James 2:21 versus Romans 4:2. How was Abraham Justified?

[Shermana]

I don't know, but he must have been, if you believe in Gen 26:5

Maybe it's not something he felt he needed to share with us.

Abraham was circed at 90.

However, Moses was almost killed for not circing his son, BEFORE he received the Law.

Pegg still has yet to explain what "Judgments, statutes, and ordinances" Abraham obeyed and what would have happened if he didn't.

 

[Jonathan Hoffman]

Wow! That's interesting. Your sources?

 

[Desert Snake]

Abraham was circed at 90.

However, Moses was almost killed for not circing his son, BEFORE he received the Law.

Pegg still has yet to explain what "Judgments, statutes, and ordinances" Abraham obeyed and what would have happened if he didn't.

And yet the NT does away with this law.
Incidentally, I've read that most of ancient Yisrael wasn't circumcised either, I'm inclined to believe that.

 

[Shermana]

Wow! That's interesting. Your sources?

Excuse me, I meant 99.

1When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to him and said, “I am God Almightya; walk before me and be blameless. 2I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.”
3Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4“As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5No longer will you be called Abramb; your name will be Abraham,c for I have made you a father of many nations. 6I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”
9Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”
15God also said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. 16I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.”
17Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, “Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?” 18And Abraham said to God, “If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!”
19Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac.d I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. 21But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year.” 22When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.
23On that very day Abraham took his son Ishmael and all those born in his household or bought with his money, every male in his household, and circumcised them, as God told him. 24Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised, 25and his son Ishmael was thirteen; 26Abraham and his son Ishmael were both circumcised on that same day. 27And every male in Abraham’s household, including those born in his household or bought from a foreigner, was circumcised with him.

For Moses being nearly killed for refusing to circ his newborn son BEFORE he received the Law:

[URL="http://bible.cc/exodus/4-24.htm"]24

At a lodging place on the way, the Lord met [Moses]b and was about to kill him. 25But Zipporah took a flint knife, cut off her son’s foreskin and touched [Moses’] feet with it.c “Surely you are a bridegroom of blood to me,” she said. 26So the Lord let him alone. (At that time she said “bridegroom of blood,” referring to circumcision.)

[/URL]

Relevant Commentary:

Exodus 4:24 Bible Commentary

 

[Shermana]

And yet the NT does away with this law.
Incidentally, I've read that most of ancient Yisrael wasn't circumcised either, I'm inclined to believe that.

No, it does not do away with this Law. At best, depending on how you interpret it and whether you regard various non-church-aligned scholarly agreements on interpolation issues, it only applies to gentiles, not Jewish Christians, and that's debatable.

We've been over this over hundreds of posts.

Regardless of such, if this Law had not existed before Moses, why was Moses almost killed for not circing his son?

What were the "judgments, statutes, and ordinances" that Abraham obeyed before this Law which was "perpetual for all generations" existed?

Interestingly, if this Law was undone, then God is a liar, since he said the Law was "perpetual" and "to the thousandth generation". (It hasn't been anywhere close to a thousand generations).

Jesus would also be a liar since he said heaven and earth would collapse first before a single "iota would be made void".

Interesting how Paul turns God and Jesus into liars.

 

[Pegg]

Maybe she hated her own Canaanite rulers. Maybe she believed in the God of Israel. This is but one decent example which the text acknowledges. I want more examples that CHRISTIANS WOULD ACTUALLY DO.

great, so you see the point then. Her belief in the God of Isreal moved her to do a good deed toward 2 Isrealite men.

And for the faith she showed, she became the Great Grandmother of King David.

Why is it ALWAYS so hard, when I ask anyone promoting the "Faith" and "grace" thing to EVER provide examples of what Christians' good works might be in day to day life? It's really a strange phenomenon of just how difficult it is. I should really make a whole thread on this.

faith in Jesus would require christians to obey his teachings. One of those teachings is to "go forth and preach that the good news of the kingdom has drawn near"
So christians should all be preachers of this good news...if they truly believe and follow Jesus, faith would move them to act in accord with his instructions.

Christians were also advised to 'remain separate from the world' ... faith would move them to comply with this. They would show by their lifestyle that they are keeping separate from the world.

Christians were told that they must have 'love among themselves' ...this should be seen in the way they treat one another, there should be the bond of peace among them and they should also be unified.

these are just a few examples

That's a good work? That's an act of faith?

Yes it is an act of faith on Josephs part. When he lived, the Isrealites had not entered the promised land....at that time it was still a 'promise' of God. Joseph was so convinced that Gods promise would come true that he asked for his bones to be carried into the promised land when they finally got there.

So it was an act of faith... Joseph was 100% convinced that the Isrealites would see the promised land... to him it was "an assured expectation of things hoped for"

Good works are not only the things we do for other people...they are also the things we do for God and Joseph was doing good toward God by confirming that Gods word was true...that the promised land would become a reality.

Probably similar to the faith some mothers have in leaving their babies in baskets at a rich person's house and leaving?

except in this case the rich persons house was the very person who had decreed that all the male children were to be killed.

So what were the "Judgments, statutes, and ordinances" that Abraham obeyed and why did he obey them? What were they and what would have happened if he didn't obey them?

the scriptures dont specifically say what they were, but they do say a lot about the conduct of Abraham.

But it does point to Abraham as someone who called on the name of the Most High. He showed great respect to the priest Melchizadek and gave him a portion of all his wealth. He showed he was a man of peace & humility in the account at Gen. 12:5; 13:7 where he allowed his nephew to take the best part of the land.
He showed his love for people when he expressed his concern over who would be saved when God rendered judgment against the wicked in Sodom and Gomorrah. (Genesis 18:23-33) He also made supplication in behalf of others. (Genesis 20:7, 17) He also showed his respect for God by making offerings to Jehovah.—Genesis 22:9-14. He showed hospitality to the visiting angels
He also obeyed Gods command to leave the city of Ur and live as an alien in the promised land...which he did.

His conduct showed the sort of man he was. And this is surely why God chose him and called him his 'friend' .... no mosaic law in sight.

 

[Pegg]

Abraham was circed at 90.

However, Moses was almost killed for not circing his son, BEFORE he received the Law.

that law was given to Abraham for all his offspring... Isrealites didnt need the mosaic law to know they must circumsize their sons because the practice began 400 odd years earlier with Abraham

But Moses grew up in the household of an Egyptian family and he married a midianite woman... obviously he wasnt practicing the customs of his true family until after God had approached him.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by Shermana
Abraham was circed at 90.
However, Moses was almost killed for not circing his son, BEFORE he received the Law.

that law was given to Abraham for all his offspring... Isrealites didnt need the mosaic law to know they must circumsize their sons because the practice began 400 odd years earlier with Abraham

But Moses grew up in the household of an Egyptian family and he married a midianite woman... obviously he wasnt practicing the customs of his true family until after God had approached him.

Hi Pegg, Abraham married Keturah after the death of Sarah and Had 12 more sons--One of whom was "Midian".

 

[Pegg]

Hi Pegg, Abraham married Keturah after the death of Sarah and Had 12 more sons--One of whom was "Midian".

that doesnt mean any of those sons became members of the isrealite nation and practiced such traditions.... the fact that Moses and Zippora had not circumsized their own son is evidence that it was not widely practiced among other people

The hebrews came through Jacobs 12 sons. (hence the 12 tribes of Isreal)

 

[Desert Snake]

No, it does not do away with this Law. At best, depending on how you interpret it and whether you regard various non-church-aligned scholarly agreements on interpolation issues, it only applies to gentiles, not Jewish Christians, and that's debatable.

Sorry but then you would have to define "Jewish".

Regardless of such, if this Law had not existed before Moses, why was Moses almost killed for not circing his son?

I don't get your point. The circumcision law did exist before Moses, AFAIK.

What were the "judgments, statutes, and ordinances" that Abraham obeyed before this Law which was "perpetual for all generations" existed?

That's up for debate, probably very similar to the Mosaic laws​

Jesus would also be a liar since he said heaven and earth would collapse first before a single "iota would be made void".
Interesting how Paul turns God and Jesus into liars.​

Nope, because the Torah laws aren't necessary for any Xians, it's you who are trying to find various loopholes in Scripture to fit your agenda, not most other Xians. , it was changed, the Covenant changed, otherwise, one is just practicing Judaism.
​

 

[Shermana]

Disciple:

Nope, because the Torah laws aren't necessary for any Xians, it's you who are trying to find various loopholes in Scripture to fit your agenda, not most other Xians. , it was changed, the Covenant changed, otherwise, one is just practicing Judaism.

Okay, that's a nice opinion which we've gone over plenty of times, but I've already shown how wrong it is, so I"ll just assert that just like you've asserted yours to save time. Accusing me of trying to find loopholes to fit my agenda is cute, as if gentile Chrisitans don't do similarly.

No, the covenant was not really changed to discard the Laws. If you want to call God and jesus liars, since God said it's for "All generations" and "perpetual", that's fine. If you want to call Jesus a liar who said that Heaven and Earth will collapse before a single iota of the Law is void, that's fine. You didn't really disprove what I said about them being liars by that phrases, you just went "nuh uh", so I assume you have no response to the accusation that such an interpretation is thus, indisputably calling God and Jesus liars when they specifically both said the law is eternal and binding, is that correct?

Now if you want to say that it's still binding for Jewish Christians and not gentile Christians, we can agree to disagree, since Acts 21 is quite clear that the Jerusalem Church had a problem with the idea of Paul telling Jewish Christians to give up Moses, and the interpolation issues are up to dispute as well, with it basically being the Tubingen schools vs. Orthodox Church scholars. But if you want to insist on this position that I've disproven over and over, maybe we should start a new thread specifically for that.