Ishmael is not a prophet

[ProudMuslim]

This is a very weak argument. I don't see why it would have anything to to do with Krishna and Buddha.

It is only weak because you dont have anything to say about it. The fact is Mr. Smart, The Bible speak about nations and humans from the start of the creation. Don't ever try to even compare the Qur'an with the Bible in that perspective. We don't claim all the stories related to human beings since the start of the universe is mentioned in our holy book.

Also the Buddha, or Siddhārtha Gautama flourished in the late 6th century and early 5th century BCE, a historical and legendary figure...more real than I can say about Abraham, Ishmael and Issac...so what could be possible daft reason would Moses even know of the Buddha?

The bible speaks about creation from the start, so why not include great prophets of other nations (if they were indeed prophets)?

Why would you think that Moses possible know what go on in India?

Just like he (PBUH) knew everything about creation since Adam! Isn't that what Genesis is about.

Of course, the Hebrew and Christian scriptures would ignore other religious figures around the world, but doesn't mean they don't exist in other cultures. The vast distance of geographical locations would have prevented people knowing each other religions.

Please look at the above reply.

Do you think that Moses' Exodus took him all the way to India?

No, but very absurd question.

I know that your prophet and Muslims like to exaggerate, but your illogic is quite staggering.

You don't know prophet Muhammed, your sickness with Islam is your personal issue so deal with it.

The Buddha or Siddhārtha Gautama, lived about a thousand years before Muhammad, and yet he wrote nothing of him.

I'm sure your christian background pushes you to defend your forefathers belief and try to attach every stupid thing about it to Islam in the name of "Abrahamic faith". Islam focused on the prophets descended from Abraham (PBUH) but did not eliminate the idea that other messengers and prophets were sent to nation throughout history.

Do Muhammad write of anything about the Buddha?

Nope, but we don't have anything about Prophet Daniel, Samuel and many others that are mentioned in the Bible itself. But i need to remind you again that Qur'an mentioned specific prophets/messengers but didn't say those mentioned ones are the only ones. Do you get it, or still confused?

If Muhammad didn't write anything of either religious figure, why would Moses?

LOL, let's just say that Bible is almost 5 times bigger than the Qur'an and it includes stories of nations and names of prophets that are not mentioned at all in the Qur'an which suffice with the notion that YES other prophets and messengers were sent to nations throughout history but didn't start naming them.

You're quite daft.

And you live in a pathetic confusing state of mind.

Bahá'u'lláh lived in the 19th century. The earliest Islamic empire to conquer India was in late Middle Ages. During the centuries they have been in India, they would have known the Hindu and Buddhist religions by then. By Bahá'u'lláh's time, he would have these non-Islamic religious figures been well-known to the Bahá'í.

So? He could have not listed them as prophets and follow the footpaths previous religions, right?

And why is Ishmael (PBUH) is also a prophet to Bahai's? Why didn't they go with the Judeo-Christian scriptures and deny his prophethood?

What does the Bahá'í Faith have anything to do with Ishmael being a prophet?

Don't they believe in the prophethood of Ishmael as well?

Tell me, Proud Muslim.

Would Muhammad know of any the Mayan deities of his time?

Or do you think the Olmec or Mayan civilisation would know about Ishmael or Muhammad?

Your introduction of the Bahá'í Faith into the whole debate about Ishmael has nothing to do with the thread, except perhaps trying to sidetrack me.

Are you trying to sidetrack me? Are you trying to divert me from the current thread?

Are you going to complain and whine about sidetracking you everytime you cannot have the answers to my questions which are related to this lame topic.

Well, the Qur'an do have the verse, where men are stronger, hence he is the master, so she must obey him.

No where in the Qur'an that says because a man is a stronger therefore he is a master. You are in serious state of confusion.You need to remove Judeo-Christian scriptures from your head when you want to talk about Islam.

Islam gave more responsibilities to the man and only if he perform them all, he will be have the right to lead his home, if he doesn't then he cannot become the leader. The woman is not required to carry many responsibilities. But when it comes to commandments and punishments, they are equal for both the men and women.

What kind of a master will have equal punishment to his slave? Again i think this whole Master vs Slave scenario is derived from the Judeo-Christian scripures and not from the Quran, see the below for more information.

Do you want me to say Judaism and Christianity are misogynist and sexist religions?

Ok, they (Judaism and Christianity) are misogynist and sexist religions, just like Islam. I have no problem thinking that many of teachings and customs are stupidly archaic.

Wrong Islam is nothing like Judeo-Christian teachings that dictate:

• it was Eve fault that lead us human to be cursed and kicked out from heaven
• that woman is filthier than men so when she give birth to a girl she is considered impure for double the period of that given to a woman who give birth to a boy
• that a woman even if she was single and slept with a married man should face stonning to death but if a single man slept with a married woman he will not face death
• that raped woman must marry her rapist
• that women dont inherit (sisters, mothers cant inherit; daughters can inherit if their parents dont have sons)
• that widow women must marry their husband's brothers to keep the family name
• that women cannot initiate divorce
• that women scarf is a sign of her subjugation to men

There isn't one single punishment stated in the Qur'an that is not equally applied on men and women.

Judaism is a stupid religion. And so is Christianity. Does that make you feel better?

I don't give a damn about your stance on Judaism or Christianity or even Islam. I know you have weird fixation on Islam but again that is your personal issue. However, i am interested in getting your facts straight about Islam when you spout ridiculous accusations.

Do you want me to show respect for religions that I know are stupid, archaic and misogynist?

Nope, i don't have respect either for such beliefs. Just like i dont have respect for any system or movement that works on eliminating the natural difference between a woman and a man.

Muslims have been making lame interpretations of their own Qur'an in regards to the so-called scientific miracle in that modern science prove the Qur'an. And if I called it stupid, because there are no better words to describe their attempts of twisting the context of sacred book to make it seem "scientific", is nothing more than propaganda. Do you want me to respect such claims as being valid?

Do you want me to respect your and other athiests lame *** response to Muslims claims as being valid?

We are already going in circle.

 

[ProudMuslim]

Why don't we discuss here?

Well i am hoping for Jews or Christians to answer your question since they have the two criteria of prophethood.

But i think also Bush claimed that God spoke to him/inspired to him (to attack countries), does that mean he is considered a prophet in your part of the world where Judeo-Christian belief dominate your way of thinking?

If you read the Genesis, only ONCE did the word "prophet" was ever used (Genesis 20). Your scripture don't deny that Adam, Noah, Isaac and Jacob to be prophets, and yet none once were they ever called "prophet" in Genesis.

and....?

With that in mind, do the Hebrew scriptures require to say "prophet" next to Hagar's name for her to be a prophetess?

Yes, specially when their teachings have low opinion of women (e.g. Eve "sin", filthier, and all i have mentioned previously).

The requirement of being prophet is quite clear. A revelation revealed by a divine being or one of his agents (ie. angel).

Nope, there are many signs of prophethood in which revelation is a sign of it.

If it is suitable for Muhammad being called a prophet, then why not Hagar? An angel or God went to Hagar twice. Don't that fit the requirement?

Nope again, there are 45 signs in Islam for prophethood not one only. A vision into the future is considered a sign of prophethood and many people (even now) might experience this strange thing through a dream or something, now that does not make them a prophet because there are many signs of prophethood before you can be called a prophet. Example would be you need to be supported by miracles, speak and propogate message of God, prove your message, etc.

Someone here, said that requirement of being "prophet" is that the person to be "male". (Was it you? I don't remember.) Why?

It is the lamest excuse.

It is not requirement, it is a fact that God has chosen men for that role. What i have said is there are reasons of why a woman couldn't carry that role in which you didn't refute.

So you don't consider the message to Hagar in regard about her and her son's future descendants as not a miracle.

I don't consider a divine message as a miracle. Having said that, i don't know if Hagar really recieved any divine message. As far as i know, it was Abraham (PBUH) who recieved the divine messages.

Then the Ishmaelites are not Arabs, and Muhammad is not descendant of Ishmael.

What are you talking about?? What..how did you even come up with this conclusion?

What single miracle could you find in the Genesis that Ishmael had performed?

Why do i care what Genesis said about Ishmael (PBUH)? I am still baffled by your confused approach. I am a Muslim, i follow the Qur'an and hence i will go back to the Qur'an to prove if he (PBUH) had any miracle.

All he did was born, get banished, lived in the wilderness, and return for his father's burial. I don't see any miracle in there. Do you?

This is a brief Islamic take on Ishmael seperation from his father and life in the desert:

Whereas the Muslim traditions say that Prophet Abraham left Lady Hagar in the desert area of Makkah as a result of a divine order, and not an order of Abraham’s first wife, Lady Sarah. It speaks of the way God made a spring to gush forth in the desert miraculously, for the thirsting mother and child, when Hagar ran to and fro looking for water. That well, called Zamzam remains a miracle to this day, yielding drinking water in the desert to the pilgrims who throng to Makkah to perform Hajj, one of the rites of which is to retrace the steps of Hagar running between the mountains Safa and Marwa.

The wisdom behind this divine order is stated in the Qur’an through the words of Abraham when he says what means:

*{O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer: so fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits: so that they may give thanks.}* (Ibrahim 14:37)​

​

All I think you have done, is weakened Ishmael's position as being a prophet. He received no revelation, and he performed no miracle.

How did i weaken his position? The man has no value in your Judeo-Christian scriptures, we honor him in Islam.

The only reason that you don't feel "empower" or feel "strong" is because you let your archaic religion and the so-called devout Muslims to continue to dictate how you live your life, to feel weak and helpless.

Your comments are still laughable, do you know why? What do you know about me Gnostic? How am i helpess or weak? I am educated with postgraduate degree, studied in one of the most prestigious universities, hold senior position, and make good money (alhamdulilah). Do you know why? because "Education is mandatory for every Muslim man and woman". Also the prophet mUhammed (PBUH) said: "When the son of Aadam dies, all his good deeds cease except for three: charity with a continuous effect, beneficial knowledge, and a righteous son (or daughter) who prays for him. (or her)". Can i think of any other religion that advances my benefit and making it a mandatory? Can i feel weak or helpess with the rights i was given? No.
On the contrary, Islam honored women and encouraged them to advance their level.

Any attempts to subjugate me and deprive my rights as a woman through enslaving me or masculinizing me won't work and will never shake my confidence in being a Muslim and a woman.

 

[tufmek]

Not when the later Book considers the previous one as altered! If we attached the Tanakh to our Qur'an then yes you can question the inconsistency but we don't. From the beginning we have said, yes we believe the Torah and Gospels were from God but also said they were subject to human error and alterations.

well yea you would say that, otherwise who needs Qu'ran?

imagine you are a Jew or Christian and you are approached by Muhammad and he tells you I Am a messenger of G-D and he says or wants from you this or that. your reaction would be I already know what G-D wants from me (Tanakh or Bible). it would be logical for Muhammad to say those books were altered by man, and they are wrong I have the correct massage, otherwise who would believe him?.

 

[ProudMuslim]

well yea you would say that, otherwise who needs Qu'ran?

imagine you are a Jew or Christian and you are approached by Muhammad and he tells you I Am a messenger of G-D and he says or wants from you this or that. your reaction would be I already know what G-D wants from me (Tanakh or Bible). it would be logical for Muhammad to say those books were altered by man, and they are wrong I have the correct massage, otherwise who would believe him?.

Your argument can been refuted using Christianity as an example. The Christians believe in Jesus Christ (PBUH) as the Messiah and have their own divine book which are the Gospels and yet they attach their interpretation of the Tanakh with their holy book and called it 'The Bible'. Just because they attached the Tanakh to their holy book did not mean they followed Mosaic laws or its teachings. Using your argument Muhammed (PBUH) could have attached the Tanakh, Gospels and the Quran all in one book and maybe call it 'The Complete Divine Trilogy' and would still attract followers just like Christianity. And just like the Gospels purpose is to talk about Jesus (PBUH) life and teachings, the Qur'an will talk about Muhammed (PBUH) life and teachings. Doing that is not difficult at all.

 

[tufmek]

Your argument can been refuted using Christianity as an example. The Christians believe in Jesus Christ (PBUH) as the Messiah and have their own divine book which are the Gospels and yet they attach their interpretation of the Tanakh with their holy book and called it 'The Bible'. Just because they attached the Tanakh to their holy book did not mean they followed Mosaic laws or its teachings. Using your argument Muhammed (PBUH) could have attached the Tanakh, Gospels and the Quran all in one book and maybe call it 'The Complete Divine Trilogy' and would still attract followers just like Christianity. And just like the Gospels purpose is to talk about Jesus (PBUH) life and teachings, the Qur'an will talk about Muhammed (PBUH) life and teachings. Doing that is not difficult at all.

well almost the same thing as I was trying to tell you. I can make same claims to Jesus also as to Muhammad hat the idea was taken from Tanakh.

 

[ProudMuslim]

well almost the same thing as I was trying to tell you. I can make same claims to Jesus also as to Muhammad hat the idea was taken from Tanakh.

How is it the same? One group is attaching the Tanakh (or better to say their interpretation of the Tanakh) to their holy book, and the other does not. One group is claiming that they believe in every word written in the Tanakh but do not follow its laws, and the other group does not believe in the infallibility of the Tanakh and has its seperate Sharia Laws which are very similar to the Halaka.

But this is the whole point. Muhammed (PBUH) did not pretend that Islam is a new religion but that he is the awaited prophet and his message is to restore the message that was propagated by the previous messengers of God. So yes i totally agree that Islam is very similar to Judaism but i don't think the same applies to Christianity.

 

[tufmek]

How is it the same? One group is attaching the Tanakh (or better to say their interpretation of the Tanakh) to their holy book, and the other does not. One group is claiming that they believe in every word written in the Tanakh but do not follow its laws, and the other group does not believe in the infallibility of the Tanakh and has its seperate Sharia Laws which are very similar to the Halaka.

But this is the whole point. Muhammed (PBUH) did not pretend that Islam is a new religion but that he is the awaited prophet and his message is to restore the message that was propagated by the previous messengers of God. So yes i totally agree that Islam is very similar to Judaism but i don't think the same applies to Christianity.

My friend it is the same. It is the same because just like Christianity took the idea from Judaism using Tanakh same is for Islam you even said it your self sharia laws are very similiar to halakha.

how can a person of different nationality or believe can possibly know what is correct what is not in a book that has nothing to do with him? all of a sudden i can also claim that I know whats better for you without knowing anything about you.

at least Jesus was a Jew who studied Torah in a Yeshiva he would know enough to make a point or even claim his linage to King David, but what did Muhammad know about the Tanakh to prove an error in it? he is not even Jewish to bring the idea of him being a prophet.

Muhammad had to have enough guts to come to Jews and claim that because accordnig to the Tanakh there was only one prophet who was not a jew, balaam the son of peor. numbers 22:5

 

[gnostic]

If there's a silly rule that say women can't be prophets, then if I apply Jews applied the same reasoning as the Muslims do, then couldn't they Jews say that no other people except those with Jacob's ancestry may become prophets, hence all Muslims and non-Jewish Christians can never fir the requirement of becoming prophets?

 

[gnostic]

Signs of prophethood in Islam are 45, not only two which you have mentioned.

45 what? I am not clear on this.

45 signs?

You need 45 signs to fit the requirement of prophet.

You're joking, aren't you.

Ok, the only way to do this, is that I want you list ALL 45 signs that Ishmael did.

While you at it, give me 45 signs that Isaac, Jacob and Joshua.

45 signs of Moses, Joshua. And 45 signs of Samuel, David, Solomon, Nathan, Elijah, Michel, Daniel, John the Baptist.

The only you can prove to me about the 45 signs of prophethood is to list all the signs of every single prophet in the bible.

You're making this up. This is the most lamest thing I have ever heard.

 

[ProudMuslim]

45 what? I am not clear on this.

45 signs?

You need 45 signs to fit the requirement of prophet.

You're joking, aren't you.

Ok, the only way to do this, is that I want you list ALL 45 signs that Ishmael did.

While you at it, give me 45 signs that Isaac, Jacob and Joshua.

45 signs of Moses, Joshua. And 45 signs of Samuel, David, Solomon, Nathan, Elijah, Michel, Daniel, John the Baptist.

The only you can prove to me about the 45 signs of prophethood is to list all the signs of every single prophet in the bible.

You're making this up. This is the most lamest thing I have ever heard.

I am not joking and why would i make it up???

We have hadith that will translate as the following "The correct vision into future is a part of 46 parts of prophethood". Personally i can't help you any further listing the remaining parts but maybe someone with deeper knowledge about this topic will help better.

Just so you know its not 45, but 46 and its not 'signs' but 'parts' whatever the difference is.

 

[ProudMuslim]

If there's a silly rule that say women can't be prophets, then if I apply Jews applied the same reasoning as the Muslims do, then couldn't they Jews say that no other people except those with Jacob's ancestry may become prophets, hence all Muslims and non-Jewish Christians can never fir the requirement of becoming prophets?

Yes that if we were to follow Jewish sayings only and assume that God will only restrict prophets to Israelis and Middle East only ignoring the rest of the world.

The reasoning i have given has nothing to do with "Because Jews believe so we should too", but rather the biological and emotional state of woman that will not be very compatible as a prophet. But hey this is up to God and it is a fact that all messengers and prophets were men, i am only explaining my opinion of why God has chosen men for this role.

 

[gnostic]

Just so you know its not 45, but 46 and its not 'signs' but 'parts' whatever the difference is.

Don't look at me, I am just quoting what you wrote. You wrote 45, so I wrote 45. And do you really think I care how many signs or parts to being a prophet.

You haven't answered my question of "46" signs of Ishmael.

I'd like to want you to list them all 46 that Ishmael did or didn't do.

And list 46 of Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets within the bible, but starting with Ishmael, since you think he is prophet.

So far you have not given a single shred of evidence that Ishmael is a prophet. If he had any personal revelation, you would think the Genesis would even list one vision or one miracle of his.

What great miracles did Ishmael perform?

I have read between the lines in everything regarding to Ishmael in the Genesis, and did not find anything remarkable about him. Maybe God wrote it down in invisible ink, and you can only see with special light?

 

[gnostic]

The reasoning i have given has nothing to do with "Because Jews believe so we should too", but rather the biological and emotional state of woman that will not be very compatible as a prophet. But hey this is up to God and it is a fact that all messengers and prophets were men, i am only explaining my opinion of why God has chosen men for this role.

oh, emotional state...and biological state...discount women from bring prophetesses.

Let me, you can't be prophet because you have boobs and vagina, but you can if you have penis. Now it making a lot of sense.

And the ecstasy that Muhammad experienced didn't make him emotional and giving him homicidal tendency didn't disqualify him, but women's emotional states disqualify them. His assassination and massacre of Jews don't prevent him becoming prophet, but a woman's period or pregnancy do.

What a great quack, your god is.

Remind me not to ever become his prophet.

 

[ProudMuslim]

You haven't answered my question of "46" signs of Ishmael.

I'd like to want you to list them all 46 that Ishmael did or didn't do.

I said i don't know myself what are the 46 parts of prophethood, didn't i?

And list 46 of Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets within the bible, but starting with Ishmael, since you think he is prophet.

not 'think' but 'believe'. Look above for answer.

So far you have not given a single shred of evidence that Ishmael is a prophet. If he had any personal revelation, you would think the Genesis would even list one vision or one miracle of his.

So far you have not proven anything that dismiss Ishmael (PBUH) from the label of a prophet.

Like i have said i follow the Qur'an, not the Tanakh.

What great miracles did Ishmael perform?

Have you read the excerpt i posted about Ishmael (PBUH) before? The Zamzam (holy water). Read please before you repeat the same question.

I have read between the lines in everything regarding to Ishmael in the Genesis, and did not find anything remarkable about him. Maybe God wrote it down in invisible ink, and you can only see with special light?

Good not start reading between the lines in everything regarding Ishmael (PBUH) in holy Qur'an since that book that honors him as a prophet and not Genesis.

 

[ProudMuslim]

Let me, you can't be prophet because you have boobs and vagina, but you can if you have penis. Now it making a lot of sense.

How on earth did you come up with this conclusion? Biologically the woman IS weaker than man, emotionally the woman IS weaker than man. This is accepted as general traits. Why do you even argue about it?

I have explained in a previous post how can a woman back then can control and lead savage random tribes led by men?? In fact given the same situation, a woman cannot lead such men even now. Again this is generally speaking. I am not talking about 'wonder woman' now.

And the ecstasy that Muhammad experienced didn't make him emotional and giving him homicidal tendency didn't disqualify him, but women's emotional states disqualify them.

Exactly if a man who is as brave and strong as Muhammed (PBUH) was subject to emotional state, do you think a woman will handle it better? No.

As for being homicidal, he was far from that. He (PBUH) showed mercy numerous times to his enemy and even respected the differences and only ordered the right punishments for criminals. So basically if a woman was a prophetess, she would still order the same punishments as they were in line with God's commandment.

His assassination and massacre of Jews don't prevent him becoming prophet, but a woman's period or pregnancy do.

First of all dont underestimate the hormonal imbalance the woman go through every month and during pregnancies and birth. Yes that itself disqualify the woman from being a prophet in my honest opinion. Imagine she is going into battle "oh wait i have cramps i can't go", "Prophetess but the you have to save us and emigrate us to somewhere else...wait i think my water is broken i have to give birth first"!.

Now back to your statement, yes it did not prevent him from becoming the prophet because simply he never killed one innocent soul. Read the Qur'an and tell me where exactly do you see Muhammed (PBUH) ordering mass murder, killing the children of his enemy, forcing marriages, forcing women to marry her rapists or issuing harsh punishments for simple mistakes.

Having said that, if we are to believe the Torah word for word, Moses (PBUH) ordered mass murder to many of his enemies including their babies and that did not prevent him from being a prophet.

At the end, God wants them to be men otherwise he would've chosen women for that role. God knows what He is doing.

What a great quack, your god is.

Well that is your God as well, whether you like it or not

 

[gnostic]

Good not start reading between the lines in everything regarding Ishmael (PBUH) in holy Qur'an since that book that honors him as a prophet and not Genesis.

That's all good and well, except that this topic about Ishmael in the Genesis, not in the Qur'an. I know that Qur'an considered him to be a prophet. I have been asking why there are no signs of him ever being a prophet in texts older than the Qur'an.

 

[gnostic]

I still think that women can and have become prophet(-esses), regardless what your Qur'an may say.

Do you seriously that women can't be prophetesses?

Hagar and Sarah have both receive revelations from divine being or angels.

Where in the Qur'an does it say that prevents women in becoming prophetesses?

I have already given two examples in regarding to Hagar (Genesis 16 & 21:9-21). That give her more credential than Ishmael in being a prophet.

And with Sarah (Genesis 18:10-15) where God actually appeared to Abraham about Sarah's pregnancy, and spoke to Sarah herself. It was not mere angel that spoke to her. That itself, make her prophetess.

If you give an example of which verse and I would provide you another to refute your view of the women's disqualification to prophethood.

 

[gnostic]

I still don't understand why you think strength has anything to do with becoming a prophet, and not wisdom?

 

[Azakel]

I still don't understand why you think strength has anything to do with becoming a prophet, and not wisdom?

Because with strength if someone doesn't believe you when you say you're a Prophet you can just pop them one and force them to believe you. So who need Wisdom when you can just beat someone to believe you?

Note: I don't believe strength is all, just the thought that came to mind.

 

[ProudMuslim]

I still don't understand why you think strength has anything to do with becoming a prophet, and not wisdom?

Strength is important for physical protection, but of course wisdom is even more important, for decisions, tactics, approach and many more tools important for prophethood. But like i have said earlier women experience hormonal imbalance each month which can critically affect their wisdom sometimes. What i mean is that it is natural for women to behave emotionally and/or irrationally during perioud, pregnancy and breast-feeding period.

As far as am concerned there isn't a direct passage in the Quran that says women couldn't become prophets, but all the prophets listed are men.

Just for your information there is a difference between a prophet and a messenger, not all prophets were messengers but all messengers were prophet. I am not fully aware of the difference between them so let me get educated on this part and maybe we might even reach a common ground!