Islam is unable to relate to the diverse contemporary cultures

[Firemorphic]

. . . and that is part of the unfortunate problem.

Yeah, because they should both be stamped out and replaced with the Baha'i faith. Where's the waitress gone?

 

[shunyadragon]

I researched the degree to which Sharia law is implemented in Islamic majority countries. or ones with a significant Islamic population. If truth be told, it was somewhat surprising. I thought it was more widespread than it is. Application of Islamic law by country - Wikipedia

This is about right for what I know. I notice that countries like India, and other non-Islamic countries are included in the mix.

 

[shunyadragon]

Yeah, because they should both be stamped out and replaced with the Baha'i faith. Where's the waitress gone?

Islam is the only religion trying to actively stamp out other religions today like the Baha'i Faith.

In Saudi Arabia it is illegal to practice any other religion than Islam.

 

[Firemorphic]

Islam is the only religion trying to actively stamp out other religions.

Islam doesn't exist

 

[Earthling]

Civilization did change with the rise of the Age of Reason and the separation of church and state.

I assume this was the reasoning behind your unnecessary and inaccurate estimation of Islam.

 

[Vinayaka]

This is about right for what I know. I notice that countries like India, and other non-Islamic countries are included in the mix.

India has a very large Muslim minority, much larger by straight population than most middle eastern countries. But the fact they are not in the majority certainly subdues the radical stuff a lot.

BTW, other religions, mainly Christianity and Buddhism are also state religions. State religion - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I do think the larger the majority, the more likely to be radicalised. You can just get away with more without as many repercussions. I could be wrong though. Tunisia has a very large Islamic majority, yet banned Sharia back in 1956.

 

[danieldemol]

Personally I think fundamentalism in general is a better target than only somone else’s fundamentalism. If Muslims should liberalise to meet with the modern age Baha’is can and should too in my opinion.

 

[Firemorphic]

Personally I think fundamentalism in general is a better target than only somone else’s fundamentalism. If Muslims should liberalise to meet with the modern age Baha’is can and should too in my opinion.

When I saw your name, I knew you'd say that straight away before I even clicked.

 

[Vinayaka]

Personally I think fundamentalism in general is a better target than only somone else’s fundamentalism. If Muslims should liberalise to meet with the modern age Baha’is can and should too in my opinion.

I believe some have, and some have. The planet could most certainly use a few more.

 

[Firemorphic]

I believe some have, and some have. The planet could most certainly use a few more.

Exactly. I know a heap of left-wing (politically) Muslims, I've also met right-wing ones. There is no definitive standard, even if one wants to pigeonhole billions of people. I'm center-left myself but it's hardly relevant.
There is no "Islam", from it's very foundation, it is an individualistic religion. Sadly, there are institutions and governments that (especially in recent centuries following the ottomans) have established their own national laws, using Islam as their scapegoat, but they are not representative of the individual in any such manner.
Whilst I would love to live in a Muslim-majority country myself, I can't say I'm overly impressed any of these so-called "Islamic governments" have gone or are run in regards to certain aspects of religious harmony - but they aren't representative of the Islamic religions or Islamic spirituality to begin with. Like to Baha'i's, the vague idea of "Islam" as an object is these countries whipping-boy. "you say jump, how high?"

 

[sun rise]

the scripture is taught to the children.

I'm Jewish and went to "Hebrew School" when I was young where I was taught Judaism. Not much stuck outside of knowing a few prayers and some stories.

There is a problem with Saudi money being used to hire teachers who don't teach but indoctrinate a strict fanatical view of Islamic law - Wahhabism. That's why I don't count Saudi Arabia as a friend of the West. But this is not inherent to religious instruction but an artifact of a rich nation that made a deal with its home-grown rigid religionists.

 

[shunyadragon]

India has a very large Muslim minority, much larger by straight population than most middle eastern countries. But the fact they are not in the majority certainly subdues the radical stuff a lot.

BTW, other religions, mainly Christianity and Buddhism are also state religions. State religion - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I do think the larger the majority, the more likely to be radicalised. You can just get away with more without as many repercussions. I could be wrong though. Tunisia has a very large Islamic majority, yet banned Sharia back in 1956.

The thread does not address Buddhist countries in terms of State religions. Christianity, another subject, has been moderated for many years by secular humanism,and the separation of church and state, and also subject to another thread. When nations separate church and state things improve,but this is not the case in most of the Islamic world, According to the Quran Islam is the state religion, and the LAW.

No the larger the majority the more radicalized the nations are, but the topic is the nature of Islam in the contemporary world.

 

[shunyadragon]

Personally I think fundamentalism in general is a better target than only somone else’s fundamentalism. If Muslims should liberalise to meet with the modern age Baha’is can and should too in my opinion.

I believe the central concept of the Baha'i Faith is to modernize spiritually and evolve. You're correct fundamentalism is the greater target, but this thread is about the dominance of fundamentalism in the Islamic world. Yes, in Christianity fundamentalism is a severe problem.for example: Probably 40 to over 50% of Americans are fundamentalists, believe in some form of a literal Bible, and Theodicy where Biblical teachings and Laws should be the Law of the Land,but again that is a subject of another thread..

I do not think liberalize is the correct view of the Baha'i Faith concerning change.

 

[icehorse]

You could replace the words Islam and "Shiria Law" for Christianity, and it would be just as correct.

This seems like a "two wrongs make it right" fallacy.

 

[shunyadragon]

Islam doesn't exist

Islam does exist by definition. If you choose a different word or words to describe the believers, so be it, but playing word games gets you nowhere.

I believe you acknowledged Shia and Sunni, you are acknowledging the existence of whatever you may call Islam.

 

[Ellen Brown]

I believe that at one time Islam was a light to the world and the spiritual renewal of civilization, but no more. As time passed Islam remained cloaked in ancient tribal culture, outdated Shiria Law, failure to separate religion from the secular state, violently divided and failure to acknowledge a diverse evolving world.

Turkey has made an effort to separate Islam from Government. The rest of it, I just can't imagine how they get away with some things.

 

[shunyadragon]

Turkey has made an effort to separate Islam from Government. The rest of it, I just can't imagine how they get away with some things.

Turkey's separation of religion and state is on thin ice. The problem with the ancient nature of the Quran, there are a lot of possible interpretations,but one thing is clear religion and state are one and the same.

 

[Firemorphic]

Islam does exist by definition. If you choose a different word or words to describe the believers, so be it, but playing word games gets you nowhere.

I believe you acknowledged Shia and Sunni, you are acknowledging the existence of whatever you may call Islam.

Sunnis, Wahhabis/Salafis, Twelvers, Ismailis, Zaidis and Ahmadis are all completely different world's away. The grounds that they all share are purely historical splinters but out of these develop very separate theological, doctrinal, spiritual, metaphysical, legal and ideological grounds (which often oppose each other) which have almost completely stayed separate from each other (with respective acknowledgement given to some areas were basic aspects of religious law display parallels)

Of course, Sunni mystics after some time come to intuitively discover Twelver doctrines through their own explorations (of the Qur'an specifically) and Ismailis developed their own unique mystical theology and Catholic-esque structure out of their own establishment growing out of their split with Twelvers, which does naturally bare mystical correlation through it's prior association with Twelver Islam (which originates directly with the Qur'an and Ma'sūmūn)

Any non-Muslim will say "oh, but they have the same holy book and prophet" but external ideological interpretation and historical implications of how these culturally formed will show this to be a factually incorrect assertion - as your own religion religion evolved out of our own esoteric eschatology and mystical thought (you'll deny the extent though, naturally).

To break my point down further, "Islam" is not frozen to time, no religion is. There is no single religion or culture in the known history of earth who has stayed exactly the same for thousands of years. The "Islam" of 2019 is very different from the Islam of 1200.
I carry on my back the intellectual thought of the great thinkers of "golden age" Islam, as I do the great thinkers of the 20th century and ancient Greece.
In the relative space of time within current history (being past 300 years), this abstract idea of "Islam" has had it's own cultural stagnation relative to different countries that hold so-called "Islam" as their national religion. Many things go on behind the scenes and as I said earlier, politics is falsely treated as the exemplary faction of so-called "Islamic society" but again, conflating religion/spirituality with political landscapes and the issues that surround it, while they do suit your own agenda, fall flat of giving any genuine representation of what "Islam" is, and not to forget to mention, that it reflects poorly on the image of the Baha'i faith, as many others who speak in such an ideologically bent "My dad is better than your dad" way. You're not hard to see through.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Turkey's separation of religion and state is on thin ice. The problem with the ancient nature of the Quran, there are a lot of possible interpretations,but one thing is clear religion and state are one and the same.

I think the original Islam was admirable, but after Muhammad PBUH died ...

 

[LuisDantas]

Islam doesn't exist

In the sense of perfection, is that what you mean?