Israel and the Jewish Messiah

[Desert Snake]

I’ll say this much. Christianity started as a sect within Judaism. As Christianity left the time and place of its origin it became distinct from Judaism. I use a crude metaphor. When a light is close to an object, it will cast a very defined shadow. As the light moves away from the object the shadow becomes more and more blurred.

Not sure what you mean here. We're talking about religions, belief systems, not some 'breakaway' sect from a Judaism that you aren't even defining. John the Baptist was Jewish. I assume Yoheshuah was Jewish, at least He spoke Hebrew/ or Aramaic. Your analogy isn't making sense to me.

 

[roger1440]

Not sure what you mean here. We're talking about religions, belief systems, not some 'breakaway' sect from a Judaism that you aren't even defining. John the Baptist was Jewish. I assume Yoheshuah was Jewish, at least He spoke Hebrew/ or Aramaic. Your analogy isn't making sense to me.

I don’t think Christianity deliberately broke away from Judaism. It evolved away from it. What I mean is that as Christianity developed over the decades and centuries it slowly became more and more unlike Judaism.

 

[roger1440]

If you read my posts closely, you will find I criticize the orthodox or mainstream Christian teaching but defend the canonical Gospels. I don’t believe hot Jewish chicks can get knocked up by God. I don’t believe dead people rise from the dead and don’t believe some Jewish dude can feed 5000 people with a few measly loaves of bread and fish. Am I a Christian? 500 years ago I would have been burned at the stake.

 

[roger1440]

I'm not sure what you mean here. At some point, the people who were followers of Yeshua, regardless of who you think Yoheshuah is, were later known as Christians. Since you yourself stated that the gospels were written for Jews, then we can assume the earlier names for "Christians" weren't Greek.

Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

 

[roger1440]

I'm not sure what you mean here. At some point, the people who were followers of Yeshua, regardless of who you think Yoheshuah is, were later known as Christians. Since you yourself stated that the gospels were written for Jews, then we can assume the earlier names for "Christians" weren't Greek.

Here is an article on the topic. Rather than me copying and pasting sections you can read the whole article.
What were they before they were

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

That is not, in fact, accurate. The early generations of the Rabbis of the Talmud lived in the first century of the Common Era, and their immediate predecessors and teachers lived in the first century BCE.

Rabbinic Judaism is, at minimum, about as old as Christianity if one dates Christianity to Jesus (though I think properly speaking it ought to be dated to Paul at the earliest); there is every likelihood that Rabbinic Judaism-- in its immediate root form-- predates Christianity by several decades at the least. And, of course, Rabbinic Judaism grew out of Second Temple Judaism, and the First Temple Judaism that preceded it, over the previous millennium.

Correct - especially paragraph two.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I assume Yoheshuah was Jewish, at least He spoke Hebrew/ or Aramaic.

It's really rather embarrassing when people try so hard and fail so completely to appear knowledgable.

 

[Desert Snake]

Disciple, are you Jewish?

No. However, I have Jewish writings on various subjects, so I can argue those points.

And no, no matter what the answer is, it won't change the fact the I like you

Of course.

 

[roger1440]

I'm not sure what you mean here. At some point, the people who were followers of Yeshua, regardless of who you think Yoheshuah is, were later known as Christians. Since you yourself stated that the gospels were written for Jews, then we can assume the earlier names for "Christians" weren't Greek.

For lack of a better term, the first Christians were probably just called Jews.

 

[2ndpillar]

If you read my posts closely, you will find I criticize the orthodox or mainstream Christian teaching but defend the canonical Gospels. I don’t believe hot Jewish chicks can get knocked up by God. I don’t believe dead people rise from the dead and don’t believe some Jewish dude can feed 5000 people with a few measly loaves of bread and fish. Am I a Christian? 500 years ago I would have been burned at the stake.

Dear roger,
And how do you defend the "canonical Gospels" if you disregard what they testify? Was Elijah able to raise the dead? Was the oil in the jar able to keep from running out? Not that the "canonical Gospels" are the Word of God, but your note seems a little unstable in content, and doesn't fit either the OT or the Roman derived "canonical Gospels".

 

[Robert.Evans]

What are your thoughts on the fact that Judaism generally doesn't recognize Jesus as the Messiah, in essence waiting for the 'first Messiah'.
Do you, if you are Christian, think that this is clearly against your religious beliefs?
If you are Jewish, how does this affect your view of Christianity?

In the Gnostics it says that Yahshuah took the Kingdom by stealth. There is much hidden which is not revealed. It is revealed to some but not others. All will know eventually, but not all at the same time.

Consciousness is everything, it all evolves, so they are one chapter in this book of the Mind and we another. That is why there is a new covenant. It is the one who believes in and keeps the law of the Mashiyach that lives. Jews are of this world this aeon, like most people. If there is only one way to the Father, then what of the Mother. It appears she embraces the most.

 

[roger1440]

Dear roger,
And how do you defend the "canonical Gospels" if you disregard what they testify? Was Elijah able to raise the dead? Was the oil in the jar able to keep from running out? Not that the "canonical Gospels" are the Word of God, but your note seems a little unstable in content, and doesn't fit either the OT or the Roman derived "canonical Gospels".

Elijah never died.

 

[Desert Snake]

In the Gnostics it says that Yahshuah took the Kingdom by stealth. There is much hidden which is not revealed. It is revealed to some but not others. All will know eventually, but not all at the same time.

Consciousness is everything, it all evolves, so they are one chapter in this book of the Mind and we another. That is why there is a new covenant. It is the one who believes in and keeps the law of the Mashiyach that lives. Jews are of this world this aeon, like most people. If there is only one way to the Father, then what of the Mother. It appears she embraces the most.

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. I don't have a Bible at hand, btw, so quickly looking up verses is a tad difficult.

 

[roger1440]

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. I don't have a Bible at hand, btw, so quickly looking up verses is a tad difficult.

What he is writing about isn't in the Bible. You can read just about any version of the Bible online plus download them in the PDF format.

 

[Desert Snake]

What he is writing about isn't in the Bible. You can read just about any version of the Bible online plus download them in the PDF format.

I assume you didn't understand my comment. Having an actual bible at hand means I can look up verses and quickly cross-check them for context etc. It is better for conversational discussions.

 

[roger1440]

I'm not sure what you mean here. At some point, the people who were followers of Yeshua, regardless of who you think Yoheshuah is, were later known as Christians. Since you yourself stated that the gospels were written for Jews, then we can assume the earlier names for "Christians" weren't Greek.

The word Christian came about to mock the early believers of Jesus. The common languages of the Roman Empire during the first century were Greek and Latin. More so Greek. The word Messiah doesn’t have a Greek equivalent. As you probably already know the word Messiah means “the anointed one”. When it’s translated in Greek in the first century it would simple mean smearing oil or perfume on someone. So to call someone a Christian would actually mean a “follower of the smeared one”. In the 21st century there are about two billion people who believe in the smeared one, LOL.
. Christos = “Smeared One”? | Orchard Keeper
THE GLOSSARY

 

[roger1440]

Not sure what you mean here. We're talking about religions, belief systems, not some 'breakaway' sect from a Judaism that you aren't even defining. John the Baptist was Jewish. I assume Yoheshuah was Jewish, at least He spoke Hebrew/ or Aramaic. Your analogy isn't making sense to me.

Nearly all the gospels, canonical and non-canonical mention the death and resurrection of Jesus. ALL of Christianity rests on these two events. The problem in defining Christianity comes from what do these events mean. When attempting to define Christianity a person starts from one of two roots. One root leads to a metaphoric interpretation. The other root leads to a literal interpretation. Without the death and resurrection of Jesus there is no Christianity.

 

[Desert Snake]

The word Christian came about to mock the early believers of Jesus. The common languages of the Roman Empire during the first century were Greek and Latin. More so Greek. The word Messiah doesn’t have a Greek equivalent. As you probably already know the word Messiah means “the anointed one”. When it’s translated in Greek in the first century it would simple mean smearing oil or perfume on someone. So to call someone a Christian would actually mean a “follower of the smeared one”.

Doesn't sound like an insult to me. Seems like a language translation.

 

[2ndpillar]

Elijah never died.

Dear roger,
What does that have to do with the price of eggs? If Elijah could heal the sick and raise the dead, and keep oil from being used up, then certainly Yeshua, the prophet noted by Moses in Dt 18:18, as one you should listen too, would have similar powers.

I am just pointing out that your point of view seems a little double minded. And the fact that you accept the gospel of Luke, who notes he was not a first person witness to anything, contrary to Dt 19:15, makes me think that your position is also a little lacking in forethought, and deep into the traditions of men.

2 kings 2:9 ," When they had crossed over, Elijah said to Elisha, "Ask what I shall do for you before I am taken from you." And Elisha said, "Please, let a double portion of your spirit be upon me."

Dt 18:18," 'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

 

[2ndpillar]

Nearly all the gospels, canonical and non-canonical mention the death and resurrection of Jesus. ALL of Christianity rests on these two events. The problem in defining Christianity comes from what do these events mean. When attempting to define Christianity a person starts from one of two roots. One root leads to a metaphoric interpretation. The other root leads to a literal interpretation. Without the death and resurrection of Jesus there is no Christianity.

Dear roger,
Your point of death and resurrection only applies to "Christianity", which is simply the Roman Church and her daughters, founded on Paul and his false gospel of Grace, and Petros, and his role as the petros (small rock) the church is built on, versus petra, on which the true church is built on. Yeshua's only reference to a cross was the cross individual's bear in their life. His message was the kingdom of God, and not some false "covenant with death" based on "deception" and a "refuge of lies" Isaiah 28:15-18, "which will not stand". (Mt 7:26-27)