Islam, Science & Common Sense

[Gharib]

Which is my point.
The Koran has no scientific REVELATION.

the quran isn't a discovery book, you cannot show it on a discovery tv channel.it is a law.

 

[McBell]

the quran isn't a discovery book, you cannot show it on a discovery tv channel.it is a law.

What does that have to do with the price of beans in China?

Are you serious?
Is it really against the law to have the Koran on the Discovery Channel?
I wonder why...

 

[Gharib]

What does that have to do with the price of beans in China?

you tell me. what does any of this have to do with the price of beans in china?

Are you serious?

yes, the quran isn't a discovery book, it is a law. it guides people.

heres what Allah says;

Al-Baqara
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
​

Alif Lam Mim. (1)
This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah. (2)
Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them. (3)
And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter. (4)
They are on (true guidance), from their Lord and it is these who will prosper. (5)
As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe. (6)

let me just summerise here for you:

#5 says "they are on the true guidance and it is those who will prosper", so who exactly will prosper?

A) those who fear Allah, because they have come to understand that there is guidance in the Quran.
B) those who beleive in the unseen,are stead fast in prayer, and give charity (zakat)
C) those who beleive in the quran, and what was sent down before the quran (meaning the 3 other holy books Zeboor,Tewrat, Injeel.) and those who beleive that this world will soon end and everything will return back to Allah.
D) and ofcourse verse #6​

Is it really against the law to have the Koran on the Discovery Channel?

this what you have been doing through out the thread, someone says "a" you change it to "b". no it isn't agaist law. tell me where did i say that it is?

I wonder why...

exactly, thats what people do when they do not understand, they only wonder. is there truly another option? i don't think so.

 

[Storm]

this what you have been doing through out the thread, someone says "a" you change it to "b". no it isn't agaist law. tell me where did i say that it is?

Right here:

the quran isn't a discovery book, you cannot show it on a discovery tv channel.it is a law.

 

[Gharib]

Right here:

OMG, can i ask something, not to you in particular but to most of RF memebrs, do i always need to iclude even the stupid "commas" in every sentence that i right?

so far 2 peole didn't get that statment, lets see how many others will not be able to understand it, so in the mean time lets just "wonder".

i said it is not a discovery book, so it does not need to be shown on a dicscovery chanell. it doesn't show any bone traces in it's pages, it doesn't have any dead fossils in its pages, etc, etc,etc........ it is a law of guidance. every once in a while someone will always do this to me, and i always end up explaining my statements like i'm talking to a 4 year old, just as i am doing now.

i don't mean to be offencive or rude in any way, but i'm just doing the explanation thing again.

 

[McBell]

you tell me. what does any of this have to do with the price of beans in china?



yes, the quran isn't a discovery book, it is a law. it guides people.

heres what Allah says;

Al-Baqara
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
​

Alif Lam Mim. (1)
This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah. (2)
Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them. (3)
And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter. (4)
They are on (true guidance), from their Lord and it is these who will prosper. (5)
As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe. (6)

let me just summerise here for you:

#5 says "they are on the true guidance and it is those who will prosper", so who exactly will prosper?

A) those who fear Allah, because they have come to understand that there is guidance in the Quran.
B) those who beleive in the unseen,are stead fast in prayer, and give charity (zakat)
C) those who beleive in the quran, and what was sent down before the quran (meaning the 3 other holy books Zeboor,Tewrat, Injeel.) and those who beleive that this world will soon end and everything will return back to Allah.
D) and ofcourse verse #6​

this what you have been doing through out the thread, someone says "a" you change it to "b". no it isn't agaist law. tell me where did i say that it is?



exactly, thats what people do when they do not understand, they only wonder. is there truly another option? i don't think so.

You truly are lost in your own little world.

 

[Storm]

OMG, can i ask something, not to you in particular but to most of RF memebrs, do i always need to iclude even the stupid "commas" in every sentence that i right?

so far 2 peole didn't get that statment, lets see how many others will not be able to understand it, so in the mean time lets just "wonder".

i said it is not a discovery book, so it does not need to be shown on a dicscovery chanell. it doesn't show any bone traces in it's pages, it doesn't have any dead fossils in its pages, etc, etc,etc........ it is a law of guidance.

No, that's not what you said. Maybe it's what you meant, but it's not what you said.

every once in a while someone will always do this to me, and i always end up explaining my statements like i'm talking to a 4 year old, just as i am doing now.

i don't mean to be offencive or rude in any way, but i'm just doing the explanation thing again.

Gee, have you ever considered that maybe the problem lies in your communication skills? I mean English obviously isn't your first language, so maybe you should take a little care with it and be sure you're actually saying what you mean. Also, if you don't want to be rude, whining about how we're no better than 4-year-olds is a bad tactic.

 

[kai]

Why do you assume i am not interested in actual historical research?

So from my understanding you are saying that the Qur'anic scientific facts (vague or not) were common knowledge back then, right? If so where are the ancient texts that support such claim? In other words, if you are saying that Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) was influenced by other Empires and religious groups (Zoroastrians, Jews, Christians) and therefore he gained knowledge from them which he incorporated later in holy Qur'an, where is the evidence? Does the Bible (which is almost 5 times bigger than Qur'an) have those facts? Or perhaps other holy books?

Otherwise this will merely be an invalid assumption.

I personally do not class Holy Books as History books although they reference places and some people that can be cross referenced with archaeological and historical records . Its fairly easy to get a broad idea of where i am coming from when you realize that Arabs would have come into Hellenistic influences since the time of Alexander, Then theres Roman, Sassanid etc etc .

Theres no need for detail study a quick Google search Will find you.

Arabian Peninsula - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pre-Islamic Arabia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and thats just for the Arabian Peninsula. countries like Iraq,Iran,Syria ,Egypt, have a very detailed and incredibly long History thats well known. I havnt seen anything proposed as Scientific revelation that wasnt already known about at that time or indeed many centuries earlier.
Ancient Arabia
Really! to claim Arabs were that ignorant of Greek and Roman, Persian or Egyptian science and technology is quite an assumption and i would Have to ask HOW SO! because that would indeed be a mystery.

 

[brainuser]

Okay, I'll respond to it. Does this mean you agree with me, that there is no *evidence* of the science of embryogenesis in those verses?

My mentioning of other examples doesn't mean the embryo example is not an evidence. It's a very strong evidene that should make anybody think to study Quraan. I wanted to say, it's not one example we are showing, I wanted to say Quraan is full of other examples.

Then to the example of darkness in the deep sees, here is my reply:

First the verse describes a deep sea (Simply because it says a deep sea, not a lake or any other thing), not a shallow water. In all the depths humans were able to go in seas, whenever one looks at his hand, he can see it. Again the verse speaks about deep seas not lakes that have black or brown water due to mud or materials concentrated in it. The verse is accurate .

Second, the verse is inaccurate propaganda

And so?!

Third, it suggests that the layers of waves and clouds are what cause the darkness.

The verse did say that in the described situation there are many darknesses (the Arabic word is plural which means more than two darknesses). And it's well known that with clouds and waves alone you can still see your hand. So, this is clear to deduce that because of the sea depth you can't see your hand.

Fourth, both the Old Testament, Beowulf, and (I suspect) many ancient tales refer to darkness in deep waters

Did these other books mention that you can't see ur hand? :sarcastic . I will reply your post about miracles in other ancient books later.

Fifth, Mecca is near the coast, any fisherman throwing a net overboard can watch it disappear into darkness

Any diver can know that he sees everything under water within or even much below the depths he can go to. Were people in Mecca able to dive below 30 meters? Moreover were they able to measure the (unseen) waves? Plus Muhammed (pbuh) was not a fisherman. And, it would take a travel journey to go to sea shore.

Finally....this does not have much bearing on this specific issue, but for the record even Islamic tradition acknowledges (correct?) that the Qur'an was first transmitted orally by Muhammad, then written by others (his companions)

Correction: Quraan was recited by Muhammad to his companions, and in the same time writers were writing it. So many men preserved Quraan completely in their memory and it was written in the same time at the time of Muhammad (pbuh). Even if we suppose that a verse is written by someone else (which is not true), would he be able to put scientific miracles?

the pheomenon of internal waves your Islamic website refers to generally occurs from tidal flow over shallow obstacles, in shallow waters, according to this undersea research sitel

Correction: The site speaks about that these shallow obstacles are the causes of the disturbane in water that cause these internal waves which happens in oceans. It didn't say it happens in shallow water (like shallow seas). Don't be sad we are all humans and make mistakes like these

The idea about Quraan scientific miracles is not each one alone. Or seeing based on one example that Quraan is true. Because as you said many people made correct guesses based on some weak evidences. But did anyone make so many true guesses without any error!!!!! Plus the miracles in Quraan are more clear, strong, and numerous. That should make any wise person to stop and think. This book should be so special. This book is not written by human. Didn't I tell you we humans make mistakes??

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I personally do not class Holy Books as History books although they reference places and some people that can be cross referenced with archaeological and historical records . Its fairly easy to get a broad idea of where i am coming from when you realize that Arabs would have come into Hellenistic influences since the time of Alexander, Then theres Roman, Sassanid etc etc .

Theres no need for detail study a quick Google search Will find you.

Arabian Peninsula - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pre-Islamic Arabia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and thats just for the Arabian Peninsula. countries like Iraq,Iran,Syria ,Egypt, have a very detailed and incredibly long History thats well known. I havnt seen anything proposed as Scientific revelation that wasnt already known about at that time or indeed many centuries earlier.
Ancient Arabia
Really! to claim Arabs were that ignorant of Greek and Roman, Persian or Egyptian science and technology is quite an assumption and i would Have to ask HOW SO! because that would indeed be a mystery.

Well kai I think it's all part of the myth of Islamic history, this idea that before Islam, all the Arabs were evil ignorant pagans who didn't know their left foot from their right, until the Qur'an enlightened them. There was an element of this kind of thinking about Christian history at my Catholic high school....this idea that all the "pagans" before Christianity were uncivilized fools....you know, all those Zoroastrians, Manichaens, Persians, Egyptians, Babylonians, Sassanids, Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Mongols, Chinese, Turks....all evil barbaric "pagans". While I am sure both Christianity and Islam were civilizing in some ways, it's not as simple a picture as this. But as they say, history favors the victor.

 

[brainuser]

Hi ProudMuslim! Great question. I tried to demonstrate how you can find lots of *apparent* scientific knowledge in many ancient writings here (relevant parts copied below). But before you read it, I want to ask you to do something: try to pretend (just for a moment) that you found these verses in the Qur'an. In other words, try to read the words from the perspective that these words appear in a book which you have always considered to be the holiest and truest thing ever written, the way a Hindu, Buddhist, etc. would read them.

Then I would like to know if you think these verses demonstrate profound scientific insight beyond human capability, or not....

​

How did the Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, Greeks, and Orok people know all these things?!

The examples you provided are all different from the examples we provided for Quraan as follows:
About the atom, it was a philosophical thinking in a logical way. i.e. materials are either a continuum or composed of small discrete things. So, a group took the first opinion and the others took the second one. Then the second group was divided; are these small things all similar or different for different material. So they take one opinion or another based on each person's ideas. So it's a normal human thinking. But if someone was making so many (non-evidence based) guesses which are all true, and with no errors, I would say either he is more knowledgeable than I thought first, or he should have got this knowledge somewhere else.

Most of the other examples doesn't show relations to the scientific fact or theory mentioned after, e.g. "Everything and nothing are all interconnected, inseparable, a whole". What's the relation between this and the big bang?! and the appearance of new atoms from vacuum?!!

Finding a lot of people relating general ancient sentences to physical discoveries without evidence, doesn't mean all people do that! But it means you should be more careful.

By the way, I don't mind that other ancient books may contain some recently discovered facts. As a Muslim, I believe there were many prophets before Islam who received knowledge from God. And also some guesses may turn out to be true. But no human can always guess the right thing.

 

[kai]

MS, you said:

<< Humans start out as a single cell, which divides into billions and billions of cells. The Qur'an leaves out this most basic and fundamental fact, i.m.o. because its human authors didn't know about cells. >>

And you forget the stage prior to that, which is when the male sperm and the female fluid unite

The Qur'an clearly says that all creatures are created from pairs

The author of the Qur'an was not a human author, MS, but our own Creator

what about the existence of asexual, hermaphroditic and parthenogenetic organisms, but then any 7th century man wouldnt know that.

 

[McBell]

*gets on pontoon*

 

[kai]

Your accusation against Dr. Moore is unfounded, MS

But to answer this point:



OK, here is another scientific hint mentioned in the Qur'an 1,400 year ago:

What is the origin of iron?

Dr. Al-Naggar, Professor of Earth Sciences, answers this question:

Dr. Zaghloul El-Naggar

The ancient Egyptians already derived that concept three thousand years before Islam. They called iron “ba-en-pet” or ‘metal from heaven’

 

[Gharib]

No, that's not what you said. Maybe it's what you meant, but it's not what you said.

i think thats ver true.

Gee, have you ever considered that maybe the problem lies in your communication skills? I mean English obviously isn't your first language, so maybe you should take a little care with it and be sure you're actually saying what you mean. Also, if you don't want to be rude, whining about how we're no better than 4-year-olds is a bad tactic

yes i see, i do think my communication skills are a bit off, i cannot express that which i think, so i do agree it is my fault. sorry for that.

 

[Sahar]

My mentioning of other examples doesn't mean the embryo example is not an evidence. It's a very strong evidene that should make anybody think to study Quraan. I wanted to say, it's not one example we are showing, I wanted to say Quraan is full of other examples.

Then to the example of darkness in the deep sees, here is my reply:

First the verse describes a deep sea (Simply because it says a deep sea, not a lake or any other thing), not a shallow water. In all the depths humans were able to go in seas, whenever one looks at his hand, he can see it. Again the verse speaks about deep seas not lakes that have black or brown water due to mud or materials concentrated in it. The verse is accurate .

And so?!

The verse did say that in the described situation there are many darknesses (the Arabic word is plural which means more than two darknesses). And it's well known that with clouds and waves alone you can still see your hand. So, this is clear to deduce that because of the sea depth you can't see your hand.

Did these other books mention that you can't see ur hand? :sarcastic . I will reply your post about miracles in other ancient books later.

Any diver can know that he sees everything under water within or even much below the depths he can go to. Were people in Mecca able to dive below 30 meters? Moreover were they able to measure the (unseen) waves? Plus Muhammed (pbuh) was not a fisherman. And, it would take a travel journey to go to sea shore.

Correction: Quraan was recited by Muhammad to his companions, and in the same time writers were writing it. So many men preserved Quraan completely in their memory and it was written in the same time at the time of Muhammad (pbuh). Even if we suppose that a verse is written by someone else (which is not true), would he be able to put scientific miracles?

Correction: The site speaks about that these shallow obstacles are the causes of the disturbane in water that cause these internal waves which happens in oceans. It didn't say it happens in shallow water (like shallow seas). Don't be sad we are all humans and make mistakes like these

The idea about Quraan scientific miracles is not each one alone. Or seeing based on one example that Quraan is true. Because as you said many people made correct guesses based on some weak evidences. But did anyone make so many true guesses without any error!!!!! Plus the miracles in Quraan are more clear, strong, and numerous. That should make any wise person to stop and think. This book should be so special. This book is not written by human. Didn't I tell you we humans make mistakes??

The examples you provided are all different from the examples we provided for Quraan as follows:
About the atom, it was a philosophical thinking in a logical way. i.e. materials are either a continuum or composed of small discrete things. So, a group took the first opinion and the others took the second one. Then the second group was divided; are these small things all similar or different for different material. So they take one opinion or another based on each person's ideas. So it's a normal human thinking. But if someone was making so many (non-evidence based) guesses which are all true, and with no errors, I would say either he is more knowledgeable than I thought first, or he should have got this knowledge somewhere else.

Most of the other examples doesn't show relations to the scientific fact or theory mentioned after, e.g. "Everything and nothing are all interconnected, inseparable, a whole". What's the relation between this and the big bang?! and the appearance of new atoms from vacuum?!!

Finding a lot of people relating general ancient sentences to physical discoveries without evidence, doesn't mean all people do that! But it means you should be more careful.

By the way, I don't mind that other ancient books may contain some recently discovered facts. As a Muslim, I believe there were many prophets before Islam who received knowledge from God. And also some guesses may turn out to be true. But no human can always guess the right thing.

Excellent posts my dear brother. Jazak Allahu khayran.

It's a very strong evidene that should make anybody think to study Quraan.

Not any body brother but those who are honest and seeking for the truth.
"And if they should see every sign, they will not believe in it. Even when they come to you arguing with you, those who disbelieve say, "These are nothing but tales of the ancients." Al An'am

 

[Imagist]

Now we see how well he can back peddle....

Why would he backpedal? If the obvious problems so far don't concern him, then neither will our refutations of his "facts".

 

[Imagist]

- Make scientific guesses which were proven hundreds of years later (e.g. big bang theory), but did not make any guess which was proven wrong.

Wow. Where did you learn to read? None of the non-Muslims have made this argument.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

My mentioning of other examples doesn't mean the embryo example is not an evidence. It's a very strong evidene that should make anybody think to study Quraan. I wanted to say, it's not one example we are showing, I wanted to say Quraan is full of other examples.

Okay. I understand that that is your argument.

Then to the example of darkness in the deep sees, here is my reply:

First the verse describes a deep sea (Simply because it says a deep sea, not a lake or any other thing), not a shallow water.

True...

In all the depths humans were able to go in seas, whenever one looks at his hand, he can see it. Again the verse speaks about deep seas not lakes that have black or brown water due to mud or materials concentrated in it. The verse is accurate .

Well first of all if we accept your interpretation, then it is inaccurate. Because underwater internal waves have nothing to do with the darkness in the deep sea. Furthermore all bodies of water have materials floating in them, some just have more or less, so that light does not penetrate at longer or shorter distances. It's all a matter of degree, with crystal clear waters being on one end and solid green or brown waters on the other. Sure you can see your hand underwater...unless you are swimming at dawn or dusk. There must be some time during a 24 hour period when there is just enough light that you can see your hand just below the surface, but not at 10 or 25 meters.

I am sorry but I am just not as impressed as you are by the "hand" detail. That detail would naturally follow from the fact that it is very, very dark at great depths. And this fact could easily have been known, extrapolated, or imagined from common knowledge; because even in daylight, distant objects underwater are not visible, and when you look down you can see it's much darker below you than above you, moreso if you're far out to sea (where it is deeper). Especially since humans had been diving to depths of 25 meters since at least 400 BC, about 1,000 years before Muhammad, people must have noticed the trend that it's darker at greater depth, especially in deep waters, especially when there are waves and it's cloudy.

And so?!

Sorry, I don't understand your question.

The verse did say that in the described situation there are many darknesses (the Arabic word is plural which means more than two darknesses). And it's well known that with clouds and waves alone you can still see your hand. So, this is clear to deduce that because of the sea depth you can't see your hand.

Right, because of the sea depth. Not because of waves or clouds. The suggestion is that waves or clouds have an effect on the darkness at great sea depths, which is inaccurate.

Did these other books mention that you can't see ur hand? :sarcastic .

No, they just say there was darkness and/or no light.

I will reply your post about miracles in other ancient books later.

Any diver can know that he sees everything under water within or even much below the depths he can go to.

That's ridiculous, you can't see everything, not even just below the surface. Here is a photo of a guy snorkeling in the Red Sea (from here). Clearly you can't see indefinitely....distant objects fade into darkness. The effect would be more dramatic if you were in deep water looking down.

Were people in Mecca able to dive below 30 meters?

No, very unlikely. Also unnecessary, 30 meters is plenty.

Moreover were they able to measure the (unseen) waves?

No, that's why he doesn't actually describe internal waves, it's just an imaginative description intended to illustrate how confused/ignorant unbelievers are. :sarcastic

Plus Muhammed (pbuh) was not a fisherman. And, it would take a travel journey to go to sea shore.

Mecca is only 70 kilometers from the Red Sea and was an important trading center, there must have been a lot of contact with sailors and fishermen.

Correction: Quraan was recited by Muhammad to his companions, and in the same time writers were writing it. So many men preserved Quraan completely in their memory and it was written in the same time at the time of Muhammad (pbuh).

Thanks for clarifying. So that's the story according to Islamic tradition....whether this is historically accurate is another matter.

Even if we suppose that a verse is written by someone else (which is not true), would he be able to put scientific miracles?

No. And that's why no scientific miracles are evident in the text. But there is a false suggestion that waves and clouds have something to do with why it is pitch black in the deep sea.

Correction: The site speaks about that these shallow obstacles are the causes of the disturbane in water that cause these internal waves which happens in oceans. It didn't say it happens in shallow water (like shallow seas). Don't be sad we are all humans and make mistakes like these

I'm sorry you're right, I was mistaken.

The idea about Quraan scientific miracles is not each one alone. Or seeing based on one example that Quraan is true. Because as you said many people made correct guesses based on some weak evidences. But did anyone make so many true guesses without any error!!!!! Plus the miracles in Quraan are more clear, strong, and numerous. That should make any wise person to stop and think. This book should be so special. This book is not written by human. Didn't I tell you we humans make mistakes??

Yes and so does the Qur'an, so far it has said humans start out as clay (not true), that they are formed into a leech (not true), then a new creature (not true), and now you're telling me the Qur'an says internal waves, surface waves, and clouds make it dark in the deep sea (not true), and that all unbelievers are in a state of darkness (not true, but I'll admit it's a matter of opinion).

And centuries before the Qur'an human beings were writing far more scientifically profound things about math, astronomy, anatomy, etc. in Greece and elsewhere.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

The examples you provided are all different from the examples we provided for Quraan as follows:
About the atom, it was a philosophical thinking in a logical way. i.e. materials are either a continuum or composed of small discrete things. So, a group took the first opinion and the others took the second one. Then the second group was divided; are these small things all similar or different for different material. So they take one opinion or another based on each person's ideas. So it's a normal human thinking. But if someone was making so many (non-evidence based) guesses which are all true, and with no errors, I would say either he is more knowledgeable than I thought first, or he should have got this knowledge somewhere else.

I see what you are saying but I think you have moved the goalposts. You and the other Muslims were saying how "scientifically accurate" passages from the Qur'an are; I disputed that they were accurate, and showed that many ancient texts can be interpreted as accurate. Now you're saying, okay so other texts can be interpreted as accurate, but actually what makes the Qur'an so special is it contains no errors. This is a new argument in addition to the one about it being accurate.....but in response I would say, from what I have seen, it contains serious errors, and not just errors of omission.

Most of the other examples doesn't show relations to the scientific fact or theory mentioned after, e.g. "Everything and nothing are all interconnected, inseparable, a whole". What's the relation between this and the big bang?! and the appearance of new atoms from vacuum?!!

Of course I think the resemblance between this passage and science is coincidental, but you *could* interpret it this way....physicists only recently discovered that particles do come in and out of existence out of "nothing", or the vacuum, and everything that exists, exists on top of this vacuum and interacts with it, sometimes particles disappear into nothingness, sometimes they appear out of nothingness...so you can't separate "nothing" from "everything", nothingness sort of blends together with everything else....this also has to do with the big bang because everything is interconnected, since everything comes from a singularity in spacetime--everything comes from the same point in space, from the same time, which connects all particles in the universe together.

Finding a lot of people relating general ancient sentences to physical discoveries without evidence, doesn't mean all people do that!

I found the ancient sentences, and I wrote the descriptions, just to illustrate my point (in case that wasn't clear). By the way the Orok myth was very specific....the Earth was liquid, and so hot that stones and cliffs boiled....that's at least as specific as the Qur'an supposedly describing embryos as "clay", a "leech", a "chewed piece of flesh", etc.

By the way, I don't mind that other ancient books may contain some recently discovered facts. As a Muslim, I believe there were many prophets before Islam who received knowledge from God. And also some guesses may turn out to be true. But no human can always guess the right thing.

Agreed, unless the guesses are sufficiently vague.