James, the Lord's brother

[dogsgod]

The brothers of Jesus were listed as James, Joseph, Simon and Judas

We're discussing Paul's writings and his reference to James, brother of the Lord.

 

[Charity]

I mentioned that subject myself in post #30 about Paul and his reference to James....
Sorry I won't post anything else........

 

[Smoke]

The above posts supply just a fraction of Jesus' brothers for those that take Brothers of the Lord to mean literal brothers, rather than members of a brotherhood of believers, or In James' case, a leader of a Christian brotherhood.

Nonsense. Anybody can see that early Christians referred to each other as brothers, but we're talking about a much more specific phrase, "the Lord's brother." That phrase occurs exactly once in the Bible, and refers to James. Paul never calls himself, or Peter or John, "the Lord's brother." Paul also uses the phrase "brethren of the Lord" exactly once, in a context that clearly shows he does not mean all the faithful, or even all the apostles:

"Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?" (1 Cor. 9.5)
​

Paul considered all Christians his brothers, but only Jesus' brothers were "brothers of the Lord."

 

[dogsgod]

Nonsense. Anybody can see that early Christians referred to each other as brothers, but we're talking about a much more specific phrase, "the Lord's brother." That phrase occurs exactly once in the Bible, and refers to James. Paul never calls himself, or Peter or John, "the Lord's brother." Paul also uses the phrase "brethren of the Lord" exactly once, in a context that clearly shows he does not mean all the faithful, or even all the apostles:

"Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?" (1 Cor. 9.5)
​

Paul considered all Christians his brothers, but only Jesus' brothers were "brothers of the Lord."

Of course they were, it's the gospel truth.

 

[Spiritone]

Important info. can be found in the Gnostic Gospels found at Nag Hammadi that date back to the time of Jesus or shortly thereafter. Worth looking up.

 

[dogsgod]

If only Paul had wrote, "James, brother of Jesus." But he didn't.

 

[Smoke]

If only Paul had wrote, "James, brother of Jesus." But he didn't.

I'm sorry to have wasted my time discussing it with someone so obviously uninterested in coming to a rational conclusion.

 

[dogsgod]

I'm sorry to have wasted my time discussing it with someone so obviously uninterested in coming to a rational conclusion.

I'm sorry too, but I'm not as well indoctrinated by the church as you are.

 

[Smoke]

I'm sorry too, but I'm not as well indoctrinated by the church as you are.

Your dogmatic commitment to your historical fantasy is no more or less rational than the dogmatic commitment of Christians to theirs. However, I do find intellectual dishonesty even more contemptible in one who fancies himself a skeptic.

 

[dogsgod]

Your dogmatic commitment to your historical fantasy is no more or less rational than the dogmatic commitment of Christians to theirs. However, I do find intellectual dishonesty even more contemptible in one who fancies himself a skeptic.

You make the church proud. Your indoctrination is full and complete. Congratulations.

 

[logician]

It's doubtful that a real "Paul"existed (probably 2 different men, or 2 fictitious creations), since the one represented in the NT seemed to have a bad case of schizophrenia. SInce, of course, there is no evidence of the existence of a historical Jesus, the existence of a supposed brother James is a moot point.

 

[tigrers99]

Believers point to Galatians 1:19 "I did not see any other apostle except James, the Lord's brother" as evidence for Jesus' literal brother in spite of the fact that the Epistle writers refer to brother/s and brethren dozens of times as if in reference to a brotherhood.

The gospels don't refer to Jesus' brother as a disciple or of any importance. He's mentioned once in Mark 6:3 in passing and is never mentioned again. Luke/Acts doesn't even name James as a brother of Jesus.

Where does the idea come from that Jesus' brother James became a leader of a Christian community if not from the gospels and Acts?

The brother (real brother via Mary and her husband Joseph) of Jesus was written about by several writers of that time. Josephus being the most important;
Rejection of Pascal's Wager: The Death of James

 

[dogsgod]

It's doubtful that a real "Paul"existed (probably 2 different men, or 2 fictitious creations), since the one represented in the NT seemed to have a bad case of schizophrenia. SInce, of course, there is no evidence of the existence of a historical Jesus, the existence of a supposed brother James is a moot point.

Acts is a work of fiction so that Paul is best ignored, but someone wrote certain epistles that are agreed to have been written by one person we can call Paul. We can garner from those what we can about this person, but that's about it. As far as James is concerned, I think it worthwhile to investigate just in case the reference to him as a brother and the church tradition of him as a religious leader provides a probability for the existence of Jesus. The question only becomes moot when the tradition is shown to be baseless.

 

[dogsgod]

The brother (real brother via Mary and her husband Joseph) of Jesus was written about by several writers of that time. Josephus being the most important;
Rejection of Pascal's Wager: The Death of James

I don't know of several. There is Josephus but he's not a contemporary and the writings appear to have been tampered with.

 

[gnostic]

I think he is James, son of Zebedee. Paul refers to James, Peter, and John as "pillars". They are portrayed as the three main disciples in the gospels. James is the first disciple introduced. Luke/Acts doesn't even so much as name any of Jesus' brothers, so how can we ever assume that a James referred to in Acts is Jesus' brother?

:no: You're confusing the several James in the NT. As Smoke pointed out, James, brother of John and the son of Zebedee, clearly died in the Acts, and the brother of Jesus appeared later in Acts. So I think it is safe to say that James son of Zebedee is not the same as James the brother of Jesus.

How do you draw the conclusion that James is the brother of Jesus? Acts doesn't name Jesus brothers, so we can't get that information from Acts.

Matthew 13:55-56 and Mark 6:3, both named James as one of Jesus' brothers.

"Isn't he the carpenter's son? Isn't Mary his mother, and aren't James, Joseph, Simon and Judas his brothers? Aren't all his sisters living here here? Where did he get all this?"

Clearly the carpenter is Joseph. Anyway, the references to other members of the family, other than Mary, clearly indicated that Jesus had siblings, even sisters.

Could James, the leader of church in Jerusalem be that brother of Jesus? It is a possibility.

 

[dogsgod]

:no: You're confusing the several James in the NT. As Smoke pointed out, James, brother of John and the son of Zebedee, clearly died in the Acts, and the brother of Jesus appeared later in Acts. So I think it is safe to say that James son of Zebedee is not the same as James the brother of Jesus.



Matthew 13:55-56 and Mark 6:3, both named James as one of Jesus' brothers.



Clearly the carpenter is Joseph. Anyway, the references to other members of the family, other than Mary, clearly indicated that Jesus had siblings, even sisters.

Could James, the leader of church in Jerusalem be that brother of Jesus? It is a possibility.

No it's not a possibility. James, brother of John dies in Acts 12:2. Before that, in Acts 9, Paul visits James, brother of John, in Jerusalem. That's the first of 2 visits to Jerusalem by Paul, and according to Paul, they were 14 years apart. It is during that first visit that Paul refers to James, the brother of John, as brother of the Lord.

The brother of Jesus is not so much as named anywhere in Luke or Acts, so the reader can't assume that the James mentioned after Acts 15 is Jesus' brother. I'm not disputing that Jesus had a brother named James according to the gospel story line of Mark, I'm disputing the baseless notion that Paul met with Jesus' brother in Jerusalem and that the brother of Jesus became a leader of a Christian community. It's a later Christian tradition that has no basis in fact, and can't even be supported by the gospels or the Acts storyline. Paul doesn't support it either, he's not referring to a literal brother and in any event, he's addressing James, brother of John during that first visit.

 

[gnostic]

No it's not a possibility. James, brother of John dies in Acts 12:2.

Which I already know.

The brother of Jesus is not so much as named anywhere in Luke or Acts, so the reader can't assume that the James mentioned after Acts 15 is Jesus' brother.

The James in Acts 15 is certainly not the brother of John, because this brother of John (or son of Zebedee) is dead in Acts 12. All I am saying that Acts 15 can't refer to James brother of John (and son of Zebedee).

The only other possibilities for Acts 15 and Acts 21 is that he is either James the Lesser (other apostle; son of Aphaeus) or James brother of Jesus.

Before that, in Acts 9, Paul visits James, brother of John, in Jerusalem.

As to Acts 9, it actually doesn't mention any James at all, let alone the brother of John. It only say that Paul stayed with some apostles, after Damascus incident.

 

[dogsgod]

gnostic, there's only two trips that Paul made to Jerusalem to keep track of. He writes about his first visit in Galatians 1 and his 2nd visit in Galatians 2. The visit Paul makes in Acts 9 would line up with Galatians 1. It is during that first visit that Paul claims he met with James, the Lord's brother. Galatians1 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord's brother.

The Gospels make it clear that James son of Zebedee is the partner of Peter.

Luke 5:
8 When Simon Peter saw this, he fell at Jesus' knees and said, "Go away from me, Lord; I am a sinful man!" 9 For he and all his companions were astonished at the catch of fish they had taken, 10 and so were James and John, the sons of Zebedee, Simon's partners.​

We see these same names listed by Paul in Galatians.

Galatians 2:
9 James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews.​

 

[gnostic]

Sorry, but the Acts give 3 visits, not 2, to Jerusalem.

I see your point with Acts 9 and with Acts 15, which you have already pointed out, but what about the 3rd visit, where he met James the brother of Jesus (Acts 21:17-26), shortly before he was arrested.

As to Galatians 1, which correspond to Acts 9, there are several different translations:

...any other apostle except James, the Lord's brother.

or

...any other apostle; the only other person I saw was James, the Lord's brother.

 

[dogsgod]

Sorry, but the Acts give 3 visits, not 2, to Jerusalem.

I see your point with Acts 9 and with Acts 15, which you have already pointed out, but what about the 3rd visit, where he met James the brother of Jesus (Acts 21:17-26), shortly before he was arrested.

As to Galatians 1, which correspond to Acts 9, there are several different translations:



or

My mistake, the first visit is referred to in Acts 9 and the second is Acts 21. They are the two visits. Where does the notion come from that Paul visited Jesus' brother James from reading Acts?