’t know about. If you don’t care for your pearls it shouldn’t be a problem. Maybe she doesn’t like pearls either. If don’t like using your pearls, use nerf balls or giant marshmallows. Buy a high impact marshmallow cannon. That way she doesn’t trample your pearls. I seen one the other day, I have been thinking about making the purchase myself.

She is making it impossible for herself.

Hmm….. impossible for her or you? Sorry I can’t really give to many suggestions. I don’t want to take away from the debate you two have started. If you two decided to continue debating and you happen to have any more implications, try asking her about how they could possibly get resolved then see how it fits the rebuttal and try building on that.

 

[kylixguru]

Build the Arch yourself and walk over it.

I've already done so for myself. That's the point.
The question here is if she allows me to get that far in our dialog.

Taking a leap of faith shouldn’t be too hard if you have your own place holders and support mechanisms.

Nobody should have to make a leap of faith. I simply ask for rumination.

She has hers, if they don’t meet some of your expectations or is asking you to reach unquestionable feats, kick the illogical leprechaun off the toadstool she placed it on.

I have been asked to put forward the basis upon which my belief in God is rational and I've requested some temporary placeholders. Without them, I see no point in continuing.

Ouch an Arch. Those are unique in design. Just throw a rope and a life preserver. If she can’t tread water she might require both.

What would those look like in this context?

If you want to call it quits that isn’t really a problem. I didn’t think it was possible for her to ruffle people’s feathers like that. I usually just light a torch and start burning things down after she makes me mad.

It's better that I don't try and press because everything I testify of to her she shall be accountable for. If nothing I say will benefit her then it's actually better I don't say anything.

I never herd the Oink before either. Maybe she is some type of war pig we didn’t know about. If you don’t care for your pearls it shouldn’t be a problem. Maybe she doesn’t like pearls either. If don’t like using your pearls, use nerf balls or giant marshmallows. Buy a high impact marshmallow cannon. That way she doesn’t trample your pearls. I seen one the other day, I have been thinking about making the purchase myself.

I appreciate your attempt to lighten up the heart, but I am not willing to get light minded.

Hmm….. impossible for her or you? Sorry I can’t really give to many suggestions. I don’t want to take away from the debate you two have started. If you two decided to continue debating and you happen to have any more implications, try asking her about how they could possibly get resolved then see how it fits the rebuttal and try building on that.

Maybe things can somehow continue along those lines. We shall see.

 

[Gloone]

Nobody should have to make a leap of faith. I simply ask for rumination.

In what context are you using rumination?

I have been asked to put forward the basis upon which my belief in God is rational and I've requested some temporary placeholders. Without them, I see no point in continuing.

Use them anyway. Did she say you couldn't?

What would those look like in this context?

I just pictured MM as a kitty trying to tread water. Probably doesn't have much to do with anything.

I appreciate your attempt to lighten up the heart, but I am not willing to get light minded.

She is a sweet girl, I'm sure she means no harm. She just happens to pack a punch for lunch. Knockout

 

[kylixguru]

In what context are you using rumination?

I explained it already. The process of swallowing something into an area where you attempt to digest it and if need be you bring it back up for more chewing or to spit it out.

Use them anyway. Did she say you couldn't?

She rejects them.

She is a sweet girl, I'm sure she means no harm. She just happens to pack a punch for lunch. Knockout

I see a lot of good in her. I wouldn't give her my time and attention if I didn't. As for her punch, there are areas I would like to have some punches landed on me that I was hoping she could reach. So far she seems too intimidated to get into a position she could land some good ones from. If she mocks me and lightly passes over things I say and dismisses them, she takes away from herself any ability to actually hit me with anything I'm going to feel on a deep level. If you wish to influence me, it's a good idea to gain and maintain my respect.

 

[Gloone]

I explained it already. The process of swallowing something into an area where you attempt to digest it and if need be you bring it back up for more chewing or to spit it out.

I thought you were talking about something else. Why would you want someone to do such a strange thing like that? Is that even normal… Doesn't sound like it.

 

[kylixguru]

I thought you were talking about something else. Why would you want someone to do such a strange thing like that? Is that even normal… Doesn't sound like it.

I hope you realize I am drawing upon the parallel between digestion of food in animals and different people's methods of digesting information. Some people are mental swine. That's what being pig-headed means.

Some can ruminate and some cannot. Some people can "chew the cud" and some cannot. Those who can are able to extract all the good out of things down to the finest level of discernment and to spit out that which is not good, down to the finest level of discernment. They can utilize various constructs in order to maximize their ability to extract the nutrients.

If you don't have these faculties your only choice is to eat and swallow it all with the good and the bad all going down together. Thus, causing your body [mind] to become polluted and unclean. Generally, swine will just reject and trample that which they are incapable of digesting. And, given a chance, they will rend the one giving it.

Gentiles lack the mental firmware to digest information in certain ways. This is why in God's eyes the Gentiles were considered unclean animals. It is a reference to their level of mentality in approaching the discernment of truth. They will never be able to understand things properly in the realm of circular logic and acquaintence based knowledge.

Just as the Gospels prophecy, demons are allowed to enter into a herd of swine for a period of about 2,000 years. Even though they confess their Lord as the Son of God, they all go and run headlong over a cliff and drown themselves in a sea of confusion.

It is possible Meow Mix may have had the firmware I look for in people because the people of the ancient kingdom of Israel were scattered among the Gentiles and they shall be gathered back together into a living societal body again, rather than going over that cliff. I keep an eye out for them on the fringes of mainstream religion because they tend to avoid the stench of today's demonic orthodoxy.

However, once the mockery starts, that's my cue to move on.
Meow Mix doesn't appear to be what I'm looking for.

ADD: Despite her weaknesses, she is heads and shoulders above most Mormons and Christians.

 

[Gloone]

I hope you realize I am drawing upon the parallel between digestion of food in animals and different people's methods of digesting information. Some people are mental swine. That's what being pig-headed means.

Some can ruminate and some cannot. Some people can "chew the cud" and some cannot. Those who can are able to extract all the good out of things down to the finest level of discernment and to spit out that which is not good, down to the finest level of discernment. They can utilize various constructs in order to maximize their ability to extract the nutrients.

If you don't have these faculties your only choice is to eat and swallow it all with the good and the bad all going down together. Thus, causing your body [mind] to become polluted and unclean. Generally, swine will just reject and trample that which they are incapable of digesting. And, given a chance, they will rend the one giving it.

Gentiles lack the mental firmware to digest information in certain ways. This is why in God's eyes the Gentiles were considered unclean animals. It is a reference to their level of mentality in approaching the discernment of truth. They will never be able to understand things properly in the realm of circular logic and acquaintence based knowledge.

Just as the Gospels prophecy, demons are allowed to enter into a herd of swine for a period of about 2,000 years. Even though they confess their Lord as the Son of God, they all go and run headlong over a cliff and drown themselves in a sea of confusion.

It is possible Meow Mix may have had the firmware I look for in people because the people of the ancient kingdom of Israel were scattered among the Gentiles and they shall be gathered back together into a living societal body again, rather than going over that cliff. I keep an eye out for them on the fringes of mainstream religion because they tend to avoid the stench of today's demonic orthodoxy.

Well Jbug, that seems to be a hideous parallel. It also happens to sound very judgmental and disrespectful on your part. Do you see nothing wrong with that? It is also a play on words. If you want people to take you seriously, try using them in there proper context without trying to give them several different meanings. That way you don’t have to go into parallels to explain something you could have said with a single statement. It is also the year 2011 A.D. / CE. Using parallels to those times is sort of outdated. By about 2000+ years.

However, once the mockery starts, that's my cue to move on.
Meow Mix doesn't appear to be what I'm looking for.

What exactly are you looking for. MM is no pushover. What were you expecting before you entered the debate. That would be interesting to know.

ADD: Despite her weaknesses, she is heads and shoulders above most Mormons and Christians.

Well that isn’t saying much and I would say that is a very bad opinion to have of someone.

 

[kylixguru]

Well Jbug, that seems to be a hideous parallel. It also happens to sound very judgmental and disrespectful on your part. Do you see nothing wrong with that? It is also a play on words. If you want people to take you seriously, try using them in there proper context without trying to give them several different meanings. That way you don’t have to go into parallels to explain something you could have said with a single statement. It is also the year 2011 A.D. / CE. Using parallels to those times is sort of outdated. By about 2000+ years.

It was nowhere near as hideous as that rediculous video and in my case I don't think there is any mistaking that the intent of that strawman was to mock me.

What exactly are you looking for. MM is no pushover. What were you expecting before you entered the debate. That would be interesting to know.

I already said. I'm looking for a worthy companion in dialog.

My preference would be to lose in the eyes of those watching if there was something for me to gain from it. However, I don't think MM is up to the task. Mocking me signals that my time is wasted here, for the reasons I explained.

Why offer something if it is just going to be trampled upon? Any idiot can trample on things.