James 2:21 versus Romans 4:2. How was Abraham Justified?

[Shermana]

you can't earn favor with God.

The text implies otherwise.

The reason is because a person can do the 'ordinances and requirements' without faith. You can do those things simply because you are told to. How many people practice religions that they profess to not really believe in.

But apparently you can't have faith if you don't do the Laws. Hence why so many Israelites were put to death. Even Aaron's sons were burned to death for merely offering the wrong kind of fire for the sacrifice.

we can do all the ordinences simply because others are doing them. God to the temple may simply become apart of our routine because our family do so. Refraining from eating certain foods may become the norm simply because mum never cooks it for us.

I have no idea how this remotely relates to the discussion.

 

[Shermana]

Proverbs 3



1My son, do not forget my teaching,
but keep my commands in your heart,
2for they will prolong your life many years
and bring you prosperity.
3Let love and faithfulness never leave you;
bind them around your neck,
write them on the tablet of your heart.
4Then you will win favor and a good name
in the sight of God and man.



Well there you have it, have faithfulness to the commands, and you will win favor in the sight of God and man. (Write them on the tablet of your heart = be faithful to what you're taught). The "Faithfulness" in question here is actually "Young's Literal Translation
Let not kindness and truth forsake thee, Bind them on thy neck, Write them on the tablet of thy heart,"

Kindness and TRUTH.

The word "Truth" here implying obedience to the Laws.


"Win favor in the sight of God".

 

[Walkntune]

=Shermana;3167219]I don't think you're reading the same Bible as me. Otherwise, get your source. I'm really suspecting you are not familiar with the text itself. The commandment specifically says "Thou shalt not murder" (Translated as kill in some translations). Really, where are you getting this? Are you not even familiar with the 10 commandments?

Ten commandments were not given yet.

Genesis 9

King James Version (KJV)

9 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
6Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

You think God gave them the Law because they were boasting? Where are you deriving this?

.This has to be the first time I've heard of this ever. This is not supported in the text whatsoever. This is just loony. You can't just make up something that the text doesn't say or even remotely implies in a textual discussion. Can you name a SINGLE commentary or link or site that says this or will you kindly admit this is completely your own interpretation?

It is my interpretation from Exodus.

I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspringa all nations on earth will be blessed, 5because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws.”

It was because Abraham observed his commands, decrees, and laws that he was so honored to be the progenitor of all Israel, hence earning God's favor. Seriously, you may want to actually read the Torah before you debate it.

His obedience was for the sake of Faith and not for the law.He obeyed in faith even to the extent of shedding blood if he was commanded. Without faith it is impossible to please God no matter what laws you follow.Scribes and Pharisees are prime example.

 

[Shermana]

6Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Abraham shed blood, yet his own blood was not said to be shed. So obviously this applies to murder and not sanctioned Warfare.

It is my interpretation from Exodus.

What verse and chapter? Are you agreeing that this is just your interpretation and that virtually no other commentator, Conservative scholar, Jewish authority, Midrash, or independent analysis agrees with it?

His obedience was for the sake of Faith and not for the law.He obeyed in faith even to the extent of shedding blood if he was commanded.

Obedience for the sake of Faith isn't much different than the Israelite obedience to the Law out of faith. We have faith that this is what God wants us to do and that we live because we follow them. Obviously he earned God's favor by obeying the statutes and commandments. Would he have earned it if he didn't? Likewise, it says "You shall LIVE by them", which the word "live" means "YOu shall SURVIVE by doing them".

Now back to the subject you skipped twice, why did so many Israelites die in the wilderness?

 

[Desert Snake]

Proverbs 3



1My son, do not forget my teaching,
but keep my commands in your heart,
2for they will prolong your life many years
and bring you prosperity.
3Let love and faithfulness never leave you;
bind them around your neck,
write them on the tablet of your heart.
4Then you will win favor and a good name
in the sight of God and man.



Well there you have it, have faithfulness to the commands, and you will win favor in the sight of God and man. (Write them on the tablet of your heart = be faithful to what you're taught). The "Faithfulness" in question here is actually "Young's Literal Translation
Let not kindness and truth forsake thee, Bind them on thy neck, Write them on the tablet of thy heart,"

Kindness and TRUTH.

The word "Truth" here implying obedience to the Laws.


"Win favor in the sight of God".

Romans 4:11 (KJV)
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also.

Clearly this is implying that non-Jews were not expected to follow the law.

 

[Walkntune]

Abraham shed blood, yet his own blood was not said to be shed. So obviously this applies to murder and not sanctioned Warfare.

What verse and chapter? Are you agreeing that this is just your interpretation and that virtually no other commentator, Conservative scholar, Jewish authority, Midrash, or independent analysis agrees with it?




Obedience for the sake of Faith isn't much different than the Israelite obedience to the Law out of faith. We have faith that this is what God wants us to do and that we live because we follow them. Obviously he earned God's favor by obeying the statutes and commandments. Would he have earned it if he didn't? Likewise, it says "You shall LIVE by them", which the word "live" means "YOu shall SURVIVE by doing them".

Now back to the subject you skipped twice, why did so many Israelites die in the wilderness?

They were under law and had no faith. They only murmered and complained from one deliverance to anther from when they came out of Egypt, to the Red sea, to no food or water ,etc...
Truth is if you are not in faith then you are under the law whether you believe in God or not or should say you will be crushed by the law.

 

[Shermana]

They were under law and had no faith. They only murmered and complained from one deliverance to anther from when they came out of Egypt, to the Red sea, to no food or water ,etc...

For example, some of them went to fornicate with the Moabitesses. That was breaking the Law, and they were ordered to be killed by Moses himself for it.

James is quite clear that one is not in Faith if they are not in Law, so it goes both ways.

 

[Shermana]

Romans 4:11 (KJV)
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also.

Clearly this is implying that non-Jews were not expected to follow the law.

That's not the issue of debate here. But it doesn't necessarily imply that only those who are circumcised are to follow the Law either. Are they not even to follow the 10 commandments?

 

[GawdAweful]

Perhaps I'm being naive here, but I fail to see the problem. Even if we only had the book of James; even if Paul never existed; James says:

2:22-26 - 'You see that [Abraham's] faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone...As the body without spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.'​

If this is all we had to judge the matter, three things seem clear to me:

• 1) Faith is not enough to gain God's favor. ("not by faith alone")
• 2) Deeds are not enough to gain God's favor ("not by faith alone" implies also "not by deeds alone") Why? Because...
• 3) Faith is made complete by the deeds.

It was not the actual works themselves that justified Abraham, as Paul said in an explicit sense, but rather faith which was made complete. How? By works. James does not deny that faith is what saves but that it must be perfected or made complete by works to be considered acceptable to God

The coin must have two sides to be worth anything. Both body and spirit must work together. It doesn't matter how Paul is interpreted. James makes it clear that true Christians must have faith AND express that faith through works to be justified.
If a person has 'faith' he must express it as he is able.

It is not an 'either-'or' decision...it must be both.

 

[Shermana]

That's kinda what I'm saying, Gawdawful. James implies that faith is expressed through deeds. While Paul SEEMS to be saying kinda the opposite in the rest of his writings like Galatians.....

Paul specifically says that a man is justified "by faith alone" and argues against the idea of works as "having something to boast over". There is a direct clash between them.

 

[Walkntune]

Perhaps I'm being naive here, but I fail to see the problem. Even if we only had the book of James; even if Paul never existed; James says:

2:22-26 - 'You see that [Abraham's] faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone...As the body without spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.'​

If this is all we had to judge the matter, three things seem clear to me:

• 1) Faith is not enough to gain God's favor. ("not by faith alone")
• 2) Deeds are not enough to gain God's favor ("not by faith alone" implies also "not by deeds alone") Why? Because...
• 3) Faith is made complete by the deeds.

It was not the actual works themselves that justified Abraham, as Paul said in an explicit sense, but rather faith which was made complete. How? By works. James does not deny that faith is what saves but that it must be perfected or made complete by works to be considered acceptable to God

The coin must have two sides to be worth anything. Both body and spirit must work together. It doesn't matter how Paul is interpreted. James makes it clear that true Christians must have faith AND express that faith through works to be justified.
If a person has 'faith' he must express it as he is able.

It is not an 'either-'or' decision...it must be both.

Whats in question is it works of faith from believing in Christ or works of faith from believing in the law?Old covenant of OT laws or new covenant of love and grace through Christ.Maybe it would be better to discuss grace and how it applied in the old testament.It is Gods unmerited favor and does not come from following laws.

 

[Desert Snake]

That's not the issue of debate here. But it doesn't necessarily imply that only those who are circumcised are to follow the Law either. Are they not even to follow the 10 commandments?

I think by using the term 'also' it was implied that there was a sort of understanding that the Jews would have had a pre-existing righteousness under the law...

I don't think Jews were expected to stop following the laws, it was just that the gentiles were not obligated to it.

 

[GawdAweful]

So what kind of good works specifically can we expect to see from those with true faith according to such an interpretation?

Did Paul not say so himself in Galatians (right after saying we are not subject to the Law) 19 - 26? He is not contradicting himself. Or is he?


18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control.Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited,provoking and envying each other.

 

[GawdAweful]

Whats in question is it works of faith from believing in Christ or works of faith from believing in the law?Old covenant of OT laws or new covenant of love and grace through Christ.Maybe it would be better to discuss grace and how it applied in the old testament.It is Gods unmerited favor and does not come from following laws.

Well, I'm in the wrong debate then, as I do not believe the Mosaic Law was ever anything God commanded.

 

[Shermana]

Did Paul not say so himself in Galatians (right after saying we are not subject to the Law) 19 - 26? He is not contradicting himself. Or is he?


18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control.Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited,provoking and envying each other.

Hmmm, why would witchcraft be considered an "Act of the flesh" exactly? So apparently SOME of the laws are valid still. Now if only he had a handy guide to tell which ones were and weren't. I do agree that the thing against "Fits of rage" is an example of the "Spirit of the Law" that are parts of the in-betweens that aren't mentioned directly.

I also find it interesting that the "Saved by grace" folk skip that he said that those who engage in such won't inherit the Kingdom. I can imagine how many Christians do in fact still engage in those without repentance yet think they have a golden ticket to Heaven. I myself am no means immune to fits of rage and dissension.

But what exactly is "goodness" and "faithfulness" and "Kindness" and "Forebearance"? Aren't those just more buzz words and ambiguities that dodge around the specifics? What kind of self-control is being discussed here exactly?

I find his prohibition on "Dissensions" interesting. Does this mean nyone who disagrees with anyone is acting in the flesh?

 

[GawdAweful]

I also find it interesting that the "Saved by grace" folk skip that he said that those who engage in such won't inherit the Kingdom. I can imagine how many Christians do in fact still engage in those without repentance yet think they have a golden ticket to Heaven.

Then they are fooling themselves.The faith must be made 'complete' by works. No works and your faith is incomplete and will not save you.

 

[Pegg]

That's kinda what I'm saying, Gawdawful. James implies that faith is expressed through deeds. While Paul SEEMS to be saying kinda the opposite in the rest of his writings like Galatians.....

Paul specifically says that a man is justified "by faith alone" and argues against the idea of works as "having something to boast over". There is a direct clash between them.

you refuse to acknowledge that Paul is speaking about the mosaic law

James is speaking about good deeds motivated by faith. They are different. They are not the same.

Rahab did not follow any of the mosaic law yet she performed a 'work of faith' when she helped the Israelite spies escape, she was expressing faith in God...she wanted to please God. Her 'work' was not a mosaic law, it was not required of her, it was not something God commanded her....she simply did it because she had faith in God and for that faith she was counted in among the 'righteous'. She, and her family, were saved by God even though they were pagans.

Her 'faith' is what gave her Gods favor.....and she expressed that faith by helping Gods people escape.

 

[sincerly]

I also find it interesting that the "Saved by grace" folk skip that he said that those who engage in such won't inherit the Kingdom. I can imagine how many Christians do in fact still engage in those without repentance yet think they have a golden ticket to Heaven.

Then they are fooling themselves.The faith must be made 'complete' by works. No works and your faith is incomplete and will not save you.

James and Paul are in agreement . The Hear and do have been the theme since the beginning. Eve heard but didn't do GOD'S instructions; All through the Prophets who told the people what they should do, but didn't.
Today is no different----The scriptures are for our admonition/learning(1Cor.10:6,11), but the peoples of the world had rather Listen to lies rather than the "Thus saith the LORD GOD".
Heb.12:1-2, gives this "DOING" which isn't "WORKS", but "OBEDIENCE".
"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"

 

[crossfire]

So when Saul lost favor with God because he made unauthorized sacrifices, where does it say that Saul had no faith in God?

Ecclesiastes 5:1

5 Walk prudently when you go to the house of God; and draw near to hear rather than to give the sacrifice of fools, for they do not know that they do evil.
​

Back to Abraham's trial in regard to James:

13 No one undergoing a trial should say, “I am being tempted by God.” For God is not tempted by evil,[e] and He Himself doesn’t tempt anyone. 14 But each person is tempted when he is drawn away and enticed by his own evil desires.(M) 15 Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death.(N)
16 Don’t be deceived, my dearly loved brothers.(O) 17 Every generous act and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights; with Him there is no variation or shadow cast by turning.(P) 18 By His own choice, He gave us a new birth by the message of truth[f] so that we would be the firstfruits of His creatures.(Q)
​

Abraham showed faith in God by showing mercy to Isaac and putting faith in the substitution of the animal sacrifice as being acceptable. It was a big step away from the practice of human sacrifice that was taking place in that time and area. Later, another big step was made by Moses in limiting the sacrifice to the temple. (Those sacrificing outside the temple were charged with murder.) The next step would be having the law written on your heart (Jer 31:31-34,) which is still a work in progress. I have faith that it will one day be accomplished/realized.

 

[Walkntune]

you refuse to acknowledge that Paul is speaking about the mosaic law

James is speaking about good deeds motivated by faith. They are different. They are not the same.

Rahab did not follow any of the mosaic law yet she performed a 'work of faith' when she helped the Israelite spies escape, she was expressing faith in God...she wanted to please God. Her 'work' was not a mosaic law, it was not required of her, it was not something God commanded her....she simply did it because she had faith in God and for that faith she was counted in among the 'righteous'. She, and her family, were saved by God even though they were pagans.

Her 'faith' is what gave her Gods favor.....and she expressed that faith by helping Gods people escape.

Interesting how Rahab broke the ten commandments by bearing false witness yet still found favor by her faith.