Isn’t the concept of free will and praying to God for intervention contradictory concepts?

[QuestioningMind]

I remember asking the minister during bible study class why God had not intervened to stop Hitler from slaughtering millions of innocent people in death camps during WWII. The answer was that God had given human beings free will and that He could not intervene to prevent people from exercising that free will. Yet, several months later when the daughter of members of the church was kidnapped, the minister asked everyone to pray to God for the little girl’s safe return.



How does that make any sense? If God could intervene and somehow prevent the kidnapper from doing the little girl harm, then what prevented God from giving Hitler a fatal heart attack after he murdered the first million innocents in his death camps? If on the other hand God has tied His own hands and must allow the kidnapper to exercise his free will, then apparently the kidnapper is going to do whatever his free will prompts him to do, regardless of how hard anyone prays to God.


It seems to me that you can’t have it both ways.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Wow. That's a nice question. I'd assume those who are praying for intervention are really having faith (hoping) that God has it already in His plans to intervene or not. Maybe a lot of prayers are hopes.

I remember asking the minister during bible study class why God had not intervened to stop Hitler from slaughtering millions of innocent people in death camps during WWII. The answer was that God had given human beings free will and that He could not intervene to prevent people from exercising that free will. Yet, several months later when the daughter of members of the church was kidnapped, the minister asked everyone to pray to God for the little girl’s safe return.



How does that make any sense? If God could intervene and somehow prevent the kidnapper from doing the little girl harm, then what prevented God from giving Hitler a fatal heart attack after he murdered the first million innocents in his death camps? If on the other hand God has tied His own hands and must allow the kidnapper to exercise his free will, then apparently the kidnapper is going to do whatever his free will prompts him to do, regardless of how hard anyone prays to God.


It seems to me that you can’t have it both ways.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

I remember asking the minister during bible study class why God had not intervened to stop Hitler from slaughtering millions of innocent people in death camps during WWII. The answer was that God had given human beings free will and that He could not intervene to prevent people from exercising that free will. Yet, several months later when the daughter of members of the church was kidnapped, the minister asked everyone to pray to God for the little girl’s safe return.



How does that make any sense? If God could intervene and somehow prevent the kidnapper from doing the little girl harm, then what prevented God from giving Hitler a fatal heart attack after he murdered the first million innocents in his death camps? If on the other hand God has tied His own hands and must allow the kidnapper to exercise his free will, then apparently the kidnapper is going to do whatever his free will prompts him to do, regardless of how hard anyone prays to God.


It seems to me that you can’t have it both ways.

I don't believe God couldn't have intervened in Hitler's slaughter because of free will. It can be challenging to grasp but I believe God ordains all, and therefore when we come to Him with a plea we can have confidence that He is more than able. If it is God's will then He will answer us accordingly, and we can have trust that whatever He has decided is for the Christian's good. I believe man's choice and God's will co-exists. Why did God allow someone like Hitler to do what he did? I am not God, of course I cannot say exactly, but death entered the world through Adam and we still suffer the consequences of his and our own sin that we commit against God. The world is not meant to be perfect as it is, it is still a fallen world. So why doesn't God just step in and change the world? He already did in the person of Jesus Christ, dying on the cross and winning our freedom from slavery to sin, paying the debt from our sin. The perfect world will come but it is all in God's perfect time and God's perfect plan, which is for the good of those who love Him.

When Joseph was thrown in a ditch by his brothers, Joseph tells them that they meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. Human choice really exists, though what men may intend for evil, God ultimately ordains and purposes for good.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Of course it contradicts but that is what religions are in the first place. You shouldn't expose logic to the religious though as it is usually dangerous.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I don't believe God couldn't have intervened in Hitler's slaughter because of free will. It can be challenging to grasp but I believe God ordains all, and therefore when we come to Him with a plea we can have confidence that He is more than able. If it is God's will then He will answer us accordingly, and we can have trust that whatever He has decided is for the Christian's good. I believe man's choice and God's will co-exists. Why did God allow someone like Hitler to do what he did? I am not God, of course I cannot say exactly, but death entered the world through Adam and we still suffer the consequences of his and our own sin that we commit against God. The world is not meant to be perfect as it is, it is still a fallen world. So why doesn't God just step in and change the world? He already did in the person of Jesus Christ, dying on the cross and winning our freedom from slavery to sin, paying the debt from our sin. The perfect world will come but it is all in God's perfect time and God's perfect plan, which is for the good of those who love Him.

When Joseph was thrown in a ditch by his brothers, Joseph tells them that they meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. Human choice really exists, though what men may intend for evil, God ultimately ordains and purposes for good.

So are you suggesting that God wanted 6+ million people to be exterminated in death camps during WWII? It would also seem that you're saying that prayer is a waist of time, since God is going to do whatever fits in with His plan, regardless.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I was always under the impression that freewill is primarily the freedom to choose to walk with God, or to not rather than choice of events.

You're right though, it makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

So are you suggesting that God wanted 6+ million people to be exterminated in death camps during WWII?

God permitted it to happen, for His better purpose. Morally it was horrific, no doubt, but God purposes all things for His glory and the good of those who love Him.

It would also seem that you're saying that prayer is a waist of time, since God is going to do whatever fits in with His plan, regardless.

Not at all. As I said, human choice and God's will co-exists. God is our Father, we come to Him with our problems and worries and struggles. Prayer isn't all about asking for things, though we do that as well. A petitioning prayer can still work though. Even though God's act was ultimately fore-ordained, it can still have been a response to a believer's prayer, and if the believer never prayed it may never have happened, though all is fore-ordained by God. The believer's prayer itself is a part of God's plan, yet it was still the believer's choice to pray. We have a relationship with God and so we pray to Him, prayer often helps us a lot too, getting right with God, spending time with Him and asking for His wisdom. Prayer helps us to submit to God's will, where in humility we trust God's wisdom and believe His ways are higher and better than our own, and are for the good of His people.

 

[QuestioningMind]

God permitted it to happen, for His better purpose. Morally it was horrific, no doubt, but God purposes all things for His glory and the good of those who love Him.

Wow... that's kind of a scary thought. What sort of a god would be glorified by the senseless deaths of millions of innocent people?

Not at all. As I said, human choice and God's will co-exists. God is our Father, we come to Him with our problems and worries and struggles. Prayer isn't all about asking for things, though we do that as well. A petitioning prayer can still work though. Even though God's act was ultimately fore-ordained, it can still have been a response to a believer's prayer, and if the believer never prayed it may never have happened, though all is fore-ordained by God. The believer's prayer itself is a part of God's plan, yet it was still the believer's choice to pray. We have a relationship with God and so we pray to Him, prayer often helps us a lot too, getting right with God, spending time with Him and asking for His wisdom. Prayer helps us to submit to God's will, where in humility we trust God's wisdom and believe His ways are higher and better than our own, and are for the good of His people.

How exactly can something that is fore-ordained 'change' depending upon an individual's act of free will?

 

[Glaurung]

I remember asking the minister during bible study class why God had not intervened to stop Hitler from slaughtering millions of innocent people in death camps during WWII. The answer was that God had given human beings free will and that He could not intervene to prevent people from exercising that free will. Yet, several months later when the daughter of members of the church was kidnapped, the minister asked everyone to pray to God for the little girl’s safe return.

I hold that God possesses foreknowledge of our choices, yet none of our choices were ordained by him to happen. Rather, because of his foreknowledge, his ordained plan has already taken our choices into account. God's plan is irresistible, but our choices which that plan takes into account were of our own total freedom. Thus it is us, and not God, that hold all responsibility for sin.

God already knows our prayers, and answers them according to his will.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

How exactly can something that is fore-ordained 'change' depending upon an individual's act of free will?

It doesn't change. What is fore-ordained remains fore-ordained, though that does not change the fact that we have also willed the particular event.

 

[JayJayDee]

So are you suggesting that God wanted 6+ million people to be exterminated in death camps during WWII? It would also seem that you're saying that prayer is a waist of time, since God is going to do whatever fits in with His plan, regardless.

Understanding why God has not intervened in the atrocities perpetrated on the world by wicked men escapes Christendom's churches for the most part.
Even when the Pope was asked by a 12 year old why God allows terrible things happen to children, he could not give her an answer.

It has to do with who is the legitimate ruler of mankind...God or the devil?
Satan basically accused God of being a heartless dictator who kept things from his children that they had a right to have.
So instead of dealing with the devil directly by punishing him for his rebellion, he used him to test out all of his children both in heaven and on earth. Angels have free will too.
God has allowed the devil to rule the world with very little restriction. Why? The account in Job tells us. (Read Job 1 & 2)

The devil claimed that humans only served God for selfish reasons; that God's blessing was the only thing that Job was interested in and that if he was permitted to take away everything he valued, that he would curse God and leave him. God knew the faith of this man and had confidence in his ability to withstand such a difficult test. He permitted the devil to take all he had, including his 10 children, but he was not permitted to touch the man physically.
Job passed the test with flying colors. Despite the enormous losses he suffered, Job did not curse God nor did he leave him. His faith stayed intact.

Not content, the devil demanded another test, this time to take the man to the edge of death. So God permitted the devil to afflict Job physically this time but he was not allowed to take his life.
Despite enormous pain, Job remained faithful and did not curse God or leave him. Even when his wife told him to "curse God and die" he rebuked her, but I'm sure he understood that his losses and suffering were hers too and yet she was not the target.

Still retaining his faith, the very ill Job was visited by three so called comforters who accused him of sinning against God and being punished for it. He knew he hadn't and in his weakened state tried to defend himself. All the while Job did not know that his suffering was brought on him by satan, yet he did not waver even when he thought it might have come from God. (Job 2:9, 10)

The account of Job is in the scriptures for a very good reason. In the testing of Job, the devil implicated all mankind in his accusations. He said "everything a man has he will give in exchange for his life" He didn't say "everything Job has" but "everything a man has", meaning all of us.

Rulership of this world was handed over to the devil for two reasons.
1) To show us what rulership without God would result in. (We are not designed to rule ourselves. Jer 10:23)
2) So that humans could prove to the devil that they will serve God unselfishly, no matter what hardships he brings on them.

The devil has used every tactic in the book to get humans to curse God and leave him. He has succeeded with many.

All the atrocities committed down through history have been perpetrated by men under influence from God's adversary. He can give ruling power to whomever he wants. (Luke 4:5, 6)

So God will not interfere with the devil's reign until he brings the rulership of his kingdom to this earth, having tested mankind and proven that the devil could not turn all humans against him. This is why Jesus taught us to pray for God's kingdom to "come" and for his "will to be done on earth as it is in heaven".

The end of Job's story is the really good part....it is also pictorial of our own future if we remain faithful.

"As for Jehovah, he blessed the end of Job afterward more than his beginning, so that he came to have fourteen thousand sheep and six thousand camels and a thousand spans of cattle and a thousand she-asses. 13 He also came to have seven sons and three daughters. .....And no women were found as pretty as Job’s daughters in all the land, and their father proceeded to give them an inheritance in among their brothers. 16 And Job continued living after this a hundred and forty years and came to see his sons and his grandsons—four generations. 17 And gradually Job died, old and satisfied with days." (Job 42:12-17)

No matter what we suffer, God can not only strengthen us to endure the trial, but He can reverse it and even erase the bad memories. He promised in Isaiah 65:17, 18.....

“For here I am creating new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart. 18 But exult, you people, and be joyful forever in what I am creating."

It will be worth all the effort to gain the smile of approval from the God who had enough faith in us to allow the devil to do his best to get us to leave him.
I'm not letting the devil win...what about you?

 

[LuisDantas]

It seems to me that you can’t have it both ways.

I agree. For a while now I have felt that Free Will is not a concept that can ever truly make sense. Most people who believe in it can't really define it, at least not in a way that is both realistic and meaningful.

The sole reason why it even exists seems to be because it is sometimes useful to attempt to explain how a supposedly all-powerful, supremely good God does not act as such. Apparently the underlying (and far as I can tell, necessary) premise is that human beings are so darned egotistical that they somehow choose to limit God's power out of confort or perceived convenience. It seems to have some sort of connection to pride.

As a concept, it is utterly insane and unrealistic. But attempting to use it, one would have as a consequence (as logical of one as the concept may sustain) that a properly humble person could conceivably renounce his own free will to the extent of enabling a local miracle or somesuch.

One of the weakest points in the whole of the Abrahamic Faiths, IMO.

 

[Glaurung]

I agree. For a while now I have felt that Free Will is not a concept that can ever truly make sense. Most people who believe in it can't really define it, at least not in a way that is both realistic and meaningful.

It's really quite easy, a free choice is simply a choice which is not predetermined. With the exception of the Reformed school of thought, all Christians mean by free will is that God does not predetermine our actions, although he does foreknow them as per his omniscience and non-temporal nature.

What is so flipping complicated?

 

[LuisDantas]

It's really quite easy, a free choice is simply a choice which is not predetermined. With the exception of the Reformed school of thought, all Christians mean by free will is that God does not predetermine our actions, although he does foreknow them as per his omniscience and non-temporal nature.

What is so flipping complicated?

Taking your description of free will as a starting point, one thing that is complicated is to explain is what difference, if any, there is in practice between foreknowledge and predetermination.

Another is to determine whether it is even possible to know if God has foreknowledge. How could anyone tell?

Paradoxically enough, there is also the matter of whether someone who has complete foreknowledge can be said to have any power at all. At least in the first glance it is rather the complete absence of even very humble levels of human power.

How one can claim that God is supremely powerful if he is also presented as powerless to attempt to influence our actions and decisions (while, obviously, it is within human power to at least sometimes exert such influence)?

It is often quite surprising that the concept of free will exists at all.

 

[Glaurung]

Taking your description of free will as a starting point, one thing that is complicated is to explain is what difference, if any, there is in practice between foreknowledge and predetermination.

Foreknowledge is simply the fact that God knows what is going to happen because he is not subject to seeing things in a strict temporal sequence. He knows what we will freely do, and we are free because he never compelled any of our actions to happen.

Predetermination is the idea of God actively deciding what will happen including all human decisions. Humans have no freedom in this system. Although some Calvinists play word games in this area.

God has a predetermined plan, but the main contention between Christians is whether or not this plan predetermines human action. As a Catholic, I reject that it does.

Another is to determine whether it is even possible to know if God has foreknowledge. How could anyone tell?

We believe God to be both omniscient and non-temporal. The logical consequence is that he has perfect foreknowledge of the future.

How one can claim that God is supremely powerful if he is also presented as powerless to attempt to influence our actions and decisions (while, obviously, it is within human power to at least sometimes exert such influence)?

He could control us like total robots and prevent all evil if he so chose, he chooses not to because his plan allows him our freedom and the permission of evil so long as he will infallibly bring about our own greatest good for his glory. We and all reality are powerless to even exist were it not God so willing it.

It is often quite surprising that the concept of free will exists at all.

No, it just conflicts with your own ideological doctrines and rather weak objections to the faith.

 

[LuisDantas]

Foreknowledge is simply the fact that God knows what is going to happen because he is not subject to seeing things in a strict temporal sequence. He knows what we will freely do, and we are free because he never compelled any of our actions to happen.

Predetermination is the idea of God actively deciding what will happen including all human decisions. Humans have no freedom in this system. Although some Calvinists play word games in this area.

God has a predetermined plan, but the main contention between Christians is whether or not this plan predetermines human action. As a Catholic, I reject that it does.

And yet, it remains entirely a matter of faith, because there is really no way to tell, no way of testing that belief in a meaningful way.

We believe God to be both omniscient and non-temporal. The logical consequence is that he has perfect foreknowledge of the future.

Again, that amounts to saying that you can't tell at all, but want to believe that it is so nevertheless.

He could control us like total robots and prevent all evil if he so chose, he chooses not to because his plan allows him our freedom and the permission of evil so long as he will infallibly bring about our own greatest good for his glory. We and all reality are powerless to even exist were it not God so willing it.

That whole scenario is wildly speculative, though. And that is when it is not outright at odds with observable facts, which is most of the time.

No, it just conflicts with your own ideological doctrines and rather weak objections to the faith.

Weak they may be, but they can't be challenged by the faith itself. What does that say?

 

[Glaurung]

nd yet, it remains entirely a matter of faith, because there is really no way to tell, no way of testing that belief in a meaningful way.

Obviously when discussing Christian theology, we assume Christianity for the sake of the discussion.

Weak they may be, but they can't be challenged by the faith itself. What does that say?

Nothing. Your 'knock-out' objections have answers, whatever you may think of those answers is irrelevant. If you're already hellbent on the falsity of Christianity then there's really nothing that will satisfy you.

It's just that no matter how much you assert that it's just all so incoherent, won't change my assertion that you're wrong.

 

[PennyKay]

I suppose people use their free-will to pray to God, hoping for a reaction/answers from their God, (which I'm aware isn't very logical, if God has a plan, why pray to God to change it?).

However my problem is; if you truly believed in a good God, surely you would have the faith that regardless of what personal/global event you are praying to God to be changed, God has a plan, and thus, all will be right in the end. So it begs the question:

If God has a plan, and if God is all knowing and all loving - surely all problems in the world are fore-planned, they have a purpose, and you should get on with your own business (maybe dare I say, instead of praying to God to change events, getting up off your knees and doing something about it yourself!)?



*I would like to clarify that I do not believe in any God, and I do not believe that any superior entity has a plan over my personal existence, nor over the universe and any life within it. The whole concept of praying to me is confusing and absurd and an insult to any theists intelligence if they truly believe that clasping their hands in prayer, is more helpful than using those same two hands to help somebody in need. If you see a world where you want to resort to getting down on your knees and clasping your hands to speak to a concept residing nowhere but in your head in a vain attempt to change it - maybe it isn't a good God that created it, and watches over it?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Obviously when discussing Christian theology, we assume Christianity for the sake of the discussion.

This. I can't count the number of times when trying to explain a point of theology, the other person will then say "Yeah well we have no proof for any of this." Wait what, I thought you were trying to challenge the internal consistency in the first place?

 

[QuestioningMind]

It doesn't change. What is fore-ordained remains fore-ordained, though that does not change the fact that we have also willed the particular event.

Huh????? You claim that something may or may not happen depending upon whether or not someone prays for it to happen. Yet if this individuals actions have already been fore-ordained, then the individual actually had no choice to begin with. You can't have it both ways.