Israel is losing militarily and politically

[metis]

Another answer to @metis comes from the Israeli government. The occurs during a time when Hamas is back in Northern Gaza. with heavy fighting occurring. I don't necessarily need to agree with all Gantz proposes but it seems like a good place to start reversing the slide of Israel into a status similar to North Korea.

Israeli minister Gantz presents ultimatum to Bibi on post-Gaza war strategy​

That's not an "answer" as strategies differ as there's many balls being juggled all at the same time.

Here's an article you might find interesting:

The case against Israel has just collapsed

By rights, this should be the moment that the humanitarian case against Israel’s campaign in Gaza goes into terminal collapse. From now on, there can be no equivocation. Those who persist in opposing the war based on the number of civilian casualties are either ignorant or arguing in bad faith...

news.yahoo.com

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Here's an article you might find interesting:

The case against Israel has just collapsed

By rights, this should be the moment that the humanitarian case against Israel’s campaign in Gaza goes into terminal collapse. From now on, there can be no equivocation. Those who persist in opposing the war based on the number of civilian casualties are either ignorant or arguing in bad faith...

news.yahoo.com

You - and that author - have seriously misunderstood what's going on with the revised death stats.

It used to be that victims would be assigned to demographic categories based on a preliminary review. Now, victims are categorized as "unknown" until they can be positively identified as a specific person.

This means that the ~10,000 bodies still waiting for positive identification have been all recategorized as "unknown" for now. It also means that bodies too far gone to be identified will stay categorized as "unknown" forever.

If you're counting it as a "win" that child-sized corpses burned so badly they can't be identified now no longer show up as "children" in the death stats, I'm not sure what I can say to make you develop a conscience.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

You - and that author - have seriously misunderstood what's going on with the revised death stats.

It used to be that victims would be assigned to demographic categories based on a preliminary review. Now, victims are categorized as "unknown" until they can be positively identified as a specific person.

This means that the ~10,000 bodies still waiting for positive identification have been all recategorized as "unknown" for now. It also means that bodies too far gone to be identified will stay categorized as "unknown" forever.

If you're counting it as a "win" that child-sized corpses burned so badly they can't be identified now no longer show up as "children" in the death stats, I'm not sure what I can say to make you develop a conscience.

It's pretty disgusting that people genuinely seem to think "estimated counts of women and children dead are lower than anticipated (but not overall deaths), therefore Israel is doing nothing wrong". As if AT LEAST 13,000 dead women and children and 20,000+ others who may not be identifiable (plus countless others not counted because they're either in mass graves or under rubble) is a perfectly justifiable outcome.

These people are just pro-genocide at that point.

Not that posters like Metis will ever admit to re-posting explicit propaganda that deliberately misrepresents the actual facts, because supporting Israel is more important than rightly acknowledging tens of thousands of deaths. Nobody would call this kind of behaviour anything other than genocide denial in any other context, but here we are.

 

[sun rise]

That's not an "answer" as strategies differ as there's many balls being juggled all at the same time.

Here's an article you might find interesting:

The case against Israel has just collapsed

By rights, this should be the moment that the humanitarian case against Israel’s campaign in Gaza goes into terminal collapse. From now on, there can be no equivocation. Those who persist in opposing the war based on the number of civilian casualties are either ignorant or arguing in bad faith...

news.yahoo.com

ICC prosecutor seeks arrest warrants against Sinwar and Netanyahu for war crimes over October 7 attack and Gaza ​

 

[Revoltingest]

Here's an article you might find interesting:

The case against Israel has just collapsed

By rights, this should be the moment that the humanitarian case against Israel’s campaign in Gaza goes into terminal collapse. From now on, there can be no equivocation. Those who persist in opposing the war based on the number of civilian casualties are either ignorant or arguing in bad faith...

news.yahoo.com

I find it to be propaganda.
Excerpted....
Jake Wallis Simons is editor of the Jewish Chronicle and author of ‘Israelophobia’

 

[sun rise]

I find it to be propaganda.
Excerpted....
Jake Wallis Simons is editor of the Jewish Chronicle and author of ‘Israelophobia’

Given that the ICC is in effect saying both sides may be war criminals, "Collapsed" is clearly totally wrong.

 

[Lyndon]

Evidently Hamas treats its hostages with more decency and respect than the Israelis treat the Palestinian prisoners, makes you wonder who the real animals are???

Gaza detainees shackled, blindfolded and in nappies at Israel hospital

Allegations centre on a military hospital where, a whistle-blower said, painkillers were "routinely" not used in procedures.

www.bbc.com

 

[Revoltingest]

Evidently Hamas treats its hostages with more decency and respect than the Israelis treat the Palestinian prisoners, makes you wonder who the real animals are???

Gaza detainees shackled, blindfolded and in nappies at Israel hospital

Allegations centre on a military hospital where, a whistle-blower said, painkillers were "routinely" not used in procedures.

www.bbc.com

I just heard about that on NPR. Prisoners taken
are regularly beaten just for fun or out of anger.
So much for Israel's claim that it's the most
moral army. Perhaps they base this on the
paucity of soldiers ever being convicted of
war crimes.
"We've investigated ourselves & found that
we're the most moral people on Earth."

 

[Yerda]

You - and that author - have seriously misunderstood what's going on with the revised death stats.

I doubt the author has misunderstood - it's just that they write for the Telegraph. Used to be a serious paper but now it's all moon-howling right wing nuttery. Virulent bigotry, culture war hysterics and bat**** crazy lies on your breakfast table daily, sir.

 

[metis]

This is a war. How many civilians died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Were there war crime's charges to the U.S.? How about the bombings against Germany? Any war crimes charges then?

Is it terrible, imo, that we see so many innocent Palestinians being killed by Israeli strikes? Of course! But what I see with some here is blaming Israel for this while not blaming Hamas for starting this and also their refusal to stop launching rockets. If they surrendered and turned over the hostages, this would end.

If it was your town and your neighbors and your families that were under attack, would some of you take that exact same position that this is your own fault?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

This is a war.

No, it's war crimes. There's a difference.

How many civilians died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

There is a lot of disagreement about whether or not Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes due to a complexities of the specific situation. Nowadays, academics tend to lend towards both bombings being unjustified.

Were there war crime's charges to the U.S.?

No. And there perhaps should have been. But this is whataboutism. It doesn't justify what's CURRENTLY being done by ANY state.

How about the bombings against Germany? Any war crimes charges then?

See above. This is pure whataboutism.

Is it terrible, imo, that we see so many innocent Palestinians being killed by Israeli strikes? Of course! But what I see with some here is blaming Israel for this while not blaming Hamas for starting this and also their refusal to stop launching rockets.

Because the blame lies with Israel who are engaging in war crimes. Believe it or not, it is possible to respond to acts of terrorism and war crimes without committing war crimes. Lots of countries do it. This is no different to excusing Hamas' terrorism by arguing that they needn't have committed the terrorism if Israel stopped committing to colonialist violence and oppressing the people of Gaza. It's just excusing atrocities.

If they surrendered and turned over the hostages, this would end.

Hamas are a terrorist cell who believe their own destruction, and the destruction of civilians who are ostensibly under their care, makes them all martyrs. They don't care about civilian deaths. That is not a license for any other nation to do the exact same thing. Generally speaking, lowering your moral standards to that of terrorist death cults when you're a developed nation with an advanced military isn't a good sign of moral standing, and expecting such groups to suddenly act in the interests of civilians (when they likely have never done so before) is essentially a death sentence to all the civilians in Gaza.

It's the "stop hitting yourself" defense, writ large. The implication is that Israel can literally do no wrong, provided it has even the slightest pretext. Any atrocities or crimes committed by Israel can all just be blamed on the other, and no accountability can fall at Israel's feet, because they cannot be considered responsible for their own actions.

"Look, guys, if you want us to stop indiscriminately killing civilians and committing a laundry list of war crimes, all you need to do is tell the largely unaccountable group of Jihadi terrorists who delight in their own - and their people's - martyrdom to suddenly develop an entirely new set of moral principles that means that they care about civilian deaths. Then we can finally stop doing all these illegal and immoral things to those civilians."

If it was your town and your neighbors and your families that were under attack, would some of you take that exact same position that this is your own fault?

Literally, this logic justifies Hamas. You just made a pro-Hamas argument. You think violence and war crimes against you justifies violence and war crimes against others.

You'd fit right in with Hamas.

 

[Lyndon]

Yes its a David vs Goliath war except this time David is Palestinian

 

[metis]

It's so pathetic and highly bigoted that some will be so willing to blame Israel but not Hamas, which is the governmental body for Gaza. Yep-- anti-Semitism at its "finest".

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It's so pathetic and highly bigoted that some will be so willing to blame Israel but not Hamas, which is the governmental body for Gaza. Yep-- anti-Semitism at its "finest".

Because, to you, Israel can do no wrong and can never be blamed. As if states (or organizations representing them) have no responsibility whatsoever for the manner in which they choose to respond to acts of terrorism. So, if a state CHOOSES to respond to the actions of another state or body by indiscriminately killing civilians, it's the OTHER state or body who are to blame. Because any response is justified by any state provided it has some kind of pretext to do so. As if the very concept of "war crimes" doesn't even exist.

Which is literally no different to the logic Hamas use to justify killing hundreds of innocent Israeli civilians, is it. Which feels very much like the point.

You are, at this stage, not arguing in support of Israel's actions. You are very explicitly arguing against the very idea that ANY country can commit a war crime. You're arguing against the concept of war crimes itself.

Also, to suggest that accusing Israel of war crimes is purely just antisemitic is ACTUALLY antisemitic, since it implies that the actions of the Israeli state and the actions/beliefs of Jews broadly are the same thing. It's no different to equating the actions of an African state to "black people". It's repulsive and it ought to be beneath you, even if genocide and war crime denial aren't.

 

[sun rise]

This is a war.

Which Israel is losing both militarily (whack-a-mole is failure) and politically.

Israel made a terrible tactical blunder in targeting the AP — one it’s made many times before - Jewish "Forward". The only difference between Israel and other nations trying to control the media is that Israel backed down (temporarily IMO)

In theory, the whole episode is the result of a law, passed in early April, which allows authorities to shut down foreign media deemed to be harming “national security.”

Although the law was clearly aimed specifically at Al Jazeera, critics warned that it could be turned against anyone.

 

[sun rise]

Another example of how Israel is losing politically

The Associated Press: Spain, Ireland and Norway will recognize a Palestinian state on May 28.

 

[metis]

Which Israel is losing both militarily (whack-a-mole is failure) and politically.

Israel made a terrible tactical blunder in targeting the AP — one it’s made many times before - Jewish "Forward". The only difference between Israel and other nations trying to control the media is that Israel backed down (temporarily IMO)

In theory, the whole episode is the result of a law, passed in early April, which allows authorities to shut down foreign media deemed to be harming “national security.”

Although the law was clearly aimed specifically at Al Jazeera, critics warned that it could be turned against anyone.

Why do you refuse to answer the question I asked you in my post #110?

Hey, don't feel too bad as the others who also moan & groan don't answer it either. It reminds me of something my mother told me several decades ago: It's easy to raise someone else's children other than your own.

 

[Revoltingest]

If it was your town and your neighbors and your families that were under attack, would some of you take that exact same position that this is your own fault?

I would favor self defense.
This would include civilian deaths.
But not purposeful killing (genocide) of civilians because of who they are, ie, Muslims.

 

[sun rise]

Why do you refuse to answer the question I asked you in my post #110?

Hey, don't feel too bad as the others who also moan & groan don't answer it either. It reminds me of something my mother told me several decades ago: It's easy to raise someone else's children other than your own.

If it was your town and your neighbors and your families that were under attack, would some of you take that exact same position that this is your own fault?

I took that to be a rhetorical question not needing an answer. I responded to the post itself in #115. You've not addressed my point made over and over and over in the title and OP that Israel is LOSING. And maybe from this that the point is not what the current government is claiming at all. Note that in this post and others I'm referencing Israeli sources. Such stories like this one answer your question:

Israel’s War Is Not About Bringing Down Hamas (Guy Laron is a senior lecturer in international relations at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.)

Israel clearly has little interest in recovering the hostages taken on October 7. The real objectives: protecting West Bank settlements, further eroding the judiciary, rehabilitating the military’s image, and simple revenge.
...
If so, what were the real objectives of the operation?

West Bank Settlements​

A Judicial Coup​

Rehabilitating the IDF’s Image​

Revenge​

 

[sun rise]

And what kind of nation are we talking about? Again from Jewish Forward

Israeli teachers who criticize the war have been yanked from the classroom — and thrown in jail

She is one of dozens of Israeli educators, some Palestinian and some Jewish, to be suspended or fired from local schools and universities since Oct. 7 for voicing critical opinions of Israel’s prosecution of the war in Gaza, support for Palestinian resistance, and other views the government finds objectionable. Civil rights groups and defense lawyers count at least 46 indictments over the past seven months of people in academic settings who have expressed dissent, and said that at least 28 of them spent time in jail.

“There is no freedom of speech for teachers just now,” Msarwi, who is 46 and has been teaching for 23 years, told me at her home here in Tayibe, an Arab city of 45,000 in central Israel. “We’re being persecuted for expressing our views.”

So @metis , how do you respond to this and other posts of mine?