Islam is unable to relate to the diverse contemporary cultures

[paarsurrey]

The facts as cited are that high birth rates are the reason for the rapid growth of Islam within Islam.

There are two prominent factors for rapid growth of Islam:

~Islam's natural guidance is the cause of high birth rate in Islam.
~But Islam is also increasing due to people joining Islam from other religions and no-religions.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I did cite the quotations in the Quran the state and religion are one according to the Quran,

I must have missed the post, please provide post number.
Regards

 

[shunyadragon]

There are two prominent factors for rapid growth of Islam:

~Islam's natural guidance is the cause of high birth rate in Islam.

~But Islam is also increasing due to people joining Islam from other religions and no-religions.

Regards

Not supported by the evidence including the references cited.

 

[shunyadragon]

I must have missed the post, please provide post number.
Regards

repeat . . .


I go by the matter of fact Islamic world and how they interpret the Quran and relate to the contemporary world. This where the rubber meets the road of reality. In the history Islam the culture has been dominated by Theocracy or Theodecy where the Quran is the highest form of jurisprudence.

Nonetheless . . .

From: Islam and Democracy

Quran (33:36) - "It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision."

Quran (18:26) - "Allah... makes none to share in His Decision and His Rule"

Quran (45:21) - "What! Do those who seek after evil ways think that We shall hold them equal with those who believe and do righteous deeds,- that equal will be their life and their death? Ill is the judgment that they make." Unbelievers are not equal to Muslims. This is dutifully reflected in Islamic law.

Quran (5:44) - "Whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed is among the disbelievers." A government run by "true" Muslims is a theocracy. Anything less, including democracy or secularism, is a sign of apostasy. This is why terrorists feel justified in their fight for an Islamic state.

Quran (39:9) - "Are those who know equal to those who know not?"

Quran (4:141) - "...And never will Allah grant to the unbelievers a way (to triumphs) over the believers." This is at odds with democracy, which allows anyone to serve in a position of power over others regardless of religious belief.

Quran (63:8) - "...might (power) belongs to Allah and to His messenger and to the believers;" ie. not to anyone else.

Quran (5:49) - "So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires, but beware of them lest they seduce thee from some part of that which Allah hath revealed unto thee" Allah's Quran takes priority over the desires of the people. A democratic nation is by nature one that is not governed by Islamic law, meaning that a Muslim citizen would have divided loyalty. It's clear from this verse which side he must choose.

Quran (12:40) - "...Allah hath sent down no authority: the command is for none but Allah..." Sometimes translated as "None have the right to legislate except Allah."

Quran (4:123) - "Not your desires, nor those of the People of the Book (can prevail): whoever works evil, will be requited accordingly. Nor will he find, besides Allah, any protector or helper."

Quran (4:59) - "O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you..."Obedience is strictly limited to a government drawn from believers, not from the broader community. This verse has also been used to justify submission to autocratic rule, however oppressive it may by. As an Arab tradition put is: "tyranny is better than anarchy."

Quran (9:3) - "...Allah and his messenger are free from obligation to the unbelievers..."Muhammad used this "revelation" to dissolve a standing treaty and chase non-Muslims from their homes if they wouldn't accept Islam. This practice would be incompatible with democratic rule, in which everyone is considered equal.

 

[shunyadragon]

It's no good pointing in any other direction. It was written. Enough.

Sounding like a fundamentalist literalist in understanding scripture.

 

[sooda]

I believe that at one time Islam was a light to the world and the spiritual renewal of civilization, but no more. As time passed Islam remained cloaked in ancient tribal culture, outdated Shiria Law, failure to separate religion from the secular state, violently divided and failure to acknowledge a diverse evolving world.

Do you have an example ?

 

[shunyadragon]

Do you have an example ?

I already just reposted the problem of the Islamic view of state and religion from the Quran. This problem in Judaism and Christianity historically also is a recurring issue.

Is far as the contributions of Islam go already cited examples if you followed the thread.

Again . . .

The restoration of pure Monotheism. Tolerance toward other religions was observed and taught initially. Islam contributed to the development of universities, and the scientific method.

 

[sooda]

Not supported by the evidence including the references cited.

The birthrate drops dramatically with education and healthcare. It certainly has in Saudi Arabia.

 

[sooda]

I already just reposted the problem of the Islamic view of state and religion from the Quran. This problem in Judaism and Christianity historically also is a recurring issue.

Is far as the contributions of Islam go already cited examples if you followed the thread.

Again . . .

The restoration of pure Monotheism. Tolerance toward other religions was observed and taught initially. Islam contributed to the development of universities, and the scientific method.

I am still trying to get used to the format and all the adverts.

 

[shunyadragon]

The birthrate drops dramatically with education and healthcare. It certainly has in Saudi Arabia.

I am responding to the reason for the growth rate in the Islamic world as a whole, and the present birth rate and migration of Muslims, and not the trends in one particular country.

 

[Remté]

repeat . . .


I go by the matter of fact Islamic world and how they interpret the Quran and relate to the contemporary world. This where the rubber meets the road of reality. In the history Islam the culture has been dominated by Theocracy or Theodecy where the Quran is the highest form of jurisprudence.

Nonetheless . . .

From: Islam and Democracy

Quran (33:36) - "It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision."

Quran (18:26) - "Allah... makes none to share in His Decision and His Rule"

Quran (45:21) - "What! Do those who seek after evil ways think that We shall hold them equal with those who believe and do righteous deeds,- that equal will be their life and their death? Ill is the judgment that they make." Unbelievers are not equal to Muslims. This is dutifully reflected in Islamic law.

Quran (5:44) - "Whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed is among the disbelievers." A government run by "true" Muslims is a theocracy. Anything less, including democracy or secularism, is a sign of apostasy. This is why terrorists feel justified in their fight for an Islamic state.

Quran (39:9) - "Are those who know equal to those who know not?"

Quran (4:141) - "...And never will Allah grant to the unbelievers a way (to triumphs) over the believers." This is at odds with democracy, which allows anyone to serve in a position of power over others regardless of religious belief.

Quran (63:8) - "...might (power) belongs to Allah and to His messenger and to the believers;" ie. not to anyone else.

Quran (5:49) - "So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires, but beware of them lest they seduce thee from some part of that which Allah hath revealed unto thee" Allah's Quran takes priority over the desires of the people. A democratic nation is by nature one that is not governed by Islamic law, meaning that a Muslim citizen would have divided loyalty. It's clear from this verse which side he must choose.

Quran (12:40) - "...Allah hath sent down no authority: the command is for none but Allah..." Sometimes translated as "None have the right to legislate except Allah."

Quran (4:123) - "Not your desires, nor those of the People of the Book (can prevail): whoever works evil, will be requited accordingly. Nor will he find, besides Allah, any protector or helper."

Quran (4:59) - "O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you..."Obedience is strictly limited to a government drawn from believers, not from the broader community. This verse has also been used to justify submission to autocratic rule, however oppressive it may by. As an Arab tradition put is: "tyranny is better than anarchy."

Quran (9:3) - "...Allah and his messenger are free from obligation to the unbelievers..."Muhammad used this "revelation" to dissolve a standing treaty and chase non-Muslims from their homes if they wouldn't accept Islam. This practice would be incompatible with democratic rule, in which everyone is considered equal.

Don't cut the ayats to a shape that pleases you.

5:44
"It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers."
It is about the Jews. And that's just one of your misconceptions.

 

[sooda]

I am responding to the reason for the growth rate in the Islamic world as a whole, and the present birth rate and migration of Muslims, and not the trends in one particular country.

I suppose you could look at birthrates in Qatar, the Emirates and Kuwait... I would sort of expect them to be slowing down.. Not so much in Egypt or Pakistan if you get my drift.

 

[shunyadragon]

Don't cut the ayats to a shape that pleases you.

5:44
"It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers."
It is about the Jews. And that's just one of your misconceptions.

Not sure where this is going, but my references are clear. The Quran is the highest standard of jurisprudence in Islam, and there is no separation of religion and state. The references (ayats) form the Quran are clear and specific. The history of Islam is a witness to these ayats.

I do not consider this an adequate response that would include anything else.

 

[Remté]

Not sure where this is going, but my references are clear. The Quran is the highest standard of jurisprudence in Islam, and there is no separation of religion and state. The references (ayats) form the Quran are clear and specific. The history of Islam is a witness to these ayats.

I do not consider this an adequate response that would include anything else.

Your reference is not just false it is incorrect. Your interpretations of the verses are incorrect. Your presentation of the verses are incorrect. It is bad form.

 

[shunyadragon]

Your reference is not just false it is incorrect. Your interpretations of the verses are incorrect. Your presentation of the verses are incorrect. It is bad form.

The references are very literal as to their meaning. Like the last post I will take this response as the inability to respond coherently and avoiding the very literal meaning based on your personal agenda.

 

[Remté]

The references are very literal as to their meaning. Like the last post I will take this response as the inability to respond coherently and avoiding the very literal meaning based on your personal agenda.

References are very literal? What does that mean? The ayats or your words? Why do you bother criticising something you don't bother reading properly? I pointed out one error in the one ayat which you can verify by reading the whole ayat and perhaps the three before it. In fact you should have verified long before you began speaking about it. But it isn't the first time I tell you the fault in your interpretation. Apparently it means nothing to you how Muslims and/or scholars interpret the Quran - you just go around spreading nonsense and hate regardless, thinking it will lift your own religion a bit higher. But you can't get very far tearing others down. In fact I dare say it ruins your own reputation with the reputation of your religion.

 

[shunyadragon]

References are very literal? What does that mean? The ayats or your words? Why do you bother criticising something you don't bother reading properly? I pointed out one error in the one ayat which you can verify by reading the whole ayat and perhaps the three before it. In fact you should have verified long before you began speaking about it. But it isn't the first time I tell you the fault in your interpretation. Apparently it means nothing to you how Muslims and/or scholars interpret the Quran - you just go around spreading nonsense and hate regardless, thinking it will lift your own religion a bit higher. But you can't get very far tearing others down. In fact I dare say it ruins your own reputation with the reputation of your religion.

Ahhh . . . the fallacies of Red Herrings, and personal attacks against me and the Baha'i galore to avoid responding coherently. Modus Operandi of open hostility.

It is not one verse that is the issue, but all of them together. I cite your own Quran, and you cannot deal with it constructively.

 

[sooda]

Don't cut the ayats to a shape that pleases you.

5:44
"It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers."
It is about the Jews. And that's just one of your misconceptions.

The Jews controlled the Kaaba and the pilgrimage. It was a source of revenue.. They were fine with Muhammed until he got rid of all the idols and icons except Virgin Mary.

 

[Remté]

Ahhh . . . the fallacies of Red Herrings, and personal attacks against me and the Baha'i galore to avoid responding coherently. Modus Operandi of open hostility.

It is not one verse that is the issue, but all of them together. I cite your own Quran, and you cannot deal with it constructively.

If you give each of them a false meaning what good does it do to look at all of them together?

 

[Remté]

The Jews controlled the Kaaba and the pilgrimage. It was a source of revenue.. They were fine with Muhammed until he got rid of all the idols and icons except Virgin Mary.

I doubt it.