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Featured Isaiah 53 Suffering Servant

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by sooda, Apr 9, 2019.

  1. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Ok... those are interesting. I'll spend some time on those.

    Here's my question: why can't mem-shin-chet be translated negatively in some verses? I'm seeing mem-shin-chet as a fundamental transformation. This could be positive as in anointed / consecrated / the messiah. Or it could be negative as in marred / destroyed / a raider.

    In the post you linked to, you propose that the verses are translated in error. Why?

    Edit... Maybe a good example of mem-shin-chet is the English word: raised / razed. You can raise someone up. But also.. If a city is razed... It means it is destroyed. I don't know if that's helpful or not...
     
    #261 dybmh, Apr 13, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
  2. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    List of kings of Israel and Judah.

    Kings of Israel and Judah

    David had been dead for hundreds of years before Isaiah was even born.
     
  3. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    correct... it's shorthand for someone in David's line

    see also "nations shall hope in the root of Jesse"
    the twist being root which suggests also being divine
    another twist also being the ,branch of David ' Is 11:1 suggests fully man... fully God filly man... that resolves birth root and branch
     
  4. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    This raises a few questions:

    How do you define 'fall' and 'man' as used here?

    What and who is Adam, as in 'Adamic'?

    What and who are the aliens you mention?

    What is 'it' that the aliens recreated?
    What 'other things'? An example would be helpful.

    What evidence supports that example?
     
  5. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    David wasn't divine..

    Azariah or Uzziah, King - Amazing Bible Timeline with ...
    https://amazingbibletimeline.com/blog/king-azariah-or-uzziah
    Oct 26, 2014 · Azariah or Uzziah, King. In Hebrew, the name Uzziah or Azariah means “Yahweh is my strength”. This man was noted as one of the Kingdom of Judah ‘s finest kings. Although he ruled at a very young age, he was able to show great wisdom and character as a king, and this was the reason he remained in his reign for as much as 52 years.
     
  6. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Some claim Adam is the ancestor of the Jews.. If you aren't Jewish you came from some other ancestors.. Which makes sense sort of since the Sumerians were already established agriculturists long before Genesis.
     
  7. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Because they should've said 'the anointed one' is prophesied before the destruction across the Tanakh.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  8. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    But unfortunately for the facts, that's not what the story says.

    By no means an uncommon problem with the bible.
     
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  9. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Yes.. they anticipated an anointed warrior king like David who would vanquish their enemies.. and throw the Romans out. NOT divine.

    The Jews didn't always expect a messiah..

    But, they did consider Cyrus of Persia to be a messiah.
     
  10. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Most respectfully: I know that's what you believe. I'll go search thru the thread you posted. Maybe there will be evidence supporting your claim there.

    Sorry to bother you. :oops:
     
  11. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Literally?
    He opened his mouth, sure.
    How about Israel - does it even have a mouth?
    Next if food comes in the mouth does Israel poop?
    My Jesus pooped because he was a human being with a mouth.
    How about Israel?

    Israel of the past had done violence
    It is a justifiable violence - it was an eye for an eye then
    With that circumstances and with the many battles Israel fought
    Isa 53 points not to Israel but to the Lord Jesus Christ
     
  12. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Whether or not Israel has a mouth, the point is that we've established it can't be Jesus since he did open his mouth.

    Except that as we established just above, it can't be him, since he opened his mouth.
     
  13. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    no but he pointed to someone who was

    Interestingly the final passover psalm (Psalm 118) says "the stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone" The builders being the Jewish leaders of the day. The rejected stone is Jesus. The resurrection settling the issue.

    Isn't it interesting the final Passover Psalm has the shortest Psalm before (a 'gospel' invitation to the nations) and the longest Psalm after ( a Psalm about living in the 'spirit of the law' walking in dependence on God to keep it.)
     
  14. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    The former, since it's obviously a figurative statement speaking about the perception of the nations towards Israel in relation to themselves.

    Right. That's the thing that doesn't make sense.
     
  15. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    I would not take that as 'obvious'

    And how do you take 'the stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone' ? from Psalm 118
     
  16. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    That's because you've been trained to ignore the obvious in favor of a pre-determined outcome.

    How about this: Why don't you tell me what that Psalm could possibly be talking about, if we remove Jesus as a possibility. Go ahead and give it a try. I'm sure you've read the Books of Samuel and know a bit about David's life and times. Let's see if you can figure it out.
     
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  17. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    It is the Jewish position that it is Israel
    It it the Christian position that it is Jesus
    It is the Atheist position that it is not Israel not Jesus because what is the Bible to them anyway?

    Israel doesn't have a mouth
    Did violence
    Hence Isaiah 53 disqualifies Israel twice as the suffering servant.
    Is that how Jews interpret their Tanakh?

    upload_2019-4-14_13-53-1.jpeg

    No wonder you kept waiting for the Messiah.
     
  18. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    If we read Psalms 89:19-21 the Lord chooses from among men someone to be his 'Arm'; so that God can 'exalt' that person, and has chosen David...

    In Isaiah 52:13-14 my servant is chosen from among men, and anointed to be above others.

    The 'person' is anointed by God (chosen to be the Messiah); which makes them then glorified (visage) more than any of the sons of Adam.

    Understand the confusion is as some are so busy putting themselves in the text, they've rejected David as the Messiah, and now don't want to accept everyone could be wrong...

    Yet literally WW3 is soon, and after mankind is destroyed, only the Godly will remain or we could question the text properly between us, and bring mankind to know God?
    Continuing the song of Moses in Exodus 15:2, Psalms 118 paraphrases it using the term Yeshua (Salvation), specifically to express that the Salvation of the Lord becomes the Chief Corner Stone...

    Thus to even state could we remove Yeshua (Salvation) from Psalm 118, is missing the point of the Tanakh.

    Psalms 118:14-15 Yah is my strength and song. He has become my salvation. (H3444) (15) The voice of rejoicing and salvation (H3444) is in the tents of the righteous. “The right hand of Yahweh does valiantly.

    Psalms 118:21-22 I will give thanks to you, for you have answered me, and have become my salvation. (H3444) (22) The stone which the builders rejected has become the cornerstone.

    Here is a list of reasons that Israel doesn't qualify as the identity of Isaiah 53:
    • 1: They did not fulfill Isaiah 53:1 which links with Isaiah 28:9-19 (rumor to rumor), and the 'arm of the lord' in Isaiah 52:10 (Yeshuat Eloeinhu) + Psalms 98
    • 2: They were seen as a majestic nation, which was desired by many; they still are presented as a chosen people, which is desired by many.
    • 3: They are not in a depressed state, and not disliked by people; that is a self loathing statement, people like the Jews.
    • 4: They have not carried anyone's suffering or sins; they have been cursed, yet not that anyone acknowledges that, and sees them as accursed.
    • 5: They have not been pierced for anyone's sins, they've not been crushed/put to death/tortured as a sin offering for anyone else.
    • 6: They have not had everyone's sins put on them; tho they might have helped confuse all the sheep, yet they're not directly responsible.
    • 7: They have not been silent as they were slaughtered, neither was it done in the form of a sin offering.
    • 8: The disobedience of the 'people' is the Hebrew people; yet then they can't be the person who is cut off from the land of the living for their sins.
    • 9: They were not put to death with the wicked or rich, and are clearly not free of violence or deceit.
    • 10: They were put to death for part of the plan, yet not as a sin offering.
    • 11: They haven't carried anyone's sins, their knowledge has not lead many to righteousness, neither have they arrived at the light from their actions of being put to death.
    • 12: They haven't got an inheritance to share with the strong, they've not continued teaching the things of God until death, and then acted as an intercessor for people's sins.
    Isaiah 5:3 “Now, inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, please judge between me and my vineyard.

    Like we've already discussed, denying the Lord, Law, Messiah, just to make Israel a chosen nation above all of that; means everyone will get nothing according to the Tanakh.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #278 wizanda, Apr 14, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
  19. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Most respectfully I'm always learning as well, so on a closer look of what you've just hypothesized, that there is good and bad anointing, which could be a logical idea...

    Did another word search of M-SH-CH-T משׁחת, and more inclined to see all of them as 'anointing' in someway (smothered), and we're not understanding the contexts properly.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #279 wizanda, Apr 14, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
  20. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    That's a much shorter list.

    I finished going through all 160. It was actually a fun learning exercise. I'm going to type it up. If you have time, I would appreciate your feedback.

    Btw, What do you make of Psalms 20:6?

    Also, instead of smothered, I was thinking of something more like a tsunami.. like a wave of destruction... what do u think?
     
    #280 dybmh, Apr 14, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
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