Israel and the soon return of Yeshua Christ

[Benoni]

If one supposedly has to believe in Jesus in order to be "saved", then indeed He would have abandoned us. However, canon law does not say that we are condemned because we don't believe in Jesus.

Jesus has not abondoned the Jews He just has not called you yet.

 

[Benoni]

And the above is dealing with events several hundred years before Jesus' time and which have no relationship to Jesus one way or another. The overall theme is recurrent on events that deal both with the Assyrian occupation and the Babylonian exile.

This is true in part ; notice vs. 10

 

[Benoni]

I am sure God does know who His chosen people are and so can we from studying the scriptures. I think the problem you are having as do many is that you are confusing God’s spiritual promises and God’s national promises.

First) Jacob, also called Israel is whom from the twelve tribes originated which made up the nation of Israel. As promised in the scriptures, God has restored this nation to the land and it is only to literal Israel that the national covenant promises of God related to this land apply.

Second) One hundred years or so after the Babylonian captivity when the exiles returned to Jerusalem and the land of Israel the terms “Jews” or children of Judah" and “Israel or children of Israel” were used interchangeably by Ezra, Nehemiah, Jeremiah and in the NT by Jesus, Paul, and the other apostles showing that all the tribes were present and that “Jews’ includes all the people or tribes of Israel.

Third) In the NT in the book of Galatians Paul speaks about justification through faith and points out that when Gentiles (non-Jews or those descended from Jacob/Israel), demonstrate Abraham’s kind of faith and obedience, toward Christ they become ... Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal.3:29

When Abraham demonstrated complete faith in God, the LORD said... “blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” Genesis 22:17-18

So in this way, in a spiritual sense only Abraham’s descendants have been multiplied as the sand and stars because Jesus Christ descended from him, the nations have been blessed, and many have believed in Christ by faith, faith like Abraham’s. I think you must be careful though with such language. I believe it's important to take the scriptures literally as much as possible when it is meant to be taken so. Yet, in this case I think the language is metaphorical or figurative because even if every person in the entire world was considered one of Abraham’s descendants that still would not be as many as the grains of sand on the seashores or stars in the heavens, would it?

Finally, the NT always makes a distinction between the church (body of Christ) and Israel. I don’t believe the scriptures ever teach that the church is spiritual Israel, has replaced Israel or that they are one in the same. Israel always means Israel and the people of Israel have not disappeared, but are in Israel as well as being dispersed throughout the world and are now known as the Jews.

How can anyone have faith if God has never called them.

Besides the Bible also says:


Luke 3: 6 (Amp) And all mankind shall see (behold and [a]understand and at last acknowledge) the salvation of God (the deliverance from eternal death decreed by God).


And:

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

 

[Sees]

Decades in the future some people will still say Jesus is coming any day now...it is truly remarkable that such a thing can be said over and over again for 2,000 years. Each new generation sees signs affirming their faith in the return and points to certain parts of scripture as proof.

Some people have little sayings about fool me twice, fool me three times, etc. but after many, many millions have died ready for the return this still gets them somehow.

 

[metis]

Jesus has not abondoned the Jews He just has not called you yet.

But Jesus said he came only for us, so maybe you're outta luck?

 

[metis]

This is true in part ; notice vs. 10

But don't stop there; go onto 11+.

 

[Benoni]

But Jesus said he came only for us, so maybe you're outta luck?

Not alt all. If it wasn't for us He never will come for you

Besides the Jews is only one of twelve

 

[metis]

Not alt all. If it wasn't for us He never will come for you

John 4 [22] You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.

Besides the Jews is only one of twelve

So wrong. We do know our history, including the names and locations of the twelve tribes that eventually merged to form one, which mostly occurred during the Babylonian exile and afterword. And this is also why the tribes are not discussed as separate entities in even the gospels and epistles.

 

[InChrist]

How can anyone have faith if God has never called them.

Besides the Bible also says:


Luke 3: 6 (Amp) And all mankind shall see (behold and [a]understand and at last acknowledge) the salvation of God (the deliverance from eternal death decreed by God).


And:

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying or your point.

 

[Benoni]

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying or your point.

God gives us natural examples to show us the hidden spiritual examples.

Take a lamb. A mammal that eats grass. (whats the big deal??)

Why is a lamb symbolic and example of Jesus. Well we look at scripture and we learn a lamb is a clean animal and by the way so is a goat. What other examples can you think of???

Point being God is speaking to us with physical examples so we can hear spiritual examples.


Mount Zion is the most Holy place of God when David was king, for that is where the Tabernacle of David was during David's reign. So it is with King Jesus in the spiritual realm.


1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.

NT:5178 a

tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture).


God speaks thought His Word in many hidden and ways the below verse speaks of parable; but I will also add spiritual or scriptural numbers, mysteries (Gk) Sacred secrets, used 20 times in NT) patterns, types, different languages, even deceptions to hide His word from the religious, the , wise, the carnal; and reveal it to babes.

A babe is not the same as someone who can handle the milk of the word, anyone can handle milk; but a babe is like my small grandchildren when I speak to them; they trust everything I say, they have ears to hear.



Matthew 13 :13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; 15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' 16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;

 

[InChrist]

The reason they are lost or scattered is they lost who they were be it natural or spiritual. When was the last time you heard someone say I am from Dan or The tribe of Rueben? Lost sheep/tribe I see them one in the same.

I am afraid I disagree with the nonsensical idea that they forgot who they were or who their parents, grandparents, and ancestors before were. I have Jewish friends who know very well their family history and which tribe (such as Levi, Simeon) they descended from, information which had to be passed down through word of mouth during times of persecution, yet, nevertheless the information was passed on.

 

[InChrist]

God gives us natural examples to show us the hidden spiritual examples.

Take a lamb. A mammal that eats grass. (whats the big deal??)

Why is a lamb symbolic and example of Jesus. Well we look at scripture and we learn a lamb is a clean animal and by the way so is a goat. What other examples can you think of???

Point being God is speaking to us with physical examples so we can hear spiritual examples.

Yes, God gives examples of spiritual truth using the physical. I have no disagreement with you concerning this, we see it throughout the scriptures. Believers today can gain understanding by reading the Old Testament accounts of God's interaction with Israel and Israel's periods of obedience or disobedience, etc. But the fact that God uses examples in no way negates God's promises to the literal nation of Israel or in any way supports he idea that 10 tribes of Israel were lost.

 

[Benoni]

I am afraid I disagree with the nonsensical idea that they forgot who they were or who their parents, grandparents, and ancestors before were. I have Jewish friends who know very well their family history and which tribe (such as Levi, Simeon) they descended from, information which had to be passed down through word of mouth during times of persecution, yet, nevertheless the information was passed on.

So you know of one? WOW

How about the rest?
Notice the total? thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore;

Genesis 22:17That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

 

[Benoni]

Yes, God gives examples of spiritual truth using the physical. I have no disagreement with you concerning this, we see it throughout the scriptures. Believers today can gain understanding by reading the Old Testament accounts of God's interaction with Israel and Israel's periods of obedience or disobedience, etc. But the fact that God uses examples in no way negates God's promises to the literal nation of Israel or in any way supports he idea that 10 tribes of Israel were lost.

So where are all of these Israelites "thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore"

How many people live in natural Israel??? The physical world???

 

[metis]

So where are all of these Israelites "thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore"

How many people live in natural Israel??? The physical world???

If one accepts all verses on a completely literal basis, they will go nuts in a short period of time. Read Psalms as a case in point-- or rather, hundreds of cases. Or imagine one reading "Revelations" and taking everything literally.

 

[Benoni]

If one accepts all verses on a completely literal basis, they will go nuts in a short period of time. Read Psalms as a case in point-- or rather, hundreds of cases. Or imagine one reading "Revelations" and taking everything literally.

There is nothing literal about the book of revelation is the most spiritual book ever written. The book of genesis I put in second place. I do take the promises of God repeated over and over again as both literal and spiritual for God is a spirit. Especially when it comes to the salvation of all people He created in His image and likeness.

 

[metis]

There is nothing literal about the book of revelation is the most spiritual book ever written. The book of genesis I put in second place. I do take the promises of God repeated over and over again as both literal and spiritual for God is a spirit. Especially when it comes to the salvation of all people He created in His image and likeness.

You really need to go back and read all of Psalms and then come back here and try to write the above again. Even Ezekiel will getcha to think again.

 

[Benoni]

You really need to go back and read all of Psalms and then come back here and try to write the above again. Even Ezekiel will getcha to think again.

I have read plenty of Psalms. Do you understand why King David was so inspired?
Because he lived with the Ark of God at Mount Zion pretty much the whole time He was king. Every day he faced the glory of God where He lived and worked.

No outer court, not inner court no Holy of Holies. That is what God is going to do in the ages to come for all of us.

Amos 9:1 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
13Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
14And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
15And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

 

[InChrist]

So where are all of these Israelites "thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore"

How many people live in natural Israel??? The physical world???

I'll repeat my previous question...even if every person in the entire world was considered one of Abraham’s "seed" that still would not be nearly as many as the grains of sand on the seashores or stars in the heavens, would it??? So, the language is figurative and not to be taken in a wooden literal sense because doing so does not even support your position. Besides, I have already said that many throughout the entire world have been spiritually blessed through God's promise to Abraham

Nevertheless, there are about 6 million Jews in Israel and maybe around another 6-7 million elsewhere around the world. The population of Israel will continue to grow as God gathers the literal physical people of Israel back to the land as He foretold He would do...

Therefore, behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord, “that they shall no longer say, ‘As the Lord lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,’ but, ‘As the Lord lives who brought up and led the descendants of the house of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where I had driven them.’ And they shall dwell in their own land.” Jeremiah 23:7-8

 

[Benoni]

I'll repeat my previous question...even if every person in the entire world was considered one of Abraham’s "seed" that still would not be nearly as many as the grains of sand on the seashores or stars in the heavens, would it??? So, the language is figurative and not to be taken in a wooden literal sense because doing so does not even support your position. Besides, I have already said that many throughout the entire world have been spiritually blessed through God's promise to Abraham

Nevertheless, there are about 6 million Jews in Israel and maybe around another 6-7 million elsewhere around the world. The population of Israel will continue to grow as God gathers the literal physical people of Israel back to the land as He foretold He would do...

Therefore, behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord, “that they shall no longer say, ‘As the Lord lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,’ but, ‘As the Lord lives who brought up and led the descendants of the house of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where I had driven them.’ And they shall dwell in their own land.” Jeremiah 23:7-8

I believe it is the whole world to include all who have not lived and all that have lived and then some.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24​

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.​

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.​