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James 2:21 versus Romans 4:2. How was Abraham Justified?

Shermana

Heretic
534015_10151170382956705_162974465_n.jpg


Is this a blatant contradiction or is there some way of reconciling it?

Is Paul saying Abraham was not justified by works? Is James saying he was? If so, is that not a defacto contradiction between the two? Is Paul saying that he was justified by works nonetheless but simply not something to "brag about" before God? As if he could boast about it before Men? What exactly would that entail?

And in James' camp, doesn't it say that Abraham was chosen because he dutifully obeyed the commandments, statutes, and ordinances of the Lord? Even then, what exactly does Romans 4:2 mean with this? Is it saying that all Abraham had to do was believe when he was told he'd have a son and that he was completely and totally righteous? Or is he just saying that it was credited to him, like some more credit in his spiritual bank?

Is it fair to conclude that Paul and James directly clashed here in how to regard Abraham's faith exactly?
 

InChrist

Free4ever
I don't see any clash or contradiction between Paul and James. They are both in agreement concerning salvation through Jesus Christ alone. Paul highlights faith in God's grace through Christ and James points out that real faith in Jesus Christ is a living faith that produces works or actions. Abraham believed and trusted God completely, therefore he followed through with the instructions God gave him demonstrating that his faith was genuine.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I don't see any clash or contradiction between Paul and James. They are both in agreement concerning salvation through Jesus Christ alone. Paul highlights faith in God's grace through Christ and James points out that real faith in Jesus Christ is a living faith that produces works or actions. Abraham believed and trusted God completely, therefore he followed through with the instructions God gave him demonstrating that his faith was genuine.

I agree. The context in James makes this clear: "Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he had offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? You behold that his faith worked along with his works and by his works his faith was perfected, and the scripture was fulfilled which says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called “Jehovah’s friend.” You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone." (James 2:21-24) Verse 26 adds: "Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." So Abraham's good works alone did not bring righteousness, but faith that resulted in good works.
 
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Shermana

Heretic
So what kind of good works specifically can we expect to see from those with true faith according to such an interpretation?
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
So what kind of good works specifically can we expect to see from those with true faith according to such an interpretation?

As rusra02 rightly said, Abraham's "faith worked along with his works and by his works his faith was perfected". What 'works' did Abraham do...what was he noted for?
He was obedient to his God in everything he told him to do...unquestioningly...unhesitatingly.

Imagine yourself, an older man living a comfortable lifestyle in a prosperous city and being told to pull up stakes and leave family and friends for a destination unknown, dwelling in tents for the foreseeable future and not knowing why or where you would end up. Abraham did so without questioning.

Abraham was also promised a reward for his outstanding faith....his family line would produce a seed that would become the savior of the world. The man remained childless until well into his 80's, and his wife was concerned that there would never be offspring from her beloved husband. So she offered her maidservant Hagar to him as a surrogate to produce an heir. Ishmael was an only child for quite some time but when Ishmael was about 14, sure to his promise, God miraculously produced a son for Abraham through his wife Sarah. We can only imagine how precious this boy was to him in his old age. With God's permission, Hagar and Ishmael had been sent away and when Isaac was about 25 years old Abraham was asked to do the unthinkable....to sacrifice his precious son. I can't imagine what was going through Abraham's mind but without a murmur, he took Isaac and journeyed to Mt Moriah and built an alter in order to carry out Jehovah's command. It wasn't until he raised the knife to do the deed that the angel stopped him. We all know that God provided an alternate sacrifice...it was not only a monumentally difficult test, but it also went further to demonstrate something about God and the offering of his own precious son.

The willingness on Abraham's part to sacrifice his son pictured God's willingness to do likewise....and also the willingness on the part of his son, who could have easily resisted his aged father, shows Christ's willingness to be the sacrifice. The faith demonstrated by both Abraham and Isaac was remarkable.

Hebrews 11:17-19 tells us "By faith Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac, and the man that had gladly received the promises attempted to offer up [his] only-begotten [son], although it had been said to him: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” But he reckoned that God was able to raise him up even from the dead; and from there he did receive him also in an illustrative way."

Abraham's faith was in the resurrection. He was so trusting of his God, that he would not hesitate to carry out even things that made no sense to him at the time. But the great faith of this man moved him to actions that led to him being given a designation that no other human being on earth has even been given. He came to be called "Jehovah's friend". (James 2:23)

So what does that mean for us? Exactly the same. We have the word of God to tell us exactly what God requires of us today. It isn't always easy and it leads to a life of persecution and opposition from the world in general. (John 15:19, 20) It means being a witness for Jesus Christ and announcing the good news of God's kingdom to all who will listen.
Like the days of Noah, people would rather ridicule and scorn, but Christ's true followers are faithful to the assignment, which must be carried out in all the world before the promised end of this present age. (Matt 24:14; 37-39)

How many people are willing to go outside their comfort zone and actually become the kind of man God asked Abraham to be?...or the kind of preachers that Christ taught his disciples to be?

You can't have the faith without the works. Either one on their own is useless.

It is as James says..."Show me your faith apart from the works, and I shall show you my faith by my works."

Makes sense to me. :)
 
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Walkntune

Well-Known Member
534015_10151170382956705_162974465_n.jpg


Is this a blatant contradiction or is there some way of reconciling it?

Is Paul saying Abraham was not justified by works? Is James saying he was? If so, is that not a defacto contradiction between the two? Is Paul saying that he was justified by works nonetheless but simply not something to "brag about" before God? As if he could boast about it before Men? What exactly would that entail?

And in James' camp, doesn't it say that Abraham was chosen because he dutifully obeyed the commandments, statutes, and ordinances of the Lord? Even then, what exactly does Romans 4:2 mean with this? Is it saying that all Abraham had to do was believe when he was told he'd have a son and that he was completely and totally righteous? Or is he just saying that it was credited to him, like some more credit in his spiritual bank?

Is it fair to conclude that Paul and James directly clashed here in how to regard Abraham's faith exactly?
Its easy to confuse works of the flesh with works of the Spirit and of faith. Works of the flesh is law which the flesh is subject to.This is the works paul spoke of.If you choose to walk in the flesh then you are subject to the laws but if you walk by the spirit then you are justified by faith.Works of faith are not laws but works of righteousness.This is the works James spoke of. you can see that the work of Abraham was not that of law but that of faith.
 
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Shermana

Heretic
Its easy to confuse works of the flesh with works of the Spirit and of faith. Works of the flesh is law which the flesh is subject to.If you choose to walk in the flesh then you are subject to the laws but if you walk by the spirit then you are justified by faith.Works of faith our not laws but works of righteousness.

The word "Righteousness" is used in the OT, as well as by Jesus, to indicate obedience to the Commandments as WELL As Spirit of the Law.

Now please explain the difference between "Walking in the flesh" and "Walking in the Spirit". Are you saying that "Walking in the Spirit" means not obeying the Written Law? Be specific.

And also, what does that have to do with the subject to begin with exactly? James is clearly talking about "Works of the flesh" as in physical actions. Being willing to sacrifice Isaac was a physical work, a "work of the flesh". Likewise, Abraham was favored by God because he obeyed his "judgments, statutes, and ordinances".
 

Walkntune

Well-Known Member
The word "Righteousness" is used in the OT, as well as by Jesus, to indicate obedience to the Commandments as WELL As Spirit of the Law.

Now please explain the difference between "Walking in the flesh" and "Walking in the Spirit". Are you saying that "Walking in the Spirit" means not obeying the Written Law? Be specific.

And also, what does that have to do with the subject to begin with exactly? James is clearly talking about "Works of the flesh" as in physical actions. Being willing to sacrifice Isaac was a physical work, a "work of the flesh". Likewise, Abraham was favored by God because he obeyed his "judgments, statutes, and ordinances".
Walking by the Spirit means walking by Holy Spirit convictions of the Spirit of God that dwells in all Christians.. No man can come to Christ unless the Holy Spirit draws him no matter what works he performs in the flesh.I believe James was talking about showing his faith by his works(not his flesh) the same as Abraham.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Walking by the Spirit means walking by Holy Spirit convictions of the Spirit of God that dwells in all Christians.. No man can come to Christ unless the Holy Spirit draws him no matter what works he performs in the flesh.I believe James was talking about showing his faith by his works(not his flesh) the same as Abraham.

Okay, and how do we know what exactly is a Christian who is walking in the Spirit? What if I said that the Spirit should guide TRUE Christians to walk in the Law? I mean, we have so many different sects who all believe they have the Spirit guiding them, so does this mean the Spirit works differently? It guides Mormons to be Mormons and Catholics to be Catholics?

Specifics please. As in actual examples.

And didn't you just kinda contradict yourself about Abraham by saying his works was not in the flesh? What does that even mean?:
 

Walkntune

Well-Known Member
Okay, and how do we know what exactly is a Christian who is walking in the Spirit? What if I said that the Spirit should guide TRUE Christians to walk in the Law? I mean, we have so many different sects who all believe they have the Spirit guiding them, so does this mean the Spirit works differently? It guides Mormons to be Mormons and Catholics to be Catholics?

Specifics please. As in actual examples.

And didn't you just kinda contradict yourself about Abraham by saying his works was not in the flesh? What does that even mean?:
I will give you something to read if you don't mind because their is too much to explain. It is pretty much the same as I believe.Faith, Works, and the Apparent Controversy of Paul and James.
 

Shermana

Heretic
I will give you something to read if you don't mind because their is too much to explain. It is pretty much the same as I believe.Faith, Works, and the Apparent Controversy of Paul and James.

That site basically runs into the same snags that I'm arguing against and doesn't really provide any examples either unless I missed it.

This idea that works are the "Fruit of the Spirit" doesn't really answer who is being led by the Spirit, (and besides the fact it's not really what James or Jesus really teach but is an interpretation through a Pauline lens) and what kinds of works they are that are exclusive to the saved Christian.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
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Is this a blatant contradiction or is there some way of reconciling it?


the context reconciles it.

James is speaking about 'good works' or 'righteous acts'...the things we choose to do because of our faith.

Paul is speaking with regard to the works under the mosaic law...the regulations and requirements of the law which were called 'works of law'. Abraham lived before the mosiac law was given, so he did not participate in the various requirements of that law therefore Paul is saying that Abraham was not justified because of the 'works of law'

He and James are saying the same thing. Man is justified when his faith motivates him to do good....to live righteously, to behave in a manner that is worthy of Gods approval. And its not because someone or some document told you to do it, but because your faith in God motivated you to do it.
 

Shermana

Heretic
James refers to the Mosaic Law right in the same chapter, just a few verses apart.

Now what exactly are some examples of doing good and living righteously in the NT context?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
James refers to the Mosaic Law right in the same chapter, just a few verses apart.

Now what exactly are some examples of doing good and living righteously in the NT context?

look at one of the examples of 'works' he uses

25 In the same manner was not also Ra′hab the harlot declared righteous by works, after she had received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way?

Rahab wasnt practicing mosaic law works....she did a good deed toward two Israelites because she had faith that God was with them. Her good 'work' was helping the men escape.

he also speaks of helping the needy in Vs 15 If a brother or a sister is in a naked state and lacking the food sufficient for the day, 16 yet a certain one of YOU says to them: “Go in peace, keep warm and well fed,” but YOU do not give them the necessities for [their] body, of what benefit is it? 17 Thus, too, faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself.

These are good works... kind acts toward someone in need. In Rahabs case, she was risking her own life to save others...it was a self-sacrificing act
 

Shermana

Heretic
Kind acts towards the needy are found in the Torah, as well as commanded in Isaiah and Proverbs and other places.

But that's not even what this is about. Paul is basically saying Abraham wasn't justified by works, and there was no laid out Law in Abraham's day except for that which was told to Him, which is not stated specifically. Abraham's faith however, was established through his obedience to God's "statutes, judgments, and ordinances". We can only speculate that such were exactly similar to the Mosaic Law, and there's good reason to speculate that.

There is a contradiction regardless of whether you say Paul and James are talking about works of the Law. Paul is basically denying works as righteousness altogether in Chapter 4, regardless how you define them.

So it appears James does clash with Paul no matter how you try to fit this context in. Especially when you factor in that James emphasizes obedience to the Law.
 

Walkntune

Well-Known Member
That site basically runs into the same snags that I'm arguing against and doesn't really provide any examples either unless I missed it.

This idea that works are the "Fruit of the Spirit" doesn't really answer who is being led by the Spirit, (and besides the fact it's not really what James or Jesus really teach but is an interpretation through a Pauline lens) and what kinds of works they are that are exclusive to the saved Christian.
Lets just stand on what Christ teaches.Everything is summed up right here in the words of Christ.Walk in his commandment of love.
John 15
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
How do suppose we are clean through the words which he spoke to us . He did not say by the law.It was because they believe the words and believe in him that they are made clean.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
How come without Christ you can do nothing. Do you not have your laws to follow and guide you to righteousness?
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
How come the fruit we bear and that glorifies God comes from abiding in the words of Christ and not by obiding in OT laws?
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you
Jesus's commandments were that to love summing up the whole law. Jesus kept his fathers commandments( the OT laws) and obided in his fathers love. How come he didn't say if you keep my fathers commandments as well you shall do the same?He said keep his commandment to love one another.
15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
All we have to do is remain in Christ and we can ask God the father anything.Just walk in the commandments of love.Not the commandments of the law.
The World's Hatred
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin
How did they not have sin until Jesus came and spoke to them?Is his authority above that of God who says sin is from transgressions of the law?</SPAN>
: but now they have no cloke [1] for their sin
How come they have no cloke for their sin?Can't the law justify them? 23
He that hateth me hateth my Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. 25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
We do you suppose they crucified Christ and put him on the cross?
They were seeking to be justified by the law and Jesus taught a message that was contrary. Its the same today as it was then.
 
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crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Romans 2
11 There is no favoritism with God.(S) 12 All those who sinned without the law(T) will also perish without the law, and all those who sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For the hearers of the law(U) are not righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.[d] 14 So, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, instinctively(V) do what the law demands, they are a law to themselves even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law[e] is written on their hearts.(W) Their consciences confirm this. Their competing thoughts will either accuse or excuse them[f] 16 on the day when God judges(X) what people have kept secret, according to my gospel through Christ Jesus.(Y)​
Luke 6
43 &#8220;A good tree doesn&#8217;t produce bad fruit; on the other hand, a bad tree doesn&#8217;t produce good fruit.(AK) 44 For each tree is known by its own fruit. Figs aren&#8217;t gathered from thornbushes, or grapes picked from a bramble bush. 45 A good man produces good out of the good storeroom of his heart. An evil man produces evil out of the evil storeroom, for his mouth speaks from the overflow of the heart.​
Can we truly judge the hearts of others without error? We need to look for the works for confirmation, as we are prone to error when it comes to judging the hearts of others.
 

Walkntune

Well-Known Member
=crossfire;3166718]Romans 2
11 There is no favoritism with God.(S) 12 All those who sinned without the law(T) will also perish without the law, and all those who sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For the hearers of the law(U) are not righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.[d] 14 So, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, instinctively(V) do what the law demands, they are a law to themselves even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law[e] is written on their hearts.(W) Their consciences confirm this. Their competing thoughts will either accuse or excuse them[f] 16 on the day when God judges(X) what people have kept secret, according to my gospel through Christ Jesus.(Y)
IF YOU don't mind I would like to finish this quote of scripture from Romans
Jewish Violation of the Law

17 Now if[g] you call yourself a Jew, and rest in the law, boast in God, 18 know His will, and approve the things that are superior, being instructed from the law, 19 and if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light to those in darkness, 20 an instructor of the ignorant, a teacher of the immature, having the full expression[h] of knowledge and truth in the law&#8212; 21 you then, who teach another, don&#8217;t you teach yourself? You who preach, &#8220;You must not steal&#8221;&#8212;do you steal? 22 You who say, &#8220;You must not commit adultery&#8221;&#8212;do you commit adultery? You who detest idols, do you rob their temples? 23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 For, as it is written: The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.[i]


Circumcision of the Heart

25 For circumcision benefits you if you observe the law, but if you are a lawbreaker, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if an uncircumcised man keeps the law&#8217;s requirements, will his uncircumcision not be counted as circumcision? 27 A man who is physically uncircumcised, but who fulfills the law, will judge you who are a lawbreaker in spite of having the letter of the law and circumcision. 28 For a person is not a Jew who is one outwardly, and true circumcision is not something visible in the flesh. 29 On the contrary, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart&#8212;by the Spirit, not the letter.[j] That man&#8217;s praise[k] is not from men but from God.
What is written in red is key. How can one be uncircumsised yet fullfill the law? It is fullfilled in the heart with love in Christ, not by the letter of the law.Circumcision (the law) is fulfilled by the heart -by the Spirit and is not fullfilled by the letter.God is love.To be in God and to be in Christ is the same to be in love.How is it a man who is not circumcised (not following OT law) going to judge the one who is following the letters of the law even though all fall short and break the laws.His judgement will come from mercy from a heart of compassion and not that of condemnation from the laws.

Luke 6
43 &#8220;A good tree doesn&#8217;t produce bad fruit; on the other hand, a bad tree doesn&#8217;t produce good fruit.(AK) 44 For each tree is known by its own fruit. Figs aren&#8217;t gathered from thornbushes, or grapes picked from a bramble bush. 45 A good man produces good out of the good storeroom of his heart. An evil man produces evil out of the evil storeroom, for his mouth speaks from the overflow of the heart.
Can we truly judge the hearts of others without error? We need to look for the works for confirmation, as we are prone to error when it comes to judging the hearts of others.
Thr fruit of love is not the same as works of the law.Fruit of love produces life. Failure to keep the laws produce death.To walk by the laws you can never ever ever fail one tiniest part or consequences is death.To walk in love is to walk in Gods grace and forgiveness and truth. All judgement and consequences of Sin fall on Jesus for those who believe and trust in his fullfillment of the law.Christ obeyed the commandments of God even unto death so we can obey Christs commandments to walk in love.

 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Kind acts towards the needy are found in the Torah, as well as commanded in Isaiah and Proverbs and other places.

but Abrahams 'act' was not only a kind act toward the needy.... it was the act of sacrificing (killing) his son. That was clearly not a mosaic law...it was against the mosaic law yet Abraham was willing to do that at Gods request.


But that's not even what this is about. Paul is basically saying Abraham wasn't justified by works, and there was no laid out Law in Abraham's day except for that which was told to Him, which is not stated specifically. Abraham's faith however, was established through his obedience to God's "statutes, judgments, and ordinances". We can only speculate that such were exactly similar to the Mosaic Law, and there's good reason to speculate that.

You can speculate on what those ordinances and statutes were, but you cannot say that murdering ones son is one of them.

So really, Abraham was obedient to ANYTHING that God required of him...it had nothing to do with laws and everything to do with obedience driven by faith. And that is why we are told that Abraham was justified by his 'faith' and not his works.
 
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