Islamaphobia - Years later, I accept its a real/true phenomena and an industry

[QuestioningMind]

Brother. If you read the DSM 3 by the American psychiatric association one of the diagnostics of a phobia was to identify that the patient in concern does not the fear is irrational but still has that irrational fear. Thats a severe state of reaction. Again, psychology is not my field but I just read up on this matter a lot just for the purpose of understanding this topic. For example a
somatic symptomatology can occur where the state is irrational while the patient knows its irrational. Thats why I did not agree with the word Islamaphobia. But later psychiatrists changed the diagnosis in order to combat phobic reactions. Most of the phobic reactions are the patients try to avoid the situations they fear but in a case like Islamaphobia the patients like to read more about things that affirm their phobia. Do you understand? Thus there is clearly a divide in the diagnosis. These are reasons for me to negate this word Islamaphobia for a long long time. Now if you read up on Obsessive Compulsive Reactions the patient knows his reactions are irrational but he can't help it. Psychasthenia.

Anyway I respect your input and I doubt holding onto this minute point is of any significance.

The one and only point I was attempting to make is that the person with an irrational fear or a phobia does not have to recognize that their fear is irrational in order for it to be a phobia.

 

[icehorse]

There are some people who are eternally hellbent on derailing any thread to discuss their favourite irrelevant topic.

Are you referring to whoever started this thread on "Islamophobia" ?

 

[danieldemol]

But there is a phrase here that many people misunderstand that says “or who has not committed corruption in the land” which is open for interpretation. The Arabic phrase “Al Fasadhu Fil Ardh (الفساد في الأرض)”, or corruption in the land has a definition which a lot of people have ignored. This maybe the boring part for the reader, but this also maybe a piercer of faith to the fanatic. Read further.

So says the Quran in chapter 27, verses 48 to 50, - “And in the city were nine ruffians who were causing corruption in the land, and they were not reforming. They said: “Swear by God to one another that we will attack him and his family at night, …... “

Notice that it says “Swear by God”. This is what the Quran is saying by the phrase “Spreading corruption in the land”. These are the people the verse 5:32 above is speaking about and they are very clearly explained.

So it should be evident, that their claim of murdering innocents shouting ‘Allahu Akbar’, calls for Gods wrath on them, and the penalty is nothing but death.

The problem is that Muslims themselves are not agreed that spreading corruption in the land is solely a reference to murder in God’s name.

Also I’m not seeing where it says any words to the effect of, “and the definition of corruption in the land is as follows”. Instead the Quran simply appears to be giving one example of spreading corruption in the land, leaving other examples either to the hadith or the imagination/interpretation of those in power.

If this is as it appears to be then the nonbeliever sees the defect in a book alleged to be perfect.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Perhaps you could make a new thread to enlighten us on this terrible genocide against you, and your experience of being victimized by two of your neighbours?

Did I say genocide? But yes, Most of the population of Pakistan and Bangladesh are converted Hindus.

 

[Aupmanyav]

And during partition, Hindus and Muslims slaughtered each other with great zeal. Hate and bigotry are not limited.

Newton's Second Law of Dynamics: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

 

[firedragon]

The one and only point I was attempting to make is that the person with an irrational fear or a phobia does not have to recognize that their fear is irrational in order for it to be a phobia.

Well, I was trying my best to show you that was not quite right.

 

[firedragon]

The problem is that Muslims themselves are not agreed that spreading corruption in the land is solely a reference to murder in God’s name.

Again, Ad Populum.

Also I’m not seeing where it says any words to the effect of, “and the definition of corruption in the land is as follows”. Instead the Quran simply appears to be giving one example of spreading corruption in the land, leaving other examples either to the hadith or the imagination/interpretation of those in power.

If you have any other examples in the Quran please do let me know.

If this is as it appears to be then the nonbeliever sees the defect in a book alleged to be perfect.

Irrelevant.

 

[firedragon]

Newton's Second Law of Dynamics: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

You are again and again attempting to demonise Islam by a large and generalised brush. I have seen Muslims do that too against the Hindu's and since I know many Hindus form India, including some teachers, colleagues, fellow, I obviously fight against bigotry against Hindus.

Its not relevant and is going to be a "my people vs your people" discussion. Its useless and is often racist. I know you are not racist brother, don't misunderstand me but this discussion of "your people vs mine" is often racist. That is why I try not to speak about numbers and who did what. I understand that you may have the pain of your people and I empathise with you. But that is not relevant to this thread and it will bring in a whole other discussion of all kinds of murders and killings etc from around the world. Any discussion should not be anecdotal, but it should comprise of historical analysis of thousands of years spanning the whole world.

Cheers.

 

[oldbadger]

@firedragon .... well, you're six pages in to your thread and even though you were shown (within a few posts) that a lot of English speaking people use the word 'phobia' in connection with the word 'extreme' you have clung desperately to the description 'irrational'.

Without it you would have been wasting your time in waffle so I guess it's understandable that you need to do this.

But where I live (England) we have to be much more accurate about how we approach Islamophobia than you because we live in a cosmopolitan country where this has developed because of incidents which we have experienced over recent decades.

It;'s very easy for phobias to get started, and in order to reduce, deter and subdue them we have to find out exactly what people are thinking, and why, and where .... then we can respond as best we can to reduce phobias and responses caused by them.

Some phobias are irrational (here) such as the responses of a few idiots towards Chinese people living here because some politician or other insisted upon blaming the people of Wuhan, China, for the coronavirus sickness..... we have heard that Chinese shops have been vandalised because of such talk.
There, we need to respond to fake news in order to reduce irrational fears....... that example should be more fitting to your thread, really.

....but in the case of Islamophobia the fears of some people have been raised by real incidents that really happened. So you need to buy the Oxford Dictionary, read it, and take notice of it. OK?

 

[Aupmanyav]

You are again and again attempting to demonise Islam by a large and generalised brush. I have seen Muslims do that too against the Hindu's and since I know many Hindus form India, including some teachers, colleagues, fellow, I obviously fight against bigotry against Hindus.

I am not all that good, Firedragon, I have general Hindu susceptibilities. I was replying to sunrise' post. If Hindus were killed in areas of Pakistan and Bengal, it would not go without any reaction in other part of India. But still 170 million Muslims could stay back in India speaks for the general accepting nature of Hindus. They were not ethnically cleansed as it was done by Muslims in Kashmir valley. Many politicians, including Gandhi and Nehru, spoke for Muslims. But surely, none of this is appropriate for this topic. My 400 million loss of Hindus means that if they were not converted (mostly by force), then the Hindu numbers would have been more. But it does not matter. A billion is not a bad number.

 

[danieldemol]

Again, Ad Populum.

It’s not ad Populum, I don’t agree that something is true just because Muslims believe it.
Thus I am not saying that spreading corruption in the land is reference to other things that Muslims apply it to..

But I would say that because faithful Muslims have interpreted other things as spreading corruption in the land we should be wary of such a vague wording being placed in public legislature.

I wouldn’t oppose a law preventing murder, but that could be worded as prevention of murder without recourse to vague words like corruption in the land.

If you have any other examples in the Quran please do let me know.

That would be a great argument if every Muslim was a Quranist. But there is more than one Islam, so it is not.

 

[Tambourine]

Did I say genocide? But yes, Most of the population of Pakistan and Bangladesh are converted Hindus.

You claimed that India "lost" hundreds of millions of people. That would imply that these people either do not live in India, or are not alive at all, correct?

 

[firedragon]

But where I live (England) we have to be much more accurate about how we approach Islamophobia than you because we live in a cosmopolitan country where this has developed because of incidents which we have experienced over recent decades.

Where do you think I live mate?

 

[firedragon]

That would be a great argument if every Muslim was a Quranist. But there is more than one Islam, so it is not.

So that's the genetic fallacy.

 

[firedragon]

....but in the case of Islamophobia the fears of some people have been raised by real incidents that really happened. So you need to buy the Oxford Dictionary, read it, and take notice of it. OK?

Of course real events happened. The Islamaphobia industry exists partially because of that and others use this to sell their books and get votes. Thats the point.

Nah. Dictionaries are not good enough. Its alright, but not good enough. If you want to read more in-depth, read DSM by the American Psychiatric Society. Or some other good analysis.

 

[firedragon]

I wouldn’t oppose a law preventing murder, but that could be worded as prevention of murder without recourse to vague words like corruption in the land.

Lets say a country has a term called "sex offender". What does it mean? because everyone is used to this term so much in the English language you will immediately relate this to a rapist or a statutory rape offender as stipulated by the offenders typology. The phrase will have certain baggage that comes with it. Because you are looking at a phrase "corruption in the land" as a phrase, a simple sentence that just means a vague accusation you cannot make that association. That is why one has to look at all the occurrences of this phrase in the Qur'an and see what it entails in order to make an assessment.

Yes. I have done that. Thus, rather than superficially dismissing something, please do your own analysis if you like. The phrase is "AL Fasadhin Fil Ardha". Find out where it occurs and find out what and whom it is referring to.

Cheers.

 

[danieldemol]

So that's the genetic fallacy.

You got me looking up fallacies now.

From Wikipedia
‘The genetic fallacy (also known as the fallacy of origins or fallacy of virtue)[1] is a fallacy of irrelevance that is based solely on someone's or something's history, origin, or source rather than its current meaning or context. This overlooks any difference to be found in the present situation, typically transferring the positive or negative esteem from the earlier context. In other words, a claim is ignored in favor of attacking or championing its source.’

To be honest I’m not sure how it applies to what I said.

I wasn’t saying your argument was wrong because it originated with Quranists.

Essentially I was saying that not all Muslims derive their law solely from the Quran, so not all examples of corruption on Earth have to come from the Quran to be a part of “Islam” given that there are other Islams which derive their law from other sources.

 

[firedragon]

You got me looking up fallacies now.

From Wikipedia
‘The genetic fallacy (also known as the fallacy of origins or fallacy of virtue)[1] is a fallacy of irrelevance that is based solely on someone's or something's history, origin, or source rather than its current meaning or context. This overlooks any difference to be found in the present situation, typically transferring the positive or negative esteem from the earlier context. In other words, a claim is ignored in favor of attacking or championing its source.’

To be honest I’m not sure how it applies to what I said.

I wasn’t saying your argument was wrong because it originated with Quranists.

Essentially I was saying that not all Muslims derive their law solely from the Quran, so not all examples of corruption on Earth have to come from the Quran to be a part of “Islam” given that there are other Islams which derive their law from other sources.

Basically you will not analyse but just say "people think this and that". You are talking simply about "where. it comes from".

Also you are wrong. This does not come from the Quranists, it comes from age old scholarship of many. The allusion is there in Ibn Hajar Al Asqalani's Tahdhib atthahdhib. That is if you are dismissing based on where it comes from not the analysis of the argument which is the definition of the genetic fallacy. Thats what you are doing mate, the source is more important to you than the analysis. Thats a logical fallacy. Then you refer to "Most Muslims" which is another logical fallacy. If a Buddhist presents his personal view on a doctrine there is no point in talking about where it comes from. ITs only prudent to analyse the information given. When a Bible scholar invents a form of form criticism of the Old Testament there are some who speaks just like you. Where it comes from, others dont agree, etc etc. Its a fallacy. Rather explore what the data says.

rather, analyse the data presented or go beyond and analyse even more extensively.

Cheers.

 

[danieldemol]

That is why one has to look at all the occurrences of this phrase in the Qur'an and see what it entails in order to make an assessment.

I would argue that in the context of Islamophobia we would have to look at all occurrences of this and similar phrase such as Mofsed-e-filarz 1 in the entire Islamic world and see what it entails, not just the Quran.

Looking at just the Quran might tell us what a Quranist society might theoretically look like, but it would not for example tell us what a Shia society would look like.

1 http://iranpresswatch.org/post/2737/

 

[Aupmanyav]

You claimed that India "lost" hundreds of millions of people. That would imply that these people either do not live in India, or are not alive at all, correct?

No, that was not what I meant.