Ishmael is not a prophet

[Zardoz]

Do you know why he got blind?

I have been taught that this occurred during the Binding of Issac (Akedah Yitzak) when the tears of the Angels witnessing the event fell upon him. I have often wondered who they shed these tears for? Surely they knew G-d would not allow harm, so I believed they cried for Avraham. I'm not unaware that Islam has a different interpretation of who exactly was bound, but the real focus of this event is Avraham and how he responds to this final, ultimate test. Yes, Issac survived the test, but not unscathed.

 

[TashaN]

I have been taught that this occurred during the Binding of Issac (Akedah Yitzak) when the tears of the Angels witnessing the event fell upon him. I have often wondered who they shed these tears for? Surely they knew G-d would not allow harm, so I believed they cried for Avraham. I'm not unaware that Islam has a different interpretation of who exactly was bound, but the real focus of this event is Avraham and how he responds to this final, ultimate test. Yes, Issac survived the test, but not unscathed.

In Islam, the Quran tells us that Jacob got blind because of his sorrow over the lose of his favorite son, Joseph "Yusef in Arabic". He cried till got blind. Then Allah has restored his sight at the hand of his son.

Islamic view of Joseph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[gnostic]

Now we can talk.

While Allah has sent Jacob to the sons of Israel, Ishmael was inspired by Allah to stay in Arabia "Mekkah", and been sent to them as a Prophet, just like Jacob with sons if Israel.

[163] We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Nuh and the Messengers after him: We sent inspiration to Ibrahim, Isma'il, Ishaq, Ya'qub, and the Tribes, to 'Isa, Ayyub, Yunus, Harun, and Sulaiman, and to Dawud We gave the Psalms. (Quran 4:163)

That's because Allah was sending prophets to all nations.

[36] For We assuredly sent amongst every People a Messenger, (with the Command), "Serve Allah, and eschew Evil": of the people were some whom Allah guided, and some on whom Error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth). (Quran 16:36)

You might check this link below as well:
Islamic view of Ishmael - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Peace be upon you.

Sorry, for taking so long to get back to you, tashaN.

And thank you for providing those quotes (4:163 and 16:36).

However, I was looking for something that was more specifics to Ishmael. The 4:163 is just a generalisation that all prophets receive divine inspiration/revelation. Specifics, as in specific revelations that he received, miracles he had performed...anything that may showed that he was a prophet/messenger.

For example, Abraham was given a covenant that his descendants and nations would be many, and that one line (Issac's and Jacob's) would receive Canaan as their land, and he receive this covenant through direct communication with God. The Genesis actually narrated Abraham's life.

We know from the Tanakh and Bible of what each prophet in the Qur'an's list have provided that showed they were prophets (though I would have to disagree on David and Solomon "prophets", but I rather not go into that right now.)

Ishmael's and his descendants' future were revealed in the Genesis to Abraham and Hagar, but not to Ishmael himself. I was hoping that would be something more than the quotes you have given me.

For you, and other Muslims, you would have no doubt about Ishmael's prophethood.

But for someone like me, I would like a lot more concrete than just his name being listed with other prophets, and generalisation that he receive "inspiration" like all other prophets. Your quote provide only an example that his list, but not an example of what he did to deserved to be called prophet.

That's the whole reason why I've started this topic in the 1st place. To find out what deeds that Ishmael makes him a prophet. I gave a number of examples, including some about Ishmael's mother, which make her female prophet, more so than him.

 

[TashaN]

Sorry, for taking so long to get back to you, tashaN.

And thank you for providing those quotes (4:163 and 16:36).

However, I was looking for something that was more specifics to Ishmael. The 4:163 is just a generalisation that all prophets receive divine inspiration/revelation. Specifics, as in specific revelations that he received, miracles he had performed...anything that may showed that he was a prophet/messenger.

it's not about Ishmael only, if you have noticed, but many other prophets been mentioned by name without further details. That's because their main goal was to ask people to worship the one true God, Allah, and no one else. The stories in the Quran about Prophets, which Allah have mentioned in details are there to set an example for us, and to show us some moral stories we might gain from them.

That's because Allah will never ask us about what other people did in the past, but will certainly ask us about ourselves. It's not of our concern to know who did what and why "in details" as it appear to be the case in the bible.

The Quran was sent to all people till the day of judgment so it wouldn't be useful if we would have there the details of the lives of ALL prophets because they are Allah's messengers, not vice versa. He just asked them to deliver the message to people and as God, he wouldn't spend a book like the Quran tellinfg us who said what and why in boring details because it will be a distraction from the "goal" of the message. The Quran is not a story book, if you got what i mean.

Though i understand your frustration when you compare the bible with the Quran because the bible contain more details but i already have explained to you why the Quran is constructed in the way you see.

For example, Abraham was given a covenant that his descendants and nations would be many, and that one line (Issac's and Jacob's) would receive Canaan as their land, and he receive this covenant through direct communication with God. The Genesis actually narrated Abraham's life.

We know from the Tanakh and Bible of what each prophet in the Qur'an's list have provided that showed they were prophets (though I would have to disagree on David and Solomon "prophets", but I rather not go into that right now.)

Ishmael's and his descendants' future were revealed in the Genesis to Abraham and Hagar, but not to Ishmael himself. I was hoping that would be something more than the quotes you have given me.

For you, and other Muslims, you would have no doubt about Ishmael's prophethood.

But for someone like me, I would like a lot more concrete than just his name being listed with other prophets, and generalisation that he receive "inspiration" like all other prophets. Your quote provide only an example that his list, but not an example of what he did to deserved to be called prophet.

That's the whole reason why I've started this topic in the 1st place. To find out what deeds that Ishmael makes him a prophet. I gave a number of examples, including some about Ishmael's mother, which make her female prophet, more so than him.

You are trying to double check some of the information being claimed in the Quran through the bible, but i think that effort wouldn't be fruitfull unless you are knowledgable of the original writing of Torah, Injil, etc. You can't simply flip pages through the Quran and then do cross checking with the Bible. It will not work that way.

You really want to know why Ishamel is not mentioned as a Prophet there?

That's because some people--who came later on--thought that Isaac should have been the one tested to be slaughtered by his father, not Ishamel.

Got it now?

Do you want me to prove that it was Ishamel, not Isaac?

From: jews » Blog Archive » Isaac or Ishmael to be Sacrificed ?

As you know, Kedar is a descendent of Ishmael {Genesis 25:13}, and Ishmael is the the base for the Family Tree of Prophet Muhammad through Kedar.


An important Fact that I would like you to observe now is how the scribes switched names to illegitimize Ishmael.


The scribes and commentators say that Ishmael is not a legitimate son of Abraham and therefore the covenant was only with Isaac.


Now I will show you in the Scripture that it was Really Ishmael who was to be sacrificed and the covenant was first done with Ishmael and Ishmael was a legitimate son of Abraham even after Abraham’s death.


1. The covenant was first made with Abraham and Ishmael;
Genesis 17:10 This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.


Genesis 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.


Note:-


2. It was really Ishmael and not Isaac who was going to be sacrificed and the Jewish scribes because of vanity, switched the names;


Genesis 16:16 “and Abram [is] a son of eighty and six years in Hagar’s bearing Ishmael to Abram.”


Who’s son? Abraham’s “son”. Now as far as the sacrifice is concerned, Genesis 17:24 “Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.”


That makes Abraham’s son Ishmael 13, how old is Isaac at this time? Genesis 21:5 “Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him.”
that means during the circumcision/sacrifice, Abraham’s only “begotten” son is Ishmael and not Isaac as the Bible says.


KJV Hebrews 11:17 “By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,”
Therefore we see that Isaac was not the only son, as a matter of fact, Isaac was not even born yet and Abraham’s Only begotten son was Ishmael. Therefore further confirming the Legitimacy of Prophet Muhammad which God says I will make great Nations from Ishmael.


Genesis 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.


3. Ishmael was a legitimate son even after Abraham died;
Genesis 16:3 “And Sarai Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.”


Genesis 25:9 “Then his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him (Abraham) in *the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, facing Mamre,”
Genesis 25:12 “Now these are the records of the generations of *Ishmael, Abraham’s son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah’s maid, bore to Abraham;”

I hope that was clear enough.

You see, i didn't want to come with you to this road of trying to prove that there are some stuff you read in the bible which are not accurate, that's why we Muslims kept saying to you that you can ask us anything you want about the Quran, but not the Bible, because there are many differences between them as you can see above.

Take this topic below as a bonus.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/19750-mohamed-pbuh-bible.html

 

[gnostic]

it's not about Ishmael only, if you have noticed, but many other prophets been mentioned by name without further details. That's because their main goal was to ask people to worship the one true God, Allah, and no one else.

Yes, you're right that there a number of prophets that appeared in the tanakh/bible just as names only or not much detail about their lives.

However the important prophets have at least some details about their lives and their deeds of what make them prophets.

And in Islam, Ishmael is supposed to be an important prophet, but not enough for even in Islamic scripture to record Ishmael's deeds as a prophet.

There are more about the deed of Ishmael's mother in the Hebrew scripture than there are about Ishmael himself in the Islamic scripture, which sort of beg the question of status as a prophet. There more about Solomon's deeds than there is about Ishmael in the Qur'an, and yet the king is of Israel's line, not Ishmael's.

You are trying to double check some of the information being claimed in the Quran through the bible, but i think that effort wouldn't be fruitfull unless you are knowledgable of the original writing of Torah, Injil, etc. You can't simply flip pages through the Quran and then do cross checking with the Bible. It will not work that way.

Of course, the Qur'an is different to the bible, but the Tanakh/Torah and the Bible are legitimate sources of the Abrahamic religions just as the Qur'an. If you ignore one without the other, then you are ignoring the knowledge that are to be gained.

I have presented what I know from the Hebrew scriptures to you (and others), I was hoping that you or someone else could provide me with similar knowledge from the Qur'an that either agree or disagree with stance.

I think I did well in providing the sources that supported my stance, in regards to Ishmael. You have done your parts too, but I still think there is a big hole about Ishmael in both Hebrew/Islamic sources that support him as a prophet.

It may say that he has inspiration of the prophet, but what was in those inspirations? Were there revelation of some sort? Some divine miracles he was said to perform? Without records of these, the claim to be a prophet would be tenuous at best.

If we were to present our cases about Ishmael's role as a prophet in academic lecture, I don't think you could win many supports from the listeners with a simple verse like 4:163, because it is not substantial enough. And with such debate in lecture, you would need all the sources that you can provide, and that would mean using Tanakh/Bible as well as the Qur'an or other Islamic writings. You don't use one source to prove your point, you must use as many as there are available.

 

[TashaN]

And in Islam, Ishmael is supposed to be an important prophet, but not enough for even in Islamic scripture to record Ishmael's deeds as a prophet.

He is just like any other prophet. The center here is the message and the messenger, in the Quran, not the previous prophets.

Good luck in your research work. I think i'm done here.