Ishmael is not a prophet

[gnostic]

Just for your information there is a difference between a prophet and a messenger, not all prophets were messengers but all messengers were prophet. I am not fully aware of the difference between them so let me get educated on this part and maybe we might even reach a common ground!

And I had already told you that not all patriarchs are prophets.

I see people like Jared, Ham, Japheth, Nahor, Lot, Ishmael, Esau, etc were all patriarchs, but not prophets.

As far as am concerned there isn't a direct passage in the Quran that says women couldn't become prophets, but all the prophets listed are men.

Then how can you say that women can't be prophetesses, if it don't actually prohibited women from becoming prophetesses in the Qur'an.

There were some prophets found in the bible that were not, that were not listed in the Qur'an.

Your Qur'an listed David as being a prophet, but as far as the Judaeo-Christian scriptures were concern, he was a king. Nathan was David's prophet. Do you recall when David committed adultery with Bathsheba, and set her husband the most likely to a death trap, and married her?

It was Nathan who communicate with God, not David, to let the king know that the sins he committed. And the Qur'an never mentioned Nathan.

Saul was king, but Samuel was Saul's prophet.

In any case, not all prophets were famous, or introduce new laws or new religion, or lead wars. Most prophets didn't change the way people live.

Anyway, there is a verse in Exodus that indicate women can be prophetess.

Then Miriam the prophetess, Aaron's sister, took a timbrel in her hand, and all the women went out after her in dance with timbrels.

Miriam being Moses' sister. Your Qur'an have listed Moses' other sibling, Aaron, as being but completely ignored her as being one.

Seeing that verse in Exodus, convinced me that the requirement for being is not gender. Sure many prophets were seen as male dominant, but there are precedence in the Judaeo-Christian religions where women can be "prophet".

 

[gnostic]

Proud Muslim:

I don't have response from you for my last post.

Does the last section and quote in regarding to Miriam, sister of Moses and Aaron, satisfy you that women can be prophetesses or not?

You say that only men can become prophets, simply on the basis of the fact that the Qur'an only listed male prophets, and not women, and yet you could not find anything in the Qur'an that explicitly prohibit woman of achieving prophethood.

Exodus 15:20 is quite explicit. Is that not proof enough?

Does that not mean Hagar or Sarah can be prophetess too?

 

[gnostic]

Strength is important for physical protection, but of course wisdom is even more important, for decisions, tactics, approach and many more tools important for prophethood.

Sorry, but in regarding to the argument about strength, that's also weak argument.

Tell me, which prophet required physical strength to protect them from physical harm? Which prophet had exhibited great physical strength? How many were known for their strength? How many of these prophets were great warriors?

The list is extremely slim.

Abraham, Joshua, and possibly Samson and Gideon, though I don't really know if they were prophets or not.

Your Qur'an have listed Isaac and Jacob as being prophets, and yet neither were known for their physical strength. Jacob's brother, Esau was stronger, physically. Of the 12 brothers, Joseph was not known for his physical strength too, but for his wisdom and his ability to interpret dreams or visions.

And Moses was chosen not because of his strength. He wasn't a warrior.

 

[ProudMuslim]

Proud Muslim:

I don't have response from you for my last post.

Gnostic, i am a bit busy with my work. I will get back to you as soon as i am available.

 

[TashaN]

**MOD ADVISORY**

Guys, please try not to go into personal attacks. Sometimes the topic might be so hot, that we let our emotions slide and get a bit out of control.

Show us some love please! ​

 

[gnostic]

Hello TashaN

Have you given any thought to the OP, whether Ishmael being a prophet or not?

I know that the Qur'an listed him as being a prophet, at least a couple of times, however nothing in the Qur'an actually demonstrate that he was ever a prophet apart from his name being in the list.

And I have given example in the Genesis (either from the Christian bible or Hebrew tanakh) that demonstrate that he was not a prophet. That his mother, Hagar, seemed to be more a prophet than him, because of divine messages and interventions, both before and after Ishmael was born. The Genesis said Ishmael would be a father of nation or nations, but not that he would be a prophet.

Do you think my reasoning is logical?

I would like you thought.

I would also like your thought about women being female prophets, but I supposed it would be discuss in the other thread I had created - Can women be prophetesses in Abrahamic religions?

 

[TashaN]

Hello TashaN

Have you given any thought to the OP, whether Ishmael being a prophet or not?

I know that the Qur'an listed him as being a prophet, at least a couple of times, however nothing in the Qur'an actually demonstrate that he was ever a prophet apart from his name being in the list.

[54] Also mention in the Book (the story of) Isma'il: he was (strictly) true to what he promised, and he was a Messenger (and) a Prophet.

[55] He used to enjoin on his people Prayer and Charity, and he was most acceptable in the sight of his Lord. (Quran 19:54-55)

Does this help?

I would also like your thought about women being female prophets, but I supposed it would be discuss in the other thread I had created - Can women be prophetesses in Abrahamic religions?

I'll check it out.

 

[gnostic]

[54] Also mention in the Book (the story of) Isma'il: he was (strictly) true to what he promised, and he was a Messenger (and) a Prophet.

[55] He used to enjoin on his people Prayer and Charity, and he was most acceptable in the sight of his Lord.

I understand that it say that the Qur'an say that he is a prophet. However, they are mere statement of him being a prophet. There are no examples of deeds in the verse 19:54-55 that demonstrate that he is a prophet.

There are far more to being a prophet in public prayers for the people, or offering charity to people. Anyone could have done that in ancient Israelite history without being a prophet.

• The Qur'an say he is a Messenger and the Muslims believed that he was a Messenger, but then, what were the divine messages that Ishmael delivered?

I don't know if you read Judges in either the Tanakh or Bible before. Deborah was a wife to Lappidoth, and yet it didn't stop her from being prophet and judge for 40 years. It tell of how people sought her advice and judgement, because she was judge and prophet, and even sought her counsel in war against the Canaanite army. Get your hand on the copy, and read the Book of Judges 4 and 5; that's two whole chapters about Deborah; more than mere a verse or two, here and there, in the Qur'an for Ishmael.

And even though Hagar is not mention in the Tanakh or Bible as being a prophet, she looked far more qualified as being a prophet than her son.

I am not dismissing Ishmael as being great, TashaN. And that's what Muslims here probably think.

He is the son of Abraham, and he is a Patriarch for the Ishmaelites. A patriarch is considered far more important in status than a prophet. Not every patriarchs before Abraham's time were considered to be prophets, but they were nevertheless extremely important.

Judaism and Christianity don't considered David and Solomon to be prophets. They were God's appointed kings.

Samuel was the prophet in both Saul and David's time; however with David, Samuel didn't see David's reign, but he did anointed the young David with oil, as instructed by God.

Nathan is a prophet who delivered a message of rebuke to David for adultery with Bathsheba, and for being responsible for her 1st husband's death. If David was a prophet, then God couldn't have directly communicated and rebuked David without Nathan. Nathan also played an important role in Solomon's accession. However, as a prophet, Nathan was quite minor in status, when compared with David and Solomon. Nathan played his nominal role as messenger (prophet) to both kings, and that's all he need to play.

Apart from the few verses that indicate that Ishmael was a prophet, nothing he has done had showed that he was one. No miracle. No prophecy or sign. No message delivered.

(Please note that I see all scriptures, whether it be from Islam, Judaism or Christianity, to be man-made. That you (and other Muslims) think that Allah is original composer of the Qur'an is merely your belief and faith. That's not proof, just your belief. If anyone is the author, it's your prophet and his scribes. That doesn't mean it's not a holy scripture for Islam.

The Qur'an is a scripture whether I believe in it or not.)

 

[TashaN]

I understand that it say that the Qur'an say that he is a prophet. However, they are mere statement of him being a prophet.

This is the first time i see gnostic, the one i know, appear as if he lack logic.

 

[gnostic]

I understand that it say that the Qur'an say that he is a prophet. However, they are mere statement of him being a prophet.

This is the first time i see gnostic, the one i know, appear as if he lack logic.

:sorry1: TashaN, but is it logical to be a Messenger with no messages to give?

What messages did Ishmael revealed?

You would say that Islam prized on logic, wouldn't you?

I find that Qur'an say that Ishmael is "a Messenger and a Prophet" (your quote from the Qur'an, not mine), but to me, a Messenger without messages to give, Allah or Qur'an (whichever you prefer) would be deemed as being highly illogical.

 

[TashaN]

:sorry1: TashaN, but is it logical to be a Messenger with no messages to give?

Then you should re-construct your question to reflect this view. You should have asked, what was Ishmael's message? but instead, you INSISTED that he wasn't a prophet/messenger although the Quran say so. That seem pretty illogical to me.

 

[gnostic]

Then you should re-construct your question to reflect this view. You should have asked, what was Ishmael's message? but instead, you INSISTED that he wasn't a prophet/messenger although the Quran say so. That seem pretty illogical to me.

Well, I have been asking for examples, that are more than him being in a list or a simple statement that he was a prophet.

And so far, I got no where.

So I provided my own examples that indicate he wasn't in non-Islamic sources. I even went as far as comparing him with his own mother.

But I have been told that women can't be prophets simply because of their gender, and that the Qur'an don't list any women. Which sounded wrong to me. So I started a topic to find women who were prophetesses.

You have to understand that my MAIN interest is in the mythology, so I have concentrated the Genesis more than any other books in the bible, particularly the 1st eleven chapters. I have only read the entire bible, once, from end to end in my late teen. I have read other chapters over the years, that catch my interests, but it is creation myth (in Genesis) that interested me the most. So I don't remember much about other books, and didn't pay attention to what I do now.

With a little help I can find what I am looking for and do a little researches.

For example, i didn't remember that Deborah was a prophetess. I never pay that much attention to that part when I first I read the Judges (or the other couple of times that I did). The female prophetesses only came up because of this topic.

I also didn't pay attention to Ishmael too. It is only recently that I wondered why the Qur'an say he is a prophet.

Anyway, getting back on track on this topic.

• Are there messages, prophecy or miracles that were attributed to Ishmael being a prophet or messenger?

Some that demonstrate his calling.

 

[TashaN]

Anyway, getting back on track on this topic.

• Are there messages, prophecy or miracles that were attributed to Ishmael being a prophet or messenger?

Some that demonstrate his calling.

Now we can talk.

While Allah has sent Jacob to the sons of Israel, Ishmael was inspired by Allah to stay in Arabia "Mekkah", and been sent to them as a Prophet, just like Jacob with sons if Israel.

[163] We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Nuh and the Messengers after him: We sent inspiration to Ibrahim, Isma'il, Ishaq, Ya'qub, and the Tribes, to 'Isa, Ayyub, Yunus, Harun, and Sulaiman, and to Dawud We gave the Psalms. (Quran 4:163)

That's because Allah was sending prophets to all nations.

[36] For We assuredly sent amongst every People a Messenger, (with the Command), "Serve Allah, and eschew Evil": of the people were some whom Allah guided, and some on whom Error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth). (Quran 16:36)

You might check this link below as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Ishmael



Peace be upon you.

 

[Zardoz]

...While Allah has sent Jacob to the sons of Israel, Ishmael was inspired by Allah to stay in Arabia "Mekkah", and been sent to them as a Prophet, just like Jacob with sons if Israel...

I'm confused. Do you mean Jacob, the son of Issac? If so, Jacob = Israel, so Jacob's sons = Israel's sons.

 

[gnostic]

While Allah has sent Jacob to the sons of Israel, Ishmael was inspired by Allah to stay in Arabia "Mekkah", and been sent to them as a Prophet, just like Jacob with sons if Israel.

I'm confused. Do you mean Jacob, the son of Issac? If so, Jacob = Israel, so Jacob's sons = Israel's sons.

Zardoz is referring to the wrestling episode at Peniel.

Said the other, "What is your name?" He replied, "Jacob."
Said he, "Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with beings divine and human, and have prevailed."

 

[TashaN]

I'm confused. Do you mean Jacob, the son of Issac? If so, Jacob = Israel, so Jacob's sons = Israel's sons.

I'm sorry. I meant Isaac, not Jacob.

He remained in the north preaching, where later on it will be the place where the sons of Israel have lived. He was at that area preaching and spreading the word of Allah.

 

[Zardoz]

I'm sorry. I meant Isaac, not Jacob.

He remained in the north preaching, where later on it will be the place where the sons of Israel have lived. He was at that area preaching and spreading the word of Allah.

Ah, thank you, that makes it clearer. So Issac followed in Avraham Avinu's footsteps and preached G-ds laws to all who came? This makes sense. In Islamic tradition, is Issac also blind or near blind at this time? Just curious...

 

[TashaN]

Ah, thank you, that makes it clearer. So Issac followed in Avraham Avinu's footsteps and preached G-ds laws to all who came? This makes sense. In Islamic tradition, is Issac also blind or near blind at this time? Just curious...

You mean Jacob, right?

 

[Zardoz]

You mean Jacob, right?

No, I mean Issac his father. According to our tradition he was blind, and not only in the physical sense but in respect to the nature of his other son Esau.

 

[TashaN]

No, I mean Issac his father. According to our tradition he was blind, and not only in the physical sense but in respect to the nature of his other son Esau.

Do you know why he got blind?