Islam, Science & Common Sense

[Imagist]

OK, one important point to take into account when we are talking about what may be described as "vague passages" in the Qur'an is that the target audience is not only people with a good understanding of the basics of science who live in the 20 and 21 st. centuries, but also readers with no scientific knowledge whatsoever who lived 1,400 years ago

If the text is too technical, the first group would understand and appreciate it more whereas the second group (the people who first received the Revelation) would not have understood a thing, and would therefore not have believed

Right?

With this issue in the background, (and assuming for a minute that there is a Creator), it makes perfect sense that the scientific hints mentioned by The Creator for people to be convinced that this book was not written by man but that it is in fact a divine revelation, would in most cases be general statements which the early generation could more or less understand in a basic way, whereas the more scientific-oriented reader in later generatons (like Dr. Moore and many other scientists) would appreciate at a much deeper level

Would you agree with that?

No.

There's nothing about the specifics of the big bang or embryonic development that the people of the day could not have understood if it had been explained in their terms.

For example, here's a very specific description of the big bang which describes all of its fundamental attributes in non-scientific language:

At first everything, including the stars, the ocean, and the desert, were all squeezed down into a tiny little ball smaller than a grain of sand. This tiny little ball was hotter than the hottest fire or the sun. Then it grew very very quickly and split into gigantic pieces which cooled down and formed groups which spun like wheels. Each of these pieces separated into different materials; some of them became water, some air, some earth, and others became all the things around you. One of those pieces is the earth beneath your feet.

This explanation covers all the basics of the big bang:
1. The initial hot state.
2. The expansion.
3. The differentiation of elements.
4. The formation of galaxies.

What about this would not have been understood by the people of the time?

Furthermore, if it was written for the people of the time, why are you still following it? If you admit that the explanations are outdated, does it occur to you that the other things might also be outdated and only intended for the people of the time?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

OK, one important point to take into account when we are talking about what may be described as "vague passages" in the Qur'an is that the target audience is not only people with a good understanding of the basics of science who live in the 20 and 21 st. centuries, but also readers with no scientific knowledge whatsoever who lived 1,400 years ago

If the text is too technical, the first group would understand and appreciate it more whereas the second group (the people who first received the Revelation) would not have understood a thing, and would therefore not have believed

Right?

With this issue in the background, (and assuming for a minute that there is a Creator), it makes perfect sense that the scientific hints mentioned by The Creator for people to be convinced that this book was not written by man but that it is in fact a divine revelation, would in most cases be general statements which the early generation could more or less understand in a basic way, whereas the more scientific-oriented reader in later generatons (like Dr. Moore and many other scientists) would appreciate at a much deeper level

Would you agree with that?

I agree it would make sense not to make an explanation too technical. However, we probably disagree about how technical would be "too technical". We know ancient humans were just as capable of sophisticated understanding as we are today. In fact many ancient humans had already been reading far more technical works about human development (like the works of Galen) for 500 years before the Qur'an. And we know modern children, who start out with no scientific understanding, are capable of grasping "technical" details, like the fact that cells exist, which appear in children's introductory science books.

But even if I agreed with you on everything you said above....that only addresses the issue, "Could the Qur'an have been authored by an infinite deity?"

Let's say I agree with you, that the answer to this question is "yes"....even though we still have mysteries like why an infinite being would leave out the most crucial facts in his explanations.

Does this mean the Qur'an was actually authored by an infinite deity? No. To reach any definite conclusion, we have to answer another question: "Could the Qur'an have been authored by 7th century humans?"

If the answer to this question is "yes", then the simplest explanation is that the Qur'an was authored by humans (like all books). If the answer to this question is "no", then we have some evidence the Qur'an was authored by an infinite being.

This question is very easy to answer i.m.o. and the answer is "yes". The verses in the Qur'an about human development definitely, absolutely could have been authored by 7th century humans. I have not seen a single line from the Qur'an, or any book, which could not have been written by humans who were living at the time. If it talked about cells and DNA or wrote down the mass of the electron....then I might say, no, this could not have been written by humans. But it doesn't. It offers vague descriptions of a "chewed lump of flesh" etc. Such a description was completely within the imagination and understanding of humans in the 7th century. (In fact far more sophisticated descriptions had been written by humans 500 years earlier.) Sure, such a verse might have been authored by God who was trying to drop hints without being too technical...and by that reasoning we might conclude almost anything could be hints from God which we don't understand yet....nevertheless, it could have been written by humans, too.

And if the Qur'an (like any ancient book) was written by humans, this would explain why the scientific explanations in the Qur'an are often misleading, unclear, and incomplete.

 

[brainuser]

1.

"Could the Qur'an have been authored by an infinite deity?2. "

2.

"Could the Qur'an have been authored by 7th century humans?"

I agree with you that these are the basic questions. And to answer them let us put some evidences for each answer.
If the answer to question 1 is "yes" as it is then Qur'an shouldn't contain any error. So, if anyone proves that there's something scientifically wrong in Qur'an this means either it's not the word of God or at least it has been changed.
If the answer to question 2 is "no" so there should be something in Qur'an that a human in 7th century living in non-scientific society of that time can't write.
About The verses in the Quran about human development in the womb. Of course, this couldn't be written by a human in that age, because of a simple thing: They need a microscope to see these things, plus the description describes some phases with the best possible words (e.g. differential and non-differential chewed flesh phase) It describes shape and composition. So how Muhammad(pbuh) know that??
And many other things. For example, “Or (the unbelievers’ state) is like the darkness in a deep sea. It is covered by waves, above which are waves, above which are clouds. Darknesses, one above another. If a man stretches out his hand, he cannot see it....” (Quran 24:40)
Here's a clear reference to that in the deep water it's too dark to see. And this has been discovered only recently after the invention of tools that can go so deeply in water to depths of at least 200m (and no light at all reaches 1000m), so how Muhammed knew that? Do you still say he can know that knowing that no human can dive without help of special equipments deeper than 20m or 30 m?? Moreover, the verse refers clearly to some waves inside the deep see that is different from those on the sea surface. And it wasn't until recently that people discovered these internal waves

"The internal waves cover the deep waters of seas and oceans because the deep waters have a higher density than the waters above them. Internal waves act like surface waves. They can also break, just like surface waves. Internal waves cannot be seen by the human eye, but they can be detected by studying temperature or salinity changes at a given location" Taken from Oceanography, Gross, p. 205. For more info check ww w.islamreligion.com/articles/217/#_ftn4286 .
How did Muhammed knew that? Did he have the tools to dive so deep in sea and to measure "temperature or salinity changes at a given location"??

So, the answer to question 2 is clearly no. So Qur'an is actually not written by a human being.

About the question why doesn't Quraan describe these facts clearly that it would teach old muslims these facts before they are discovered nowadays?!
The answer is simple: would it be a miracle for the nowadays people if it has been well known at the of prophet Muhammed (SAW)? The miracle is after humans discover these facts, they find it well described in Qur'an (although wasn't well understood or noted before).
Another thing is that the teaching of these science facts are not the main message of Qur'an.
So, why didn't Qur'an mention other basic newly discovered facts? Who said so?? Do you know that it was discovered recently that black holes are refered to in the Qur'an by description, also Pulsar stars also described briefly in Qur'an!!

 

[McBell]

BrainUser,
Did you by chance read post #56?


It amazes me the lengths some people will go to in order to show how stupid their ancestors truly had to be in order to not know anything just so that they can use it as "proof" that their holy book is indeed holy.

 

[Sahar]

BrainUser,
Did you by chance read post #56?


It amazes me the lengths some people will go to in order to show how stupid their ancestors truly had to be in order to not know anything just so that they can use it as "proof" that their holy book is indeed holy.

Is this the best you can do?

 

[Sahar]

that a human in 7th century living in non-scientific society of that time can't write.

Exactly, the Qur'an came from an environment and a society that was isolated from the outside world, had no appreciation for knowledge or science, how come and they even couldn't write or read, maybe the best thing they could do following their ancestors' traditions blindly and of course eloquence of their speech and poetry and the Qur'an challenged them at what they good at. The Qur'an named that stage: Jahilliya "the state of ignorance".

 

[Cordoba]

Let's say I agree with you, that the answer to this question is "yes"....even though we still have mysteries like why an infinite being would leave out the most crucial facts in his explanations.

Does this mean the Qur'an was actually authored by an infinite deity? No. To reach any definite conclusion, we have to answer another question: "Could the Qur'an have been authored by 7th century humans?"

If the answer to this question is "yes", then the simplest explanation is that the Qur'an was authored by humans (like all books). If the answer to this question is "no", then we have some evidence the Qur'an was authored by an infinite being.

Agreed

That's a consistent and logical line of thought

This question is very easy to answer i.m.o. and the answer is "yes". The verses in the Qur'an about human development definitely, absolutely could have been authored by 7th century humans. I have not seen a single line from the Qur'an, or any book, which could not have been written by humans who were living at the time. If it talked about cells and DNA or wrote down the mass of the electron....then I might say, no, this could not have been written by humans. But it doesn't. It offers vague descriptions of a "chewed lump of flesh" etc. Such a description was completely within the imagination and understanding of humans in the 7th century. (In fact far more sophisticated descriptions had been written by humans 500 years earlier.) Sure, such a verse might have been authored by God who was trying to drop hints without being too technical...and by that reasoning we might conclude almost anything could be hints from God which we don't understand yet....nevertheless, it could have been written by humans, too.

OK, that's your initial answer to the question (based on the subject of embryology):

"Could the Qur'an have been authored by 7th century humans?"

There are however many other dimensions

The probability of tossing a coin and getting one side the first time is 50% (1 out of 2 chances), but to get that same side of the coin 10 times in a row is a much smaller probability, and nearly impossible for it to appear 100 times in a row, ... etc

This is what can be understood from the scientific hints in the Qur'an on knowledge which did not exist at the turn of the 7th. century. To get one matter right may be a coincidence, twice or three times is also possible

But what would you say if we are dealing with hundreds or thousands of scientific subjects which all turn out to be correct?

For further reflection on this matter, when you have tim I invite you to look at this article titled (The Amazing Qur'an) written by Dr. Gary Miller

http://4newmuslims.com/pdf/The Amazing Quran.pdf

 

[McBell]

Is this the best you can do?

ROTFLMAO

You guys just crack me up.

 

[McBell]

Exactly, the Qur'an came from an environment and a society that was isolated from the outside world, had no appreciation for knowledge or science, how come and they even couldn't write or read, maybe the best thing they could do following their ancestors' traditions blindly and of course eloquence of their speech and poetry and the Qur'an challenged them at what they good at. The Qur'an named that stage: Jahilliya "the state of ignorance".

Yes, they were so stupid it is amazing they were able to still breath...

 

[Cordoba]

This is a quote from Dr. Gary Miller's article (The Amazing Qur'an) on an interview with Dr. Keith Moore:

He (Dr. Moore) said, "It does not matter if someone had tried to discover embryology fourteen centuries ago, they could not have seen it!"

All of the descriptions in the Qur'an of the appearance of the embryo are of the item when it is still too small to see with the eye; therefore, one needs a microscope to see it. ...

In fact, when he (Dr. Moore) was asked, "How do you explain this information in the Qur'an?" Dr. Moore's reply was, "It could only have
been divinely revealed."!​

http://4newmuslims.com/pdf/The Amazing Quran.pdf

(page 5/17)

 

[McBell]

Dr Gary Miller Reference Page

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Thank you MS for your objective response

Sorry Cordoba I forgot to say....you're welcome! Thank you for your responses as well.

 

[gnostic]

And do Muslims accept the theory of evolution?

There are some Muslims here that accept Evolutionism, and there are some who don't. The same thing is happening with some Christians, who are for and against it.

It's really depends on who you talk to. And it really depends on if the individual understand evolution.

I have even met atheists (friends actually) who don't accept evolution, mainly because they don't understand it. Just because they are atheists, it doesn't guarantee that they would or could accept evolution. And that's probably because most of my atheist friends are more business-inclined than scientifically-inclined.

 

[kai]

Exactly, the Qur'an came from an environment and a society that was isolated from the outside world, had no appreciation for knowledge or science, how come and they even couldn't write or read, maybe the best thing they could do following their ancestors' traditions blindly and of course eloquence of their speech and poetry and the Qur'an challenged them at what they good at. The Qur'an named that stage: Jahilliya "the state of ignorance".

not4me

are you seriously asking us to beleive that the Arabs were isolated from the Romans,Persians, Achaemenids,Nabateans, Byzantines,Sassanids, Egyptians,jews and christians, that they had no trade or contact with these "others".

 

[Cordoba]

Kai

For the people of Makkah, and central Arabia in general, there was little contact with the outside world in the sixth century when Prophet Muhammad was born (in the year 571)

There were 2 yearly trade caravans, one in the summer towards the North (to Syria), and one in the winter towards the South (to Yemen), plus the visit to Makkah from other Arab tribes by idol-worshippers

Other than that, Makkah did not have contact with the centers of knowledge at the time, and was quite isolated. Some Jews lived in Madinah, not in Makkah, and some Christians lived in a place called Nagran, and some in Yemen

 

[kai]

Kai

For the people of Makkah, and central Arabia in general, there was little contact with the outside world in the sixth century when Prophet Muhammad was born (in the year 571)

There were 2 yearly trade caravans, one in the summer towards the North (to Syria), and one in the winter towards the South (to Yemen), plus the visit to Makkah from other Arab tribes by idol-worshippers

Other than that, Makkah did not have contact with the centers of knowledge at the time, and was quite isolated. Some Jews lived in Madinah, not in Makkah, and some Christians lived in a place called Nagran, and some in Yemen

Mecca: 1st - 6th century AD

The town of Mecca, in a rocky valley with no agricultural resources, develops into a place of considerable prosperity. There are two good reasons. It is a trading post on the caravan route from the Indian Ocean to the Mediterranean. And it is Arabia's most important place of pilgrimage.

During the centuries before Islam, large numbers of pilgrims arrive in Mecca to perform a ritual act of walking seven times round a small square building known as the Kaaba (Arabic for 'cube').

History of ARABIA


Ptolemy may have called the city "Macoraba", though this identification is controversial.[19] In the 5th century, the Quraysh took control of Mecca, and became skilled merchants and traders. In the 6th century they joined the lucrative spice trade as well, since battles in other parts of the world were causing trade routes to divert from the dangerous sea routes to the relatively more secure overland routes. The Byzantine Empire had previously controlled the Red Sea, but piracy had been on the increase. Another previous route, that from the Persian Gulf via the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, was also being threatened by exploitation from the Sassanid Empire, as well as being disrupted by the Lakhmids, the Ghassanids, and the Roman–Persian Wars. Mecca's prominence as a trading center surpassed the cities of Petra and Palmyra.[20][21]


Mecca - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mecca (Makkah in Arabic) is the center of the Islamic world and the birthplace of both the Prophet Muhammad and the religion he founded. Located in the Sirat Mountains of central Saudi Arabia and 45miles inland from the Red Sea port of Jidda (Jeddah), ancient Mecca was an oasis on the old caravan trade route that linked the Mediterranean world with South Arabia, East Africa, and South Asia. By Roman and Byzantine times it had developed into an important trade and religious center, and was known as Macoraba.

Mecca

 

[Gharib]

Mecca: 1st - 6th century AD

The town of Mecca, in a rocky valley with no agricultural resources, develops into a place of considerable prosperity. There are two good reasons. It is a trading post on the caravan route from the Indian Ocean to the Mediterranean. And it is Arabia's most important place of pilgrimage.

During the centuries before Islam, large numbers of pilgrims arrive in Mecca to perform a ritual act of walking seven times round a small square building known as the Kaaba (Arabic for 'cube').

History of ARABIA


Ptolemy may have called the city "Macoraba", though this identification is controversial.[19] In the 5th century, the Quraysh took control of Mecca, and became skilled merchants and traders. In the 6th century they joined the lucrative spice trade as well, since battles in other parts of the world were causing trade routes to divert from the dangerous sea routes to the relatively more secure overland routes. The Byzantine Empire had previously controlled the Red Sea, but piracy had been on the increase. Another previous route, that from the Persian Gulf via the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, was also being threatened by exploitation from the Sassanid Empire, as well as being disrupted by the Lakhmids, the Ghassanids, and the Roman–Persian Wars. Mecca's prominence as a trading center surpassed the cities of Petra and Palmyra.[20][21]


Mecca - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mecca (Makkah in Arabic) is the center of the Islamic world and the birthplace of both the Prophet Muhammad and the religion he founded. Located in the Sirat Mountains of central Saudi Arabia and 45miles inland from the Red Sea port of Jidda (Jeddah), ancient Mecca was an oasis on the old caravan trade route that linked the Mediterranean world with South Arabia, East Africa, and South Asia. By Roman and Byzantine times it had developed into an important trade and religious center, and was known as Macoraba.

Mecca

how sure are you that the info in this article or what ever is authentic or that it isn't false? the info we muslims put forward when it comes to such things end up being called false because Muhammed (saws) had people executed for writting bad things about him.

you weren't there at the 6'th century in mekka, nor was i and the info from the people that were there states that mekka was issolated untill islam came to power or even untill islam came to exist. thats when people started going places, all influenced bu islam.

 

[Sahar]

They had trades and it's even mentioned in the Qur'an...and the Arab tribes came to Mecca for pilgrimage....
What Cordoba said! LOL

 

[McBell]

how sure are you that the info in this article or what ever is authentic or that it isn't false? the info we muslims put forward when it comes to such things end up being called false because Muhammed (saws) had people executed for writting bad things about him.

you weren't there at the 6'th century in mekka, nor was i and the info from the people that were there states that mekka was issolated untill islam came to power or even untill islam came to exist. thats when people started going places, all influenced bu islam.

What do you have, other than your not liking what you read, to indicate that the information Kai presented is false?

 

[kai]

:thud: