Isn't multiplying bread and fish kinda an easy trick?

[Rainbow Mage]

I mean, that one doesn't need a divine explination. Anybody can divide bread and fish into enough small pieces to feed a multitude. It doesn't take a magician to do that.

 

[fantome profane]

You should go into the catering business.

Seriously I did hear one interpretation that what Jesus actually did was inspire people to give and to share what they had. This is how he managed to feed the multitude, but appealing to people’s better nature. This explanation may be less “magical”, but I personally find it much more inspiring in terms of providing an example to follow.

Not that I am saying this interpretation is any more correct.

 

[fallingblood]

As the Bible implies, it is not a simple trick. We are talking about a small amount of food to feed a large multitude, with enough for all to eat there fill and still have more come back. I can tell you as a magician myself, I can not think of a simple way to make this happen.

 

[waitasec]

As the Bible implies, it is not a simple trick. We are talking about a small amount of food to feed a large multitude, with enough for all to eat there fill and still have more come back. I can tell you as a magician myself, I can not think of a simple way to make this happen.

it never happened...

 

[Rainbow Mage]

it never happened...

I agree, if we want to get technical. The scripture doesn't imply it literally happened, it later associates it with a parable.

When they asked what this meant, Jesus said beware the leaven of the scribes

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I agree, if we want to get technical. The scripture doesn't imply it literally happened, it later associates it with a parable.

When they asked what this meant, Jesus said beware the leaven of the scribes

Could you please tell me where?

 

[doppelganger]

Could you please tell me where?

In Mark 6, there is this cryptic reference at the end:

Later that night, the boat was in the middle of the lake, and he was alone on land. 48 He saw the disciples straining at the oars, because the wind was against them. Shortly before dawn he went out to them, walking on the lake. He was about to pass by them, 49 but when they saw him walking on the lake, they thought he was a ghost. They cried out, 50 because they all saw him and were terrified. Immediately he spoke to them and said, “Take courage! It is I. Don’t be afraid.” 51 Then he climbed into the boat with them, and the wind died down. They were completely amazed, 52 for they had not understood about the loaves; their hearts were hardened.

If it was a literal story about Jesus feeding five thousand people my magically increasing the nutritive output of 2 fish and five loaves of bread, what else would there be to "understand about the loaves" for someone who was there watching him do it?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

In Mark 6, there is this cryptic reference at the end:

If it was a literal story about Jesus feeding five thousand people my magically increasing the nutritive output of 2 fish and five loaves of bread, what else would there be to "understand about the loaves" for someone who was there watching him do it?

That Jesus can provide for them in spite of desperate circumstances. They were reminded by what - in the story - actually happened.

It's not a parable, though. A parable is an instrument used to teach, a story. Like the prodigal son or the parable of the talents.

 

[doppelganger]

That Jesus can provide for them in spite of desperate circumstances.

Which makes them seem rather stupid, given that they have seen him exhibit magical powers. It's very contrived and lazy storytelling.

It's not a parable, though. A parable is an instrument used to teach, a story. Like the prodigal son or the parable of the talents.

Right. I wasn't offering it as a "parable," but just that there is another reference to it elsewhere indicating that it was meant to be understood as signifying something its observers did not understand.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Which makes them seem rather stupid, given that they have seen him exhibit magical powers. It's very contrived and lazy storytelling.

They had yet to see Jesus calm a storm or walk on water.

I don't blame them in the slightest for being afraid. The little boats they were in were notorious for falling apart in storms.

 

[doppelganger]

I don't blame them in the slightest for being afraid. The little boats they were in were notorious for falling apart in storms.

Sure, but whatever they needed done, Jesus made it happen magically for them. Which, by the way, makes the story rather irrelevant as a lesson in "faith", since it doesn't actually work that way.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Sure, but whatever they needed done, Jesus made it happen magically for them. Which, by the way, makes the story rather irrelevant as a lesson in "faith", since it doesn't actually work that way.

Maybe for you, but it's not for a lot of Christians. I don't know how far back the normative interpretation goes - that the miracle stories are part of a testimony to who Jesus is and therefore a worthy object of faith - but I suspect that it's pretty far back. Every early interpreter that I've read has understood that we're different from the disciples/apostles and we shouldn't expect the same kind of miracles... Jesus revealed himself in that way and there's no need to continually do that.

It works the same way - or better - if Jesus is understood as a myth. That way, the story was created by the earliest Christians to produce Jesus as they would have liked him to have been.

 

[doppelganger]

It works the same way - or better - if Jesus is understood as a myth. That way, the story was created by the earliest Christians to produce Jesus as they would have liked him to have been.

. . . or as he needed to be to fit into a developing theology.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

. . . or as he needed to be to fit into a developing theology.

Exactly.

 

[doppelganger]

It's also curious that this story immediately precedes Jesus' deconstruction of Jewish dietary and cleanliness laws in the next chapter. The author(s) of Mark usually used the stories as illustrative of the teachings around which they were wrapped. Though I can't say I quite get the connection given the way that the story of the loaves and fishes is presented.

 

[astarath]

Dude you show me 5 loaves and 5 fish for 5000. I dont care how small those pieces are. Followed of course by the baskets of food brought back after everyone had eaten.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

It's also curious that this story immediately precedes Jesus' deconstruction of Jewish dietary and cleanliness laws in the next chapter. The author(s) of Mark usually used the stories as illustrative of the teachings around which they were wrapped. Though I can't say I quite get the connection given the way that the story of the loaves and fishes is presented.

There's the story of healing the sick at Gennesaret (Mark 6:53-6) before chapter 7, and after the teaching there's the story of the Syrophoenician Woman (7:24-30).

I don't have any irons in that fire... just throwing it out there.

 

[doppelganger]

There's the story of healing the sick at Gennesaret (Mark 6:53-6) before chapter 7, and after the teaching there's the story of the Syrophoenician Woman (7:24-30).

I don't have any irons in that fire... just throwing it out there.

Yes, and the healings at Gennasaret may also be considered as related to the teachings about the cleanliness laws, which fits with the concluding story about Jesus healing a Syro-Phoenician woman (who would have been "unclean").

It kinda makes me wonder what teaching is supported by the loaves and fishes and walking on water miracles. "Jesus is really magical" seems kinda thin as teachings in Mark go.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Yes, and the healings at Gennasaret may also be considered as related to the teachings about the cleanliness laws, which fits with the concluding story about Jesus healing a Syro-Phoenician woman (who would have been "unclean").

It kinda makes me wonder what teaching is supported by the loaves and fishes and walking on water miracles. "Jesus is really magical" seems kinda thin as teachings in Mark go.

I suspect that the miracle feeding might stand alone without a teaching. I say this because the story itself has so much strength in Christian tradition and almost certainly did not originate in Mark. That is to say, it was used in worship so much that it had the strength to stand apart from other teachings.

 

[doppelganger]

Adding to the complication is that Mark 8 includes another feeding the multitudes story that concludes with two fascinating teachings:

(1) it's not right to demand a sign as a basis for faith (which would make the seeming "teaching" of the previous loaves and fishes and walking on water story rather silly); and

(2) beware the teachings of the Pharisees. And that one is very telling that the loaves and fishes might have been intended by the author(s) as a parable:

The disciples had forgotten to bring bread, except for one loaf they had with them in the boat. 15 “Be careful,” Jesus warned them. “Watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and that of Herod.” 16 They discussed this with one another and said, “It is because we have no bread.”
17 Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked them: “Why are you talking about having no bread? Do you still not see or understand? Are your hearts hardened? 18 Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear? And don’t you remember? 19 When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up?”
“Twelve,” they replied.
20 “And when I broke the seven loaves for the four thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up?”
They answered, “Seven.”
21 He said to them, “Do you still not understand?”

So you have one feeding the multitudes story, followed by some stuff about the silliness of Jewish law on cleanliness and the healing of an unclean woman, followed by another feeding the multitude story and a concluding teaching that both of the feeding the multitude stories have something to do with avoiding the "yeast" of the Pharisees.