Isn't Islam an idol worshiping religion?

[K.Venugopal]

Well if there is only one God, then there is only one way of looking at Him. Logically there can only be one God, one Creator.

Who says so? There can be many ways of looking at a thing. Please tell me why it is logical that there can be only one God, one Creator?

How? when the creation is created, and the Creator is not. they are opposite by the definition of the word. [/font][/size][/color]

Creator and created are one as the ocean and the waves are one or as the dancer and the dance are one.

really? this is the only thing you can come up with? As I said earlier you need to define the Creator. who is He, what do you know Him as? What does He do?

The creator is Eternal and the created is transient. We, the created, can discover the Creator by discovering the eternal within us. I need not ask you how you would define the Creator. You are simply likely to quote Allah in the Quran. Nevertheless, please do quote Allah, so that we can discuss here.

but when does the Creator ever stop being Himself, or less then Himself. Never.

Did I say that the Creator ever stops being Himself or less than Himself?

Who gave you life to begin with, and who took it away?

Life is indivisible. Only forms are changed. You would say Allah gives life and takes away life. I say life orders itself in various ways and those various expressions of life are named variously - Creator and created, for instance. But when the drama of life is over, life remains – perchance to enact another drama.

As I said, before you start to elaborate on your proofs, you need to elaborate more on your views of God. for I am not sure where this is coming from like what is your souce, nor can I make out a complete picture on what you view Allah as and how you define Him.

I have been talking about my views of God. Now you want to know the source. Truly it has been said in the Quran that Muslims are a people of the book. I might emphasize, THE BOOK. What source would you accept unless it is from THE BOOK? But let me tell you, the source of my views on God are from my own self.

do you not think that Allah knows everything? isn't that another quality of Allah, His infinite knowledge of all that exists.

You speak as if you know Allah personally. You are only going by the book He sent down in which He claims to have all knowledge. I am not worried whether Allah knows everything or not. That is not relevant for me. What is relevant for me is to know what I am all about. I have access to many sources that give me a clue and encourage me to pursue the clue.

Please as I said elaborate more on you views of allah but I think it is best if you start another post. for continuing on with this for we will get off the topic, of which i am still waiting for an evidence for.
Ie. you proving to me Islam is an idol worshipping relgion? And like above you should start by elaborating on what you think idol worship is? and then by going into how you view Islam is idol worship in light of whatever evidence you manage to find if any.

If the happenings at Tirupati temple - the biggest temple of Hindu idol worshippers - and what happens at Mecca masjid, albeit on select days, are compared, much commonality of rituals would be noticed. These rituals, unique at Mecca for Muslims, are visibly centered on objects of reverence (or hatred, in the case of stoning the idols of evil Satan) and cannot be denied. If you still maintain Allah is worshipped directly without idols, I would ask you, would your worship at Mecca be complete without the rituals?

 

[gnostic]

After some considerations, I've finally voted yes, but I would like to say it is "matter of (one's) perspective" of what one can view to be idol-worshipping.

One may not view it so, but others could.

As I have already stated in my previous reply, one can view a person's reverence or zealous over a book, a building, a city or even a person, like a prophet, as an idol. Idols are not necessarily made of wood, stone or bronze.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Well, I would consider Muslims as worshipping idols in the way they treat Muhammad and the Qur'an. The same with the way they treat "holy" cities, Mecca and Jerusalem; these are like gigantic idols.

How exactly? Do we ask Muhammed or the Quran for guidance, is Muhammed who we pray to in our salat, when making Tawaf around the Kaba are we asking the Quran or Muhammed to guide us, bless, us protect us. show we one prayer of a muslim where he is asking Muhammed to help them or the Quran to grant them paradise.

We face Mecca? big deal we do not worship it. We are told by God to face it when we pray. So when you translate what we are called which is muslim. Which hopefully you are aware that it means in arabic to submit. To submit to Allah so if Allah told us to face the Kabba, the North Pole, Katmandoo or Flatbush Avenue when we pray. We face that direction. We are doing what we are told hence a form of worship. When men worshipped kings of old they did what they were told because of their status.

The way the Sudanese muslims treated the name of Muhammad, using his name, to charge a woman of blasphemy, amounts to idol-worshipping of their dead prophet. You don't need a "physical object" to call idol-worshipping.

I don't care what Sudanese muslims do. If it is not according to the Quran and Sunnah then they are doing something they themselves invented. there are people out there who spin around in circles with cone like hats on their heads while they pray. Did the Messenger of Allah do that. What he and the companions did is Islam. Anything more or less is a bidah and an innovation and as the Messenger of Allah says every innovation will lead to hellfire..

But like MidnightBlue said, Islam is not the only one. All other monotheistic Abrahamic religions are the same.

Not the only one that what? How are they same exactly? they may be similar in some concepts or ideals but they are far from the same.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Who says so? There can be many ways of looking at a thing. Please tell me why it is logical that there can be only one God, one Creator?

Allah says so for one. The other semetic religions as well. Well if God is the Creator there can only be one because by Definition if the Creator is Eternal. He was always there and never created. Created things have a beginning, and like all things with a beginning they have an end. And the end depends all upon what the Creator wants. Especially if He, Himself has control and power over all things. if He, Allah is as most people define Him as then it is unrealistic and logical for somehting which has no beginning and something that has no end as being the same. something that is Free of All needs and something that relies on the creation of the Creator for survival are never and can never be the same. The Creator, Allah whose Knowledge and Strength are Infinite and never diminish cannot be the same as something whose knowledge and strength is limited to the measure of what the Creator gives.

Creator and created are one as the ocean and the waves are one or as the dancer and the dance are one.

How? when both are created by the creator. Look at mars they say at one point there was a ocean or water there. Same for certain regions on the earth. All things are created by Allah. They are given their existence and all the things dealing with it from Him.

The creator is Eternal and the created is transient. We, the created, can discover the Creator by discovering the eternal within us. I need not ask you how you would define the Creator. You are simply likely to quote Allah in the Quran. Nevertheless, please do quote Allah, so that we can discuss here.

We are not talking about the Quran we are talking about realistic concepts based on the how we define things. It is in the definition of the word. Create: To bring something into existence, from the latin word creat which means bring forth. everything we use in our daily lives was there and we did not cause it to exist. The earth and all the things and delicate balances that are needed in order for our existence. There are countless science and biology resources of information that expound about how if this particular thing was off, or temperature removed or if this did not happen at this moment, with this amount of energy then this and that could not exist.

Did I say that the Creator ever stops being Himself or less than Himself?

Well if you say that the Creator and the creation are one, then yes you are saying that. What do you mean? Same in what? Essence? Strengh? Existence? Leave out all the other attributes. Lets just say Eternal Creator. Clearly as I said by the definition of the word the Creator is never and can never be the creation. the Creator gives and puts His Will in the Creation. He gave it its spirit and life. Everything we and the universe as a whole, do in whatever time we are given to exist and the manner by which we carry it out is given to us by Allah. We walk upright becasue Allah created us to. The fish swim with gills in water because he created them with those things that give them the ability to do it. They cannot change it. It is not judged by our own wisdom. can a human being create a brain. And give it all its abilitites. Can you yourself cause more time for you to live. Who controls that, who legislates it. Do these things in the cosmos or the universe have the knowledge to know the details to travel at this orbit at this rate in this place and we will not bump into each other. Do we decide what we will look like or what we will be or does it just happen like that . The Creator by definition created us and everything.

And He created it with a purpose, every part of every living being is there with a purpose. Your eyes, ear, legs, liver, lungs, heart all do what they do with a purpose. All to help in your existence. they were given to you as a human being in order so that you exist. Why? Why are these things given to us by the Creator and they have a purpose in keeping us alive. Is there something we are supposed to do? Do we ourselves have a purpose for existence. All the vital organs we got in a package we did not get them on a earn as you go program. If not we could not exist. Whatever you only got one of you can't make it without it. Why? Why are these things given to us with the purpose of keeping us alive? We are given them for this life so what are we to do with all these gifts. Gifts we ourselves cannot give to each other. Look how many people are waiting for organs. If we as the creation can create like the Creator everyone would have what they need. so ask yourself why do I have all these great things, all these fruits, people to interact with, things that we took from the Earth to make the things we use in our daily lives.

Life is indivisible. Only forms are changed. You would say Allah gives life and takes away life.

No I say the one who gave the existence is the one can cause it not not exist because all the strength and ability to exist is created by Allah also and fashioned for us in order for us to exist. What if He decides to remove those things. Like the Buick cannot tell the manufacturer to disassemble him, or add certain features. It is made how it is made. Now to compare People and Buicks to Human beings and creation is a rather crude analogy for they do not compare for we are more complex but you get the point.

Creator and created, for instance. But when the drama of life is over, life remains

Only for those still alive. What about the one who it is over for. does it remain for them? And what happens exactly? Nothing?

I have been talking about my views of God. Now you want to know the source.

Yeah is to unreasonable or something to ask where you got this stuff from.

Truly it has been said in the Quran that Muslims are a people of the book. I might emphasize, THE BOOK. What source would you accept unless it is from THE BOOK?

I accept anything as the truth from an individual if they present it. Like if someone gives me a book by Stephen King, it may be pretty easy to prove that he wrote it or this idea came from him. Again a crude comparison because as I said the creation cannot compare with the qualites and attributes of Allah, any good somewhat moral character we have comes from Him also. So a novel by Stephen King can never be compared to a book written by Allah. And they have to be looked at in light of the author. Now if you are talking about God, then God would surely have something to say on Himself and whatever He say is truth. All religious people generally say that about whatever God they worship. And who would know himself better then Allah, since none have seen him.

But let me tell you, the source of my views on God are from my own self.

Oh, so did God speak to your or something, in a dream, a vision, manifestation or something? Or are these concepts and observations you have come up with? Either way please elaborate.

You speak as if you know Allah personally. You are only going by the book He sent down in which He claims to have all knowledge.

I am not worried whether Allah knows everything or not. That is not relevant for me. What is relevant for me is to know what I am all about.

Really? But since He created you and everything you see. Don't you think at the bare minimum whether you believe he knows it all or not. The fact that He created all you know that exists is relevant especially if you wanting to know you you are all about as you say. who better to ask then the one who created you and everything that exists that supports your existence which He caused.

I have access to many sources that give me a clue and encourage me to pursue the clue.

Like what? You said the information was coming from you.

If the happenings at Tirupati temple - the biggest temple of Hindu idol worshippers - and what happens at Mecca masjid, albeit on select days, are compared, much commonality of rituals would be noticed. These rituals, unique at Mecca for Muslims, are visibly centered on objects of reverence (or hatred, in the case of stoning the idols of evil Satan) and cannot be denied.

Sure because they are not the same. for one there are no graven images in the masjid. So sacred statues of deities, or human beings. the only object of worship for us as muslims is the unseen God, Allah we do not know what He looks like hence we cannot construct an idol of him. Allah who we cannot see told us to caste the stones, like the Messenger did before when he threw stones at the Devil. Allah said throw them so we throw them. do we worship the stones, pray to them ask them for forgiveness. Are they what we focus our worship on or they are the object of our it. Are the stones we throw telling us to throw them. Who is telling us to do this.

If you still maintain Allah is worshipped directly without idols, I would ask you, would your worship at Mecca be complete without the rituals?

How is Allah worshipped exactly with idol? since you say it cannot be without. What idols are you speaking of? Or Maybe you should clarify what an idol is to you and is it different then that of what the dictionary defines it as?

 

[gnostic]

How exactly? Do we ask Muhammed or the Quran for guidance, is Muhammed who we pray to in our salat, when making Tawaf around the Kaba are we asking the Quran or Muhammed to guide us, bless, us protect us.

There is more to the term "worship" than just "prayers" or "praying". In fact, "praying" and "prayers" are not in the definition of "worship".

Worship can also be define as the utter reverence or devotion to a person, object or place, not just reverence to a deity.

I would suggest you look up the word "worship".

And as I said before, there is more to "idol", just an stone, wood or bronze image.

Hero worshipping a person is considered idol-worshipping. Hero-worship doesn't necessarily mean that the people pray to him, but the reverence people show to that person.

All Muslims revered Muhammad above a person's life, with such passion that it can only be considered fanaticism. They will sacrifice a person's life including their own, if it mean they thought someone had insulted Muhammad, such as the case of blasphemy case with the British teacher in Sudan. What did they charge the woman with? They charge her for insulting Islam. It would seem that Allah is not only one considering to be Islam, but the MUHAMMAD is Islam. But how can Muhammad feel insult today if he was dead for over a thousand years.

Don't get me wrong. I think all religions do this idol or hero worshipping, not just Islam. People hero-worship Moses, David, Elijah, Jesus, the saints, etc. But in the case of Christianity with Jesus and the saints, and Islam with Muhammad, people can go to the extreme. Moses is THE most important prophet in Judaism, and yet the Jews don't treat Moses in the same fanaticism as do the Christians and Muslims do with their respective leaders.

So do you think Muslims don't treat Muhammad with the "reverence" akin to "hero-worship"?

Does not equating MUHAMMAD to ISLAM to be idol-worshipping?

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

There is more to the term "worship" than just "prayers" or "praying". In fact, "praying" and "prayers" are not in the definition of "worship".

You are right there is more to the term worship especially when speaking to a muslim. for the word for worship in arabic is ibadah. and it is a very deep and rich word covering a wide range of things dealing with different forms of expressing worship of Allah. Now praying and prayers may not be included in the western definition of the word. But it is included in the islamic defintion of worship.

Worship can also be define as the utter reverence or devotion to a person, object or place, not just reverence to a deity.

yes and no in Islam according to the context of the definition.

I would suggest you look up the word "worship".

You are speaking to a muslim, as I said earlier. the term ibadah. It includes the acts of worship because Allah commands us to do these things. so we do them as a form of worship. so for us it is included. I apologize if there was a misunderstanding. For I look at it from this definition, not to say yours is wrong this is just how we understand it.

And as I said before, there is more to "idol", just an stone, wood or bronze image.

Hero worshipping a person is considered idol-worshipping. Hero-worship doesn't necessarily mean that the people pray to him, but the reverence people show to that person.

Hero worshipping? I do not understand, what is your definition of worship? If i knew what you defined it as clearly then I can try to make sense of what you say in light of how we view the word.
I lost you on it, is it like you know Allah tells us to respect and love our parents listen and obey them in the things they tell us that is good. does that mean we worship our parents even though we are fulfilling an order from Allah.

All Muslims revered Muhammad above a person's life, with such passion that it can only be considered fanaticism. They will sacrifice a person's life including their own, if it mean they thought someone had insulted Muhammad, such as the case of blasphemy case with the British teacher in Sudan.

okay again everyone always uses what people do now a days as the criterion on how to handle a situation. There were many times the messenger pbuh was insulted and people did things to him where the companions reacted like many they wanted to kill the person for the things they did. Like the guy who peed in the masjid while they was all there, or the guy who came and talked rudely to the Messenger, many of them jumped up and was eager to behead him. but we have many instances, many examples of how the Messenger pbuh let it ride, with patience, dignity, and always with a smile. yes we would sacrifice everything for the Messenger, as the companions did. But there is a way in which to do things. A way they did things and if we are not on that path we are in trouble. I told someone already the hadith of Abdullah ibn masa'ood where he was talking to the tabi'een the second best generation of the three. He told the tabi'een that if you want to follow a path, follow the path of the ones who are dead which are Muhammed and the Sahaba which Abdullah himself was a part of. But look at him even though he is among them he thinks the one who died before him are the best. he said follow the ones who are dead, why becasue the living among you may fail in their test. So people today, cannot be examples on how to deal with the test of life. They are not the example on how to life. the companions are, I know and muslims know there are many things muslims are doing, and things people are saying but they are not who guide us, they are not who we worship, they are not who we obey, they are not as I said who we follow and can not be looked at as muslims by what the Quran and Sunnah say. They are just people who may have innovated but Allah will judge them in what they do.

What did they charge the woman with? They charge her for insulting Islam. It would seem that Allah is not only one considering to be Islam, but the MUHAMMAD is Islam. But how can Muhammad feel insult today if he was dead for over a thousand years.

I do not follow. In what way is how they handled any of the issues we have seen recently like the cartoons, suicide bombings, kidnapping etc. can you give me one example from the our religion that how they handle the tests is the way the Messenger or the Sahaba did it. For that is the issue? As a muslim is the way they are doing things in an Islamic way? If not then I question if they can do it. for we do what they did.
Muhammed does not feel insult as he didn't when people did it to him then, that's why when people did him an injustice he let it slide. Look at the history of how he was treated and his response to it.

Don't get me wrong. I think all religions do this idol or hero worshipping, not just Islam. People hero-worship Moses, David, Elijah, Jesus, the saints, etc. But in the case of Christianity with Jesus and the saints, and Islam with Muhammad, people can go to the extreme. Moses is THE most important prophet in Judaism, and yet the Jews don't treat Moses in the same fanaticism as do the Christians and Muslims do with their respective leaders.

So do you think Muslims don't treat Muhammad with the "reverence" akin to "hero-worship"?

Does not equating MUHAMMAD to ISLAM to be idol-worshipping?

I just do not understand how it is idol worship when Allah tells us to obey the messenger, to love him, to protect him and Islam, to obey the rules and regulations he mandated for us in Islam through the guidance of Allah. How if the Creator told us to do as he did that when we do it it is Idol worship when we are following a command from a God an idol cannot be constructed for. For we do not know what He looks like. I don't know that why your definition would help me understand the context of your meanings and statements.

 

[astarath]

To love and protect someone is far different than worship. To worship him woulld be to place him at the side of God. My understanding is that Islam see Muhammad as a messenger and thus a lesser to God and not deserving of any greater respect than your brother sitting next to you at mosque.

With Christians this is different as their worship of Christ is due to the belief that Christ is an incarnation of God and as such is worthy of praise.

 

[vandervalley]

To love and protect someone is far different than worship. To worship him woulld be to place him at the side of God. My understanding is that Islam see Muhammad as a messenger and thus a lesser to God and not deserving of any greater respect than your brother sitting next to you at mosque.

With Christians this is different as their worship of Christ is due to the belief that Christ is an incarnation of God and as such is worthy of praise.

Muslims treat the place where mohamed was supposed to have "ascended to heaven" as a "holy site" and built a golden domed mosque on it. This is a form of idol worshipping where a place is made "holy" because a person was associated with that place.

There are also plenty of relatives of mohamed who are still treated as "saints" today in the islamic world; this is a form of "name worshipping" which is no better than idol worshipping

 

[gnostic]

I just do not understand how it is idol worship when Allah tells us to obey the messenger, to love him, to protect him and Islam, to obey the rules and regulations he mandated for us in Islam through the guidance of Allah.

I understand that you are required to follow his teachings or whatever is taught in Islam.

I just don't see how (or why) in today's climate that your prophet would need protection. He has been obviously gone for centuries.

Hero worshipping? I do not understand, what is your definition of worship?

Look at the definition. If you don't understand then I will explain more.

Here is a definition from Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.

hero worship
1 : veneration of a hero
2 : foolish or excessive adulation for an individual

But I would suggest you look it up in your preferred dictionary.

Also look up veneration and adulation, and you will see that worship is not limited to a deity; it can a person, who inspires people.

Without a doubt, Muslims hero-worship Muhammad. Muhammad has become the symbol of Islam.

The centrepiece of your religion - the Qur'an - your scripture is an object that has become a symbol of Islam.

Mecca and Jerusalem are the two holiest cities for Islam, has also become symbols of Islam.

So what is a symbol?

Symbol can be image or object that represents a belief and the centre of reverence, then this symbol has becomes a idol.

Muhammad, Qur'an, Mecca and Jerusalem have become the symbols of Islam as much as Allah himself.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Dear Mujahid Mohammad,

I appreciate your detailed response and I studied it carefully and I am giving a detailed response. The essence of what I have to say and the disagreement between us, it appears, is:

1. Whether the Creator and created are one? My view is that if Islam maintains that the creator and creation are separate, it is only because the Quran has not made the connection between the creator and the created explicit. The connection, explicit in the teachings of Hinduism, is life itself. All creation is life, as Creator is life.

2. Whether Islam is an idol-worshipping religion? I maintain the very separation of Creator and created by Islam has led to the concomitant belief that there is somebody out there to be worshipped, making Islamic worship idol worship in nature because here worship needs an object to be worshiped in the form of Allah. Hinduism is obviously an idol worshiping religion. But it has as its core the understanding that we are what we worship and therefore at its highest stage drops all worship and seeks self-realization and because the focus is not external, but the internal subject itself, no idol worship is involved.

Now here is a detailed response to what you wrote. I have taken your sincere writing seriously and I thought I would do justice to it only if I reply in detail.

Allah says so for one. The other semetic religions as well.

You said, “Well if there is only one God, then there is only one way of looking at Him.” In reply to that I asked, “Who said so?” You say, “Allah says so for one”. If I ask you to prove, you would of course quote the Quran. Since Quran is the work of Allah through Mohammad, let me tell you that long before Mohammad, a work of Allah through Krishna, called the Bhagwad Geeta (it would be right to call it Allah Geeta, but the work is in Sanskrit and the Sanskrit word for Arabic Allah is Bhagwan) says that there are many ways to approach God. So could we be pitting Allah’s earlier word against his later word? Since Allah could not have made a mistake ever, it is upto us, the followers of Allah’s works of Quran, Bhagwad Geeta, Bible etc. to reconcile ‘differences’. If we are not able to, maybe we are not being philosophical enough.

Well if God is the Creator there can only be one because by Definition if the Creator is Eternal.

In other words, there cannot be two eternals and creation is not eternal. The question is, do we have in us that which is eternal? Islam, believing that the Creator and Created are separate, does not believe that we, the created, have the eternal within us. There are religions which believe that we have the eternal within us and what dies is only our transient body. That thing within us which is eternal is nothing other than life itself. Would you say that Allah has no life? If Allah has life, it has to be the same life that we have. Only, Allah enjoys eternal life. We don’t appear to because we identify our fate with the fate of our body. When we identify with the life within us, we would also enjoy eternal life. Life is life, whether in a mosquito, man or God. The nature of life is that it is eternal, all knowing and all bliss. The whole story of creation is how life manifests forms (matter), that is, how the eternal manifests as the transient, how the subtle became the coarse and yet ceased not to be eternal and subtle and ever alive. Even a stone is with life.

He was always there and never created.

I agree.

Created things have a beginning, and like all things with a beginning they have an end.

I agree.

And the end depends all upon what the Creator wants. Especially if He, Himself has control and power over all things.

The Creator/God/Life has no wants except to celebrate itself. There is no need for God to control anything.

if He, Allah is as most people define Him as then it is unrealistic and logical for somehting which has no beginning and something that has no end as being the same.

You say this because you miss the truth that the created also has something that is eternal and that is life itself.

something that is Free of All needs and something that relies on the creation of the Creator for survival are never and can never be the same. The Creator, Allah whose Knowledge and Strength are Infinite and never diminish cannot be the same as something whose knowledge and strength is limited to the measure of what the Creator gives.

Life was neither created nor will it be destroyed. Life is. God is.

How? when both are created by the creator

Agreed ocean, waves, dance, dancer are all created by God. But if you can see that the ocean and waves are one, though waves have an identity of its own briefly, it will give you a clue as to how man and God are one.

Look at mars they say at one point there was a ocean or water there. Same for certain regions on the earth. All things are created by Allah. They are given their existence and all the things dealing with it from Him.

Agreed.

We are not talking about the Quran we are talking about realistic concepts based on the how we define things. It is in the definition of the word.

Here you say that it is possible to “talk about realistic concepts based on how we define things”. But elsewhere your only argument is that “it is said in the Quran”.

Create: To bring something into existence, from the latin word creat which means bring forth.

True. But never from nothing.

everything we use in our daily lives was there and we did not cause it to exist. The earth and all the things and delicate balances that are needed in order for our existence.

I have no quarrel with the idea of God creating everything.

There are countless science and biology resources of information that expound about how if this particular thing was off, or temperature removed or if this did not happen at this moment, with this amount of energy then this and that could not exist.

Of course, everything is in harmony. There is an ancient Sanskrit word for harmony and that is Dharma.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Well if you say that the Creator and the creation are one, then yes you are saying that. What do you mean? Same in what? Essence? Strengh? Existence? Leave out all the other attributes. Lets just say Eternal Creator. Clearly as I said by the definition of the word the Creator is never and can never be the creation.

As I have said above, the Creator is none other than the life in us. The link between us and the truth about our life is our consciousness. Spirituality is all about refining our consciousness and this linking process in the ancient language of Sanskrit is called Yoga.

the Creator gives and puts His Will in the Creation. He gave it its spirit and life.

This seems to be near to what I am saying.

Everything we and the universe as a whole, do in whatever time we are given to exist and the manner by which we carry it out is given to us by Allah. We walk upright becasue Allah created us to. The fish swim with gills in water because he created them with those things that give them the ability to do it. They cannot change it. It is not judged by our own wisdom. can a human being create a brain. And give it all its abilitites. Can you yourself cause more time for you to live. Who controls that, who legislates it. Do these things in the cosmos or the universe have the knowledge to know the details to travel at this orbit at this rate in this place and we will not bump into each other. Do we decide what we will look like or what we will be or does it just happen like that . The Creator by definition created us and everything.

What you are saying here is how great Allah is. But this is not an observation that is unique to Islam. Much before Islam men have been glorifying God. However, men have also gone beyond glorifying, again before Islam, and discovered that we are that which we have been glorifying.

And He created it with a purpose, every part of every living being is there with a purpose. Your eyes, ear, legs, liver, lungs, heart all do what they do with a purpose. All to help in your existence. they were given to you as a human being in order so that you exist. Why? Why are these things given to us by the Creator and they have a purpose in keeping us alive. Is there something we are supposed to do? Do we ourselves have a purpose for existence.

Islam’s answer as to what man’s purpose is would be that man has been created to be a good slave of Allah. I do not hold that view. The inherent goal and purpose of individual human beings is to discover what life is all about and celebrate. This discovery is completed over many life-times. This is of course contrary to what Islam teaches. [Here I must make a distinction between Allah and Islam. Islam does not contain all knowledge that mankind has been privy too over the ages. Mankind’s knowledge ever grows, whereas Muslims have locked Islam in the Quran and have decided that not a word can be subtracted or added. Therefore Quran is a limited book. In most other religions, including Christianity, new interpretations make the religions versatile.

All the vital organs we got in a package we did not get them on a earn as you go program. If not we could not exist. Whatever you only got one of you can't make it without it. Why? Why are these things given to us with the purpose of keeping us alive? We are given them for this life so what are we to do with all these gifts. Gifts we ourselves cannot give to each other. Look how many people are waiting for organs. If we as the creation can create like the Creator everyone would have what they need. so ask yourself why do I have all these great things, all these fruits, people to interact with, things that we took from the Earth to make the things we use in our daily lives.

I think we need not belittle the capacity of humans. We are certainly much more than slaves.

No I say the one who gave the existence is the one can cause it not not exist because all the strength and ability to exist is created by Allah also and fashioned for us in order for us to exist. What if He decides to remove those things. Like the Buick cannot tell the manufacturer to disassemble him, or add certain features. It is made how it is made. Now to compare People and Buicks to Human beings and creation is a rather crude analogy for they do not compare for we are more complex but you get the point.

Whatever else Allah removes, he is not going to remove Himself from anywhere. But yes, in the game of creation, he hides Himself. Verily, creation is hidden Allah. Man’s goal is to discover the hidden Allah.

Only for those still alive. What about the one who it is over for. does it remain for them? And what happens exactly? Nothing?

Though we say so and so died, the truth is that is not a who that dies but a what that dies. Our body dies, but we never die.

Yeah is to unreasonable or something to ask where you got this stuff from. I accept anything as the truth from an individual if they present it.

Again, truly people of the BOOK. Why is it important to trace the source of whatever I said. Take it at face value. If they sound reasonable, accept it, otherwise reject it. I am no scholar or authority on any book. However, I must concede that most of what I said is common knowledge among the Hindus.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Like if someone gives me a book by Stephen King, it may be pretty easy to prove that he wrote it or this idea came from him. Again a crude comparison because as I said the creation cannot compare with the qualites and attributes of Allah, any good somewhat moral character we have comes from Him also. So a novel by Stephen King can never be compared to a book written by Allah. And they have to be looked at in light of the author. Now if you are talking about God, then God would surely have something to say on Himself and whatever He say is truth. All religious people generally say that about whatever God they worship. And who would know himself better then Allah, since none have seen him.

Allah’s book and Stephan King’s books both have their own value. Moreover, what is contained in the Quran is what has come out of the higher consciousness obtained by Mohammad during his periods of meditation, which started at Mount Herat. He ‘wrote’ the book over a period of 27 years, dictating to his companions and it was collated into a book by Caliph Othman after Mohammad passed away. Whatever, I have no quarrel with your claim that Allah wrote the Quran. Only I do not believe that the Quran is the last book that Allah wrote. Just as he wrote books before Quran, likewise he has written books, through those who have understood him, after Quran also. The scripture of the Sikh religion is a well-known example. Why should I think God stopped writing after the 6th century?

Oh, so did God speak to your or something, in a dream, a vision, manifestation or something? Or are these concepts and observations you have come up with? Either way please elaborate.

God speaks in a million ways and God speaks to everyone. Whatever I have come up with is my own work.

Really? But since He created you and everything you see. Don't you think at the bare minimum whether you believe he knows it all or not. The fact that He created all you know that exists is relevant especially if you wanting to know you you are all about as you say. who better to ask then the one who created you and everything that exists that supports your existence which He caused.

I have no need to test Allah as to whether he knows everything or not.

Like what? You said the information was coming from you.

The source of what I say is undoubtedly Hinduism. But it wouldn’t bother me if someone were to say that what I said is not Hinduism. Therefore what I say would stand or fall by its own logic.

Sure because they are not the same. for one there are no graven images in the masjid. So sacred statues of deities, or human beings. the only object of worship for us as muslims is the unseen God, Allah we do not know what He looks like hence we cannot construct an idol of him.

But there is a stone there. What is it doing in the middle of your most sacred place of worship? For an idol worshiper that is akin to the idol he has in the centre of his temple. If you say the idol has no significance in your worship, why have it in a place of prayer? Why not keep it in a museum for its worth? Just like a strand of hair from Mohammad’s beard is kept in a strong-room adjacent to a Mosque in Kashmir.

Allah is of course the unseen God, but not the unheard God. If you can hear Allah through the Quran, why did Mohammad grudge those who could see Allah through idols?

Allah who we cannot see told us to caste the stones, like the Messenger did before when he threw stones at the Devil. Allah said throw them so we throw them. do we worship the stones, pray to them ask them for forgiveness. Are they what we focus our worship on or they are the object of our it. Are the stones we throw telling us to throw them. Who is telling us to do this. How is Allah worshipped exactly with idol? since you say it cannot be without. What idols are you speaking of?

Casting stones at the Devil you can’t see? Can you deny that the rituals at Mecca during Hajj is worship? And in this worship you kiss the stone embedded in the cubic structure. So even if I concede that you do not worship anything except Allah, would I be unfair in calling your worship, at least during Hajj at Mecca, to be an idol-assisted worship?

Or Maybe you should clarify what an idol is to you and is it different then that of what the dictionary defines it as?

Personally, for me, an idol is a thing joyous to behold. However, I do not perform any ‘worship’ of God, much less idol-worship of God. But I understand the idol-worshippers’ view and they believe God is present in idols. I also know there is no idol-worshipper who believes that God is present only in the idols and nowhere else. In fact, all idol-worshippers believe that God is present everywhere. Therefore idols are for idol-worshippers the form God has taken for the idol-worshippers to relate to God. Islam, in any case, is not free from idol worship because the very fact that Islam believes that the Creator and the created are separate with no commonality makes every worship of Muslims an idol worship because the worshipper considers the worshiped outside of him, and therefore an object, just as Hindu idol worshippers do. But in Hinduism, idol worship is a stage in the progress to realizing that the worshipper is the worshipped.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Looks like the OPer is woefully ignorant of the Sufi way. Oh well. I see the OP's pushing of Hinduism... that seems to be the point of this thread, Islam added as an afterthought.

I missed this comment earlier. I am late in realising OPer means me in this thread. I am aware of the Sufi way. Sufism is core Hinduism (the Vedantic vision) applied in Persian and Arabic cultures. I suspect Sufism existed even before Islam and coalesced with Islam to survive unhurt. Al Hillaj Mansoor was killed when he said "Ane Al Haq" or "I am the Truth", which in Islam is tantamount to claiming himself to be God. This is similar to "Aham Brahmasmi" or "I am God" of Hinduism.