• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Israel Should Be Stopped

Messianic Israelite

Active Member
Bad enuf that Israel has brutalized & oppressed Palestinians
for most of a century. Even more heinous is the genocide
against Palestinians.
Now it's begun attacks in other countries...which will provoke
more attacks...which will provoke ever more attacks...& so on.
This is not about self defense.
It is deadly blind vengeance fueled by religious bigotry.

USA props up Israel with money, weapons, & political
cover at the UN. This gives Israel the unlimited ability
to violate human rights & international law with impunity.
This must change.
Otherwise USA will be waging war on behalf of Israel.
Israel must be de-fanged before it precipitates WW3.

Biden & even some in Congress now seem concerned.
But still, USA leaders takes no steps to curb the carnage.
They have the power to stop it.
Instead, it's all talk & no walk.

What inspired this thread?
Israel indends to strike Iran's nuclear facilities in retaliation
for Iran's likely retaliation for Israel's attack on Iran's embassy.
Iran is prepared to respond on a much larger scale.
Escalation would be inevitable, with USA taking the
wrong side, ie becoming a war criminal state.
This should not happen.

Good evening Revoltingest.

The term 'genocide' is bandied about very loosely today. Israel has a right to defend herself. It seems you are simply repeating the rhetoric and lies promulgated by Hamas, the same Hamas which is teaching it's children in schools that if you have 5 Israeli's and you kill 3, how many are left. That's right. They are combining the indoctrination of their youth to exterminate the Jews with their curriculum. Either you have a very faulty memory, or you are simply deluded. Let's look at the definition of genocide. The first definition that I saw in putting this term in Google was this: "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group."

As far as I can see, Israel has no intention of destroying any nation. They have an intention of defending themselves against terror. Hamas are the aggressors, but you fail to see that.

Now rewind to 1941. Or are you one of these foolish holocaust deniers? Genocide, ethnic cleansing, mass murder, mass shooting, death marches, poison gas, hate crime - around 6 million Jews died during the holocaust. Now that WAS genocide. And following what has been centuries of the horrible treating of Jews by Chr-stians also, they were eventually afforded a land which they could call their own, not without complications and even a desire to wipe out Israel and the Jews since its inset.

So let's talk about that genocide. Let's talk about the fact that the Jews have been hated upon in every single country they have resided. They have been expelled from countries. They have been persecuted. They have been ridiculed. The Jewish people base their claim to the land of Israel on at least four premises: 1) Yahweh promised the land to the patriarch Abraham; 2) the Jewish people settled and developed the land; 3) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people and 4) the territory was captured in defensive wars.

As soon as Israel retaliates against aggression, "Don't do that! It's genocide!" What would you have Israel do? Lie down and take a beating? Do nothing while Iran threatens to wipe Israel off the face of the map? Do nothing while Hamas is devising to destroy as many Jews as possible? If you live in la la land, then sure, Israel is in the wrong, has no right to be there and should not be able to defend itself. Hamas needs to be removed, the hostages released and they cannot be allowed to commit the atrocities of October 7 again where they killed, tortured, ridiculed, burnt alive, raped and mutilated women, as well as showed no compassion to babies, or elderly. You want to defend wicked people, that's something you will have to deal with. But might I suggest the reason for this is the following:

Proverbs 28:4
"They that forsake the law praise the wicked; But such as keep the law contend with them."
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The term 'genocide' is bandied about very loosely today.
Israel's genocide of Palestinians meets
the the 1948 UN definition.
Israel has a right to defend herself.
No one disputes that.
Israel is doing something else.
It seems you are simply repeating the rhetoric and lies promulgated by Hamas,
It seems you are simply repeating Zionist propaganda.
So I'll skip the rest.
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Ah I see you don't know what hudna is.
So if I've misinterpreted "your" meaning of the word hudna, please enlighten me.
Typical westerner.
This westerner, typical or not, appreciates your clarification.
Yes, the Hamas leaders are offering to lay down their guns for a significant duration of time if these previous boundaries are reinstated. It's a beginning!!!
 
Last edited:

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
I on the other hand would appreciate terrorist sponsoring nations like Iran to be knocked down a few considerable pegs into submission and crippling terrorists like Hamas in the process.

What about terrorist sponsoring nations like USA to be knocked down a few pegs ... crippling terrorists like Israel in the process .. 10 times bigger terrorists than Hamas .. and that was before Oct 7.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
What about terrorist sponsoring nations like USA to be knocked down a few pegs ... crippling terrorists like Israel in the process .. 10 times bigger terrorists than Hamas .. and that was before Oct 7.
I'm sure you can provide a list of Israeli terrorist suicide bombers including using their own children as a means to an end and even a wall of martyrdom encouraging its civilians to attack masses of people and memorialize each them.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
I'm sure you can provide a list of Israeli terrorist suicide bombers including using their own children as a means to an end and even a wall of martyrdom encouraging its civilians to attack masses of people and memorialize each them.
Yes .. easy .. there is a long list of Israeli Terrorist actions .. and this is prior to Oct 7 .. far more than Hamas . I am sure you can provide a list of Hamas Terrorist attacks prior to Oct 7 .. please do so.

"using human sheilds as a means to an end and even wall of martyrdom .. encouraging its civilians to attack masses of people" thats hilarious .. and a great description the Israeli's .. far more so than the Palestinians .. Kind of priceless if it were not so horribly uninformed.

Looks like we have a case of upsidedownitus .. comes from ingesting too much of that Big Brother doublespeak .. the adherent ends up with everything backwards .

I look forward to that list of Hamas terrorist attacks on Israel Prior to Oct 7
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Yes .. easy .. there is a long list of Israeli Terrorist actions .. and this is prior to Oct 7 .. far more than Hamas . I am sure you can provide a list of Hamas Terrorist attacks prior to Oct 7 .. please do so.

"using human sheilds as a means to an end and even wall of martyrdom .. encouraging its civilians to attack masses of people" thats hilarious .. and a great description the Israeli's .. far more so than the Palestinians .. Kind of priceless if it were not so horribly uninformed.

Looks like we have a case of upsidedownitus .. comes from ingesting too much of that Big Brother doublespeak .. the adherent ends up with everything backwards .

I look forward to that list of Hamas terrorist attacks on Israel Prior to Oct 7
Maybe you misunderstood.

Here. So you are more informed on the people you appear to willingly defend.



So. Any Israelis that matches or exceeds the terrorists here?
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
Maybe you misunderstood.

Here. So you are more informed on the people you appear to willingly defend.



So. Any Israelis that matches or exceeds the terrorists here?

Nope .. pretty sure the misunderstanding is all yours .. and definitely am more informed than you but that is not saying much as the bar is quite low .. . Hamas terrorism (which you failed to give but will accept Palestinian) does not even hold a candle to the Israeli Institutionalized acts of terror... war crimes .. crimes against humanity. Ethnic Cleansing and a host of other atrocities leveld on the Palestinians .. dreadfully uninformed to believe otherwise.

Israeli pilots refuse to fly assassination missions​

The 27 pilots sent a letter to the commander of Israel's airforce refusing to carry out duties, which include track and kill operations, in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. One of the pilots told Israeli television that the letter said: "We, veteran pilots and active pilots alike...are opposed to carrying out illegal and immoral attacks, of the type carried out by Israel in the territories.

"We, who have been educated to love the state of Israel refuse to take part in airforce attacks in civilian population centres. We refuse to continue harming innocent civilians."

Dropping 1000lb bombs on crowded high rise apartment blocks did not start with Oct 7 IDF has been doing this for decades. called out by the UN for such crimes so many times over the last 70 years .. they lost count..

Here a wiki ... here is a further list of "Assassination missions" -- code for Terrorist attack 90% of the time.

 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Okay, I'm going to attempt a fairly fantastical hypothetical in the hopes of illustrating a point relating to objections about Israel's actions in Gaza. To be clear, this hypothetical is not meant to be any kind of direct parallel, or be realistic in any way. It's meant purely to illustrate a moral point that is being made by multiple posters, myself included, that seems to be being lost somewhere between "Israel is defending itself" and "Israel is doing genocide". Hopefully, this hypothetical may at least allow for some kind of discussion on the morality of what is happening, and get us talking about what is actually happening and what Israel and Hamas are actually doing rather than lodging all discussion in broad terms like "defence" or "collateral" or "genocide" that only seem to end in us quibbling about definitions.

I would also like to say that this hypothetical lodges itself completely in the realm of science fiction, so you need not call into question how realistic it is. I also don't necessarily expect the hypothetical to be met with unanimous "Ahh, I get it now!". It's merely an attempt to illustrate a moral dimension of this debate that I feel some people may be missing. Specifically, it's dealing with the "human shields" and "collateral damage" arguments being made to defend Israel's actions.

Let's give it a go.

Imagine if the exact same scenario were happening; Hamas attacked Israel in the exact same way, Israel are going to respond in the exact same way. But now imagine that Hamas - through some nefarious means, or perhaps through some hitherto unknown scientific breakthrough that they have kept to themselves - have developed an incredibly advanced and very specific kind of force-field around Gaza.

Now, this force-field doesn't stop missiles from coming into Gaza - that's not what it's designed to do. But, in line with what many people rightly recognise as Hamas' complete indifference to (if not active delight in) civilian deaths both in Gaza and Israel, what this force-field does is create an exact copy of every rocket or military ordinance fired into Gaza, then fires it directly back into a random city in Israel (we'll say that these copied rockets somehow completely by-pass any defence systems Israel has, and always cause roughly the same amount of damage as the initial rocket). In other words, every bit of damage caused in Gaza will result in a roughly similar level of damage to what is likely a civilian area in Israel.

Now, the question: Under these circumstances, do you believe Israel would or should continue bombarding Gaza in the same way or to the same extent? And if not, the question would be If the argument is that any collateral damage can be blamed on Hamas, why not? They're essentially doing the same thing they were doing before: using civilians as human shields. The only difference now is those human shields are both Israeli and Gazan civilians. If Israel would apply less firepower to the exact same problem, does that not indicate that the issue isn't that Hamas are using human shields and that any civilians being killed are just inevitable collateral that can be blamed on Hamas, it's that the civilians being killed are Gazans, and less care or consideration is made for their lives than would be made for Israeli civilians.

Does anybody feel this hypothetical makes any kind of point?
 
Last edited:

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
The mistake is not wanting to address the point.
Yeah the point that Hamas and IRA are not the same and do not have the same goals.

Crazy stuff.


So if I've misinterpreted "your" meaning of the word hudna, please enlighten me.
Just look how Hamas has used the term hudna in the past.

This westerner, typical or not, appreciates your clarification.
Yes, the Hamas leaders are offering to lay down their guns for a significant duration of time if these previous boundaries are reinstated. It's a beginning!!!
Yes for a time.
Why do you think for a time?
What do you think they would do in the meantime?

Are you stuck on the 6.10.? After all then was hudna.
Did it continue?

They all take you as a joke telling you what you want to hear.
It's always the same story.
For some reason you want to save the terrorists from meeting their proper fate.
For some reason you want to keep them in power.

Why don't you adopt them and bring them to your country if you like them so much.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
For some reason you want to save the terrorists from meeting their proper fate.
For some reason you want to keep them in power.
Actually, Spice has argued against terrorism,
especially by Israel, whose state terrorism has
been the deadliest in the region.
 
Last edited:

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Bad enuf that Israel has brutalized & oppressed Palestinians
for most of a century. Even more heinous is the genocide
against Palestinians.
Now it's begun attacks in other countries...which will provoke
more attacks...which will provoke ever more attacks...& so on.
This is not about self defense.
It is deadly blind vengeance fueled by religious bigotry.

USA props up Israel with money, weapons, & political
cover at the UN. This gives Israel the unlimited ability
to violate human rights & international law with impunity.
This must change.
Otherwise USA will be waging war on behalf of Israel.
Israel must be de-fanged before it precipitates WW3.

Biden & even some in Congress now seem concerned.
But still, USA leaders takes no steps to curb the carnage.
They have the power to stop it.
Instead, it's all talk & no walk.

What inspired this thread?
Israel indends to strike Iran's nuclear facilities in retaliation
for Iran's likely retaliation for Israel's attack on Iran's embassy.
Iran is prepared to respond on a much larger scale.
Escalation would be inevitable, with USA taking the
wrong side, ie becoming a war criminal state.
This should not happen.
Go ahead, tell us, what is your "Final Solution"?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Go ahead, tell us, what is your "Final Solution"?
I've already posted my path to peace multiple
times. If it's not sunk in yet, & you believe
it to be extermination of Jews (as "Final
Solution" suggests), then I'll not waste time
posting it all again.
You may search for those posts. And if you
want to discuss them without such histrionic
hostility in a post, I'll gladly do so.
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Yeah the point that Hamas and IRA are not the same and do not have the same goals.

Crazy stuff.



Just look how Hamas has used the term hudna in the past.
It's a START
Yes for a time.
Why do you think for a time?
What do you think they would do in the meantime?
I wonder why they wouldn't trust Bibi's regime -- I refuse to lay this mess on "the people" by saying Israel.
Are you stuck on the 6.10.? After all then was hudna.
Did it continue?
I'm not "stuck" on anything. I keep the past in mind, but LIVE and deal in the present.
They all take you as a joke telling you what you want to hear.
It's always the same story.
It can't be "the same story" for this is NOW. Every struggle is new in many ways.
For some reason you want to save the terrorists from meeting their proper fate.
I want the PEOPLE saved!!!
For some reason you want to keep them in power.
That is up to the citizens of Palestine. In the proposal the Hamas leaders agree to a government being formed.
Why don't you adopt them and bring them to your country if you like them so much.
I keep in mind the ancestors who stood up against the strangling hold of this country's past. (And the people they took the land from.) They established a government when they could have easily set up a monarchy. I also look to our present. We have our internal "invasion" we struggle with. What's so wrong with being on the side of BOTH "peoples" in empathy and hope their leaders will be sensible in disagreement?
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
Actually, Spice has argued against terrorism,
especially by Israel, whose state terrorism has
been the deadliest in the region.
Really now?
The deadliest?
Deadlier than the Syrian civil war, Yemen civil war and Sudan civil war?
The more you know.


It's a START
No it's not.
Hamas has used every single Hudna to rearm and strengthen its hold on Gaza.

At no point in time have they ever even slightly indicated to not continue the fight.

You are all falling for the simplest tricks.
It's not even a trick, they just tell you lies that you want to hear.

I wonder why they wouldn't trust Bibi's regime -- I refuse to lay this mess on "the people" by saying Israel.
Ah so now Israel is responsible for Hamas actions.
Good you are finally coming clear.
It's important to be honest.

The current Israeli government is democratically elected and in power through democratic means.
It is by definition not a "regime" who are usually called like that because of the undemocratic nature of being in power.

I'm not "stuck" on anything. I keep the past in mind, but LIVE and deal in the present.
Ah right.
So they lied in the past and used every single Hudna to rearm, but you know they might not this time.
Why not simply try it out.
What is the worst that could happen.
It's after all not your butt on the line.

It can't be "the same story" for this is NOW. Every struggle is new in many ways.
Yeah yeah it's all completely new.
Totally unheard and whatever.

Apparently Hamas magically changed.
It's a miracle!
How did it change? Who knows, let's just make it up, perhaps it'll prove to be true.

I want the PEOPLE saved!!!
What people?
The Gazans?
From what exactly?
Because you seem quite dead set on them having to live under Hamas with its brutal repression that saw the literal death of all opposition figures.

That is up to the citizens of Palestine. In the proposal the Hamas leaders agree to a government being formed.
Exactly how naive are you exactly?
Have you studied the conflict, Hamas, ever before 7.10.?
Because it sure as hell doesn't sound like that.
Absolute naivety on display.
Hamas has not allowed any form of democratic action in their almost 17 years of rule in Gaza.
But yeah sure, now they'll do that.

I keep in mind the ancestors who stood up against the strangling hold of this country's past. (And the people they took the land from.) They established a government when they could have easily set up a monarchy. I also look to our present. We have our internal "invasion" we struggle with. What's so wrong with being on the side of BOTH "peoples" in empathy and hope their leaders will be sensible in disagreement?
I have no clue what country you are even talking about.

Your entire post shows that you have absolutely zero clue on the Middle East, let alone the Arab-Israeli conflict.
You don't know the simplest things about Hamas and expect them to be level-headed people who just needed a nudge to give peace a chance.
Are you by chance a student at a US university?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Really now?
The deadliest?
Deadlier than the Syrian civil war, Yemen civil war and Sudan civil war?
We're discussing the Israel v Hamas
conflict, & Israel's genocide.
Don't change the context, eh.
Ah so now Israel is responsible for Hamas actions.
After 70+ years of oppression, apartheid,
murder, theft, diaspora, genocide, & now
starvation, yes....Israel is responsible for
creating conditions that inspire violent
response by desperate people.
It's important to be honest.
I advise the same of you.
Learn....think outsider of Israeli propaganda.
Let go of hatred of Muslims. Recognize
Israel's human rights crimes. Denounce them.
Then we might have some common ground
for discussion.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I've seen this escalating dramatically for weeks. I agree, it's almost to the point of no return, I fear. But there's one correction to your wording I'd like to make: change "Israel" to "Netanyahu." Bibi must be stopped. I think the majority of Israel agrees.
What is missing here is the fact of thousands of years of tribal warfare between Judaism, Christianity and Islam. This is just one more bloody chapter. This is the longest tribal war in history.

Both Israel and Hamas and most Muslims are intransigent and have no intention of negotiating an equitable settlement in the history of this conflict. There is a history of atrocities on both sides of the conflict.

Israel wants to cleanse all Muslims from Israel. Israel is a Jews only state by the Constitution and Law. The Muslims want to eliminate the State of Israel.

Both sides have been bankrolled massively over the years by all sides including Oil money.

The US under Biden has no power here, because of intransigence of both sides, international trade any boycott like in Russia is useless. The conservative side of America will never allow any reduction of funding of Israel Trump will take a harder line against the Palestinians
 
Last edited:
Top