Israel and the Jewish Messiah

[Desert Snake]

Hmm possibly something with more 'reasoning' or examination behind it. Actually, I wasn't necessarily "expecting" certain types of answers, but I'm a little surprised at the answers so far.

^ Notice I say 'expecting', the word you used. That isn't 'wanting'.

 

[Poisonshady313]

^ Notice I say 'expecting', the word you used. That isn't 'wanting'.

Post number 9 in this thread suggests that while you accept his answer, you're disappointed because you were hoping for something more.

hoping for is close enough to wanting.

And post number 18 in this thread indicates that you're trying something differently in order to achieve a certain result. Your reason for not being more specific is because being more specific didn't give you an "involved discussion", which, regardless of what you expected, isn't what you've gotten so far, though I presume is the whole reason you started this thread.

 

[Desert Snake]

you're disappointed because you were hoping for something more.

Nope. In fact, if someone really wants discussion, there is no need for short answers. If that's the way people answer, whatever.

hoping for is close enough to wanting.

Again, you're misreading my comments. I don't 'hope' for a forced argument. If someone really has no opinion on the issue, I'd rather they just state that.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Nope. In fact, if someone really wants discussion, there is no need for short answers. If that's the way people answer, whatever.

If you say so. I'm just stating it how it appeared to me.

Again, you're misreading my comments. I don't 'hope' for a forced argument. If someone really has no opinion on the issue, I'd rather they just state that.

I never meant to suggest you're hoping for a "forced argument".

You've said explicitly that you expected at least a "involved discussion".

And I'm just saying that, for the most part, the question doesn't really lend itself to being involved, because for the most part, Jews aren't involved in Christianity.

 

[Desert Snake]

And I'm just saying that, for the most part, the question doesn't really lend itself to being involved, because for the most part, Jews aren't involved in Christianity.

Yeah, o.k..

 

[Smart_Guy]

Disciple, are you Jewish?

And no, no matter what the answer is, it won't change the fact the I like you

If you wanna keep it undisclosed, please forgive me and ignore this post!

 

[RabbiO]

Well, since we only believe in one coming of the messiah, it's not really waiting for the "first" messiah, so much as just "the" messiah.

Since Jesus didn't do anything the messiah is supposed to do, it wouldn't make sense for us to accept him as the messiah. All the more so since he is now the focus of a non-Jewish religion, which worships him as God.

Christianity is another religion. It doesn't matter to me what another religion believes, as long as they don't attempt to force us to believe it as well.

Disciple -

Sometimes a short, concise answer says it all.

Since in one of your posts you seemed dismissive of Jewish arguments or, at least, going through them, against Jesus/Yeshusa/Yeshu being the messiah, I don't know what more a Jew could bring to the table in terms of this subject.

 

[Desert Snake]

Since in one of your posts you seemed dismissive of Jewish arguments or, at least, going through them, against Jesus/Yeshusa/Yeshu being the messiah, I don't know what more a Jew could bring to the table in terms of this subject.

Well, that works if we're only viewing the question of Jesus as the Messiah in that narrow context. As I've said, I'm o.k. with the short answers.

 

[dantech]

..., as Judaism has it's own form of Baptism.[/COLOR][/B]

Please elaborate...

 

[Desert Snake]

Please elaborate...

How about we take it in another direction.
John the Baptist wasn't Jewish? Should people just discount this aspect of Judaism?

 

[Flankerl]

How about we take it in another direction.
John the Baptist wasn't Jewish? Should people just discount this aspect of Judaism?

Just because one Jew does something that gives him something spiritually doesnt make it part of Judaism.
Especially not during the late 2nd Temple period where the Land was full of lunatics.

If the man actually existed.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Just because one Jew does something that gives him something spiritually doesnt make it part of Judaism.
Especially not during the late 2nd Temple period where the Land was full of lunatics.

If the man actually existed.

So, Frankerl, I have some good news and some bad news.

The good news is that you gave a pretty good answer.
The bad news is that it won't help.​

:sorry1:

 

[Flankerl]

I know.

 

[dantech]

How about we take it in another direction.
John the Baptist wasn't Jewish? Should people just discount this aspect of Judaism?

Here we have a whole database of Priests who got accused of pedophilia. Should people just discount that pedophilia is an aspect of Christianity?

Hopefully you will understand your mistake after this, even though Jay, and he's often right, seems to think it's useless.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Should people just discount that pedophilia is an aspect of Christianity?

Should people google something like "Jew sex scandle" and attribute the results to "aspects of Judaism"?

 

[Desert Snake]

Hopefully you will understand your mistake after this, even though Jay, and he's often right, seems to think it's useless.

Nah, this doesn't address my question. Nevermind.

 

[Levite]

I value the NT. It's great! How much wisdom is there, I din't think anyone reading it honestly can deny that.

Sure, the NT has wisdom in it. Wisdom for Christians. Most of the parts that we would agree are wise teachings are those that have analogues taught in Jewish scriptures and sacred writings, either Tanach or Talmud or Midrash.

I think the usual form of Christian worship is usually tomato/tomahto to Judaism. This isn't some wild belief, but I know that some, (many?) Jews disagree with this.

Since the usual form of Christian worship involves referring to a tripartite God, one part of which is the human being Jesus; and in some cases such worship revolves around symbolically eating the body and blood of a human being who is called God, I would sincerely doubt that there are any significant number of Jews who would consider the differences between Christian and Jewish worship to be "tomato/tomahto."

I don't believe circumcision is necessary. This is a biggie traditionally, but even many Jews share this belief.

I do not believe it is in any way accurate to suggest that "many Jews" do not believe circumcision is necessary for Jews. All four of the major movements absolutely require circumcision of male infants and uncircumcised men who wish to convert to Judaism. And in my experience as a rabbi, circumcision is usually one of the very last aspects of Jewish practice to resist assimilation and secularization: Jews who observe no ritual commandments or study Torah or whatnot will still circumcise their sons, consistently.

Having taught aspects of the laws and traditions to mohalim (ritual circumcisers) in training, and having associated with a lot of people involved in brit milah (ritual circumcision) in the non-Orthodox world, and having officiated at a number of brit milah ceremonies, I can count on one hand the number of affiliated or in any way practicing Jews I have ever encountered who rejected circumcision as a fundamental requirement for Jewish males. In my experience, anti-circumcision positions amongst Jews are generally relegated to small fringe groups on the most secular, assimilated left edge of Judaism.

Judaism has it's own form of Baptism.

I assume you are referring to mikveh. However, going to the mikveh is very different than Christian baptism, and not only in that it involves full immersion while nude into "living" water (free flowing natural spring-fed water or rainwater or melted glacial water).

Baptism is a ritual wherein the water symbolically serves to represent the "acceptance" of Jesus and the "washing away" of Original Sin that comes with the salvation through Christ.

Mikveh is primarily about purification from ritual impurity, which has nothing to do with sin (much less Original Sin, which we don't believe in). It has nothing to do with salvation (a concept that is not present in Judaism).

The primary function of mikveh is either to purify a woman's body of the ritual impurities acquired during menstruation or birth, or to prepare any Jew's body for the higher states of holiness required in going to the Temple (which is one reason why mikveh has declined in use amongst non-Orthodox Jews). Spiritual purification, even though only symbolic, is low on the list of uses for mikveh.

In addition to these things, you are leaving out some critical differences between Judaism and Christianity. Aside from the obvious theological differences between Christianity as a "complicated monotheism" and Judaism as a "pure monotheism," there are the matters of Christianity believing that Jesus has somehow absolved them of the need to follow the commandments in the Torah (except, somehow, for a random selection of those they have apparently decided he has not absolved them of the need to follow); of the difference between Christianity as a belief oriented religion and Judaism as an action oriented religion; of the difference between Christianity as centered around individual salvation and Judaism as centered around redemption for all within society; and various other key differences; Judaism is centered around the observance of the commandments and the interpretation of Torah using the focus and methodology of the Oral Torah as taught to us by the Rabbis of the Talmud, whereas Christianity does not acknowledge the Oral Torah, and rejects the authority of the Rabbis of the Talmud, instead teaching the centrality of Jesus, and the authority of his apostles, and those to whom they delegated authority in the church.

To suggest, as you seem to be doing, that there are blurry lines at best separating Judaism and Christianity, and that the differences between the two are in actuality trivial or able to be overlooked without damaging the integrity of Judaism (if not Christianity also) is simply incorrect. There is a considerable gulf of theology and practice separating the two religions: Christianity is incompatible with Judaism, and Judaism is incompatible with Christianity.

 

[Desert Snake]

Just because one Jew does something that gives him something spiritually doesnt make it part of Judaism.
Especially not during the late 2nd Temple period where the Land was full of lunatics.

If the man actually existed.

Yeah, it's a historical aspect of Judaism.

Your argumentation is basically 'my religion is better than your religion' Ping-Pong.

If you think the man didn't exist, then we're left questioning whether any Biblical people existed, great.

 

[Desert Snake]

In addition to these things, you are leaving out some critical differences between Judaism and Christianity. Aside from the obvious theological differences between Christianity as a "complicated monotheism" and Judaism as a "pure monotheism," there are the matters of Christianity believing that Jesus has somehow absolved them of the need to follow the commandments in the Torah (except, somehow, for a random selection of those they have apparently decided he has not absolved them of the need to follow); of the difference between Christianity as a belief oriented religion and Judaism as an action oriented religion; of the difference between Christianity as centered around individual salvation and Judaism as centered around redemption for all within society; and various other key differences; Judaism is centered around the observance of the commandments and the interpretation of Torah using the focus and methodology of the Oral Torah as taught to us by the Rabbis of the Talmud, whereas Christianity does not acknowledge the Oral Torah, and rejects the authority of the Rabbis of the Talmud, instead teaching the centrality of Jesus, and the authority of his apostles, and those to whom they delegated authority in the church.

Do you consider Jews who don't follow the dietary laws, get tattoos, work on the Sabbath etc. as practicing Judaism?

 

[dantech]

Should people google something like "Jew sex scandle" and attribute the results to "aspects of Judaism"?

It isn't very different than attributing Paul's Baptism to "aspects of Judaism", is it?

I'm referring to how a religion's beliefs isn't based on its individuals' acts.