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Is Trump Still Proud of Shutting Down the Government?

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
What did Trump mean when he said during the December 11 meeting with Pelosi and Schumer at the White House, “I will take the mantle. I will shut it down, I’m not going to blame you for it" Trump reverses, says Dems to blame for shutdown

Emblematic of his perpetual dishonesty, only a couple of days later he was blaming Democrats for the shutdown.

But regardless of who Trump blames, various polls show that Americans blame Trump and the GOP. For instance:

American voters support 63 - 30 percent a Democratic proposal to reopen parts of the government that do not involve border security while negotiating funding for the Wall, according to a Quinnipiac University National Poll released today. Every party, gender, education, age and racial group supports this idea except Republicans, who are opposed 52 - 39 percent.

Voters oppose 63 - 32 percent shutting down the government to force funding for the Wall, the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University National Poll finds. Again, Republicans are the only listed group supporting the shutdown, 67 - 24 percent.

The GOP is losing the battle as 56 percent of American voters say President Donald Trump and Republicans in Congress are responsible for the shutdown, while 36 percent say Democrats are responsible.

Voters remain solidly opposed to a wall on the Mexican border, 55 - 43 percent, and reject every argument for the Wall. The 55 - 43 percent opposition compares to 54 - 43 percent opposition in a December 18 survey, just before the partial government shutdown.

American voters are negative in every question about the wall, saying:
  • 59 - 40 percent that it is not a good use of taxpayer dollars;
  • 55 - 43 percent that the wall would not make the U.S. safer;
  • 59 - 40 percent that the wall is not necessary to protect the border;
  • 52 percent say the wall is against American values as 41 percent say the wall is consistent with American values.
There is a security crisis along the Mexican border, American voters say 54 - 43 percent, and voters say 68 - 26 percent there is a humanitarian crisis.​


QU Poll Release Detail

Obviously the situation will only continue to deteriorate as long as the government is shutdown. For instance, within a couple of weeks farmers throughout much of the country will need to begin taking out loans through the USDA to plant crops, and also begin to contract to sell their anticipated harvest. But the USDA is closed.

Perhaps we should start wagering on when Trump and the GOP will lead the US and the into utter disintegration -- all over a stupid bigoted border wall?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Trump can't win this one. The closest he can come to winning is probably to declare a national emergency and drain money from disaster relief or the military to pay for the wall. That's likely to go over like a lead balloon with most of the voters. In other words, he can't really win this one.

He had a deal cut and ready to sign that would have saved him the disgrace of a shutdown, but then he backed out of it after listening to Rush Limbaugh and the Fox News hosts making fun of him. What a loser!
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Trump can't win this one. The closest he can come to winning is probably to declare a national emergency and drain money from disaster relief or the military to pay for the wall. That's likely to go over like a lead balloon with most of the voters. In other words, he can't really win this one.

He had a deal cut and ready to sign that would have saved him the disgrace of a shutdown, but then he backed out of it after listening to Rush Limbaugh and the Fox News hosts making fun of him. What a loser!

Even that would be likely met with opposition. There would be lawsuits on whether it was an actual emergency or if it was misappropriation of funds:

Dems eye legal challenge as Trump threatens national emergency
 

Misunderstood

Active Member
Nice to see you Nous, however it looks like we may be on different sides of the issue again. But I really do not have the energy to really go after this right now.

Not that I am saying I am in support or in opposition of the wall, I don't really care. But payroll was this last Friday and it was missed. A lot of good people are without a pay check now and have bills to pay. My household is down one paycheck and even thought, I just sent out $700 today to help someone cover rent, they have 3 kids and the wife will not be getting her paycheck. Her husband is not making anything because the government has crab season shut down since December 1st, so he can't work either, so they are making nothing. I feel they are in worse shape than I am, so I feel I will try to help with what I can.

Anyway, I do not feel Trump will back down, I don't know maybe he doesn't care, but he did make a campaign promise I feel he intents to keep in someway. So instead of worrying about who will win or can't win, I wish someone would try to figure this out, and do what is best for the country. I think I read somewhere the shut down so far has cost the county more than the wall, so who is winning here anyway. I don't think anybody is.

I decided to add a little levity, just because.
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
In most situations, that things even reached this point would be grounds for wondering if the POTUS has gone insane.

It is still. But we have gotten used to it.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Perhaps we should start wagering on when Trump and the GOP will lead the US and the into utter disintegration -- all over a stupid bigoted border wall?

A hidden benefit to a prolonged and painful governmental shutdown would be to re-educate the American people about what their government is and does for them. After decades of being told things such as that the nine scariest words are “I'm from the government, and I'm here to help” or that government should be shrunk "to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub," many have been trained to view government as the enemy - a bloated, lumbering, inefficient, ham-handed bull in a china shop incapable of doing anything well.

With six months of shutdown, they can see firsthand what the Republican vision for them would be like.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
A hidden benefit to a prolonged and painful governmental shutdown would be to re-educate the American people about what their government is and does for them. After decades of being told things such as that the nine scariest words are “I'm from the government, and I'm here to help” or that government should be shrunk "to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub," many have been trained to view government as the enemy - a bloated, lumbering, inefficient, ham-handed bull in a china shop incapable of doing anything well.

With six months of shutdown, they can see firsthand what the Republican vision for them would be like.

I fear conservative voters would still find some rationalization to insist that the government doesn't do a thing for them. If they can believe Trump is presidential material, they can believe anything. But more objective and fair minded people, such as independent voters, might very well benefit from your point.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
The partial government shut down has gone on long enough. The Democrats now are simply too staunchly opposed to an effective border security barrier system. I'd like to see continuing resolutions to reopen the government for a few weeks while negotiations take place in Congress regarding the funding of an effective border security barrier system Also, continuing resolutions will fairly compensate government workers who did not get their pay checks last week.

If Congress fails in its duty to appropriate funding for an effective border security barrier system, then as a last resort, a national emergency should be declared by the POTUS.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Nice to see you Nous
Thank you. Good to hear from you, too.
Not that I am saying I am in support or in opposition of the wall, I don't really care. But payroll was this last Friday and it was missed.

A lot of good people are without a pay check now and have bills to pay. My household is down one paycheck and even thought, I just sent out $700 today to help someone cover rent, they have 3 kids and the wife will not be getting her paycheck. Her husband is not making anything because the government has crab season shut down since December 1st, so he can't work either, so they are making nothing. I feel they are in worse shape than I am, so I feel I will try to help with what I can.
Good for you. It's distressing to me that upstanding, hardworking people are put into such situations merely because of the actions of a President who is PROUD to cause innocent people to suffer, just so he can fulfill a campaign promise.
Anyway
, I do not feel Trump will back down, I don't know maybe he doesn't care, but he did make a campaign promise I feel he intents to keep in someway. So instead of worrying about who will win or can't win, I wish someone would try to figure this out, and do what is best for the country. I think I read somewhere the shut down so far has cost the county more than the wall, so who is winning here anyway. I don't think anybody is.

How does one negotiate with someone who is so inconstant and unreliable that he literally says one thing one minute and just the opposite the next?

That's apparently what he did with Pence, when he negotiated a compromise with Congress to provide ~$2 billion+ for border security then Trump rejected the deal. This is in addition to the multitude of documented cases of Trump's rapid-fire self-contradictions and contradictions with facts.

Is it rational for Congress to provide a huge amount of money for a project just so an unpopular President can fulfill a campaign promise, a project that most Americans disapprove of and view as ineffective to solve problems?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
A hidden benefit to a prolonged and painful governmental shutdown would be to re-educate the American people about what their government is and does for them. After decades of being told things such as that the nine scariest words are “I'm from the government, and I'm here to help” or that government should be shrunk "to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub," many have been trained to view government as the enemy - a bloated, lumbering, inefficient, ham-handed bull in a china shop incapable of doing anything well.

With six months of shutdown, they can see firsthand what the Republican vision for them would be like.
The shutdown is a hard way to learn an easy lesson that functioning adults should already know.

The fact is I do not believe that the US or the world can survive a 6-month shutdown of the federal government. I believe the world will be one big s-hole in 6 months of US government shutdown.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
The partial government shut down has gone on long enough. The Democrats now are simply too staunchly opposed to an effective border security barrier system.

Honest question: do you actually believe in that?

No one who has the proper qualifications to opine seems to agree.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The partial government shut down has gone on long enough. The Democrats now are simply too staunchly opposed to an effective border security barrier system.
See the poll results quoted in the OP. The majority of Americans do not consider Trump's border wall an effective solution to any problem.

What did Trump mean in the December 11 meeting when he said that he will take responsibility for the shutdown, that he will not blame Democrats for it?

How does one negotiate with someone who is so inconstant and unreliable that he literally says one thing one minute and just the opposite the next?

That's apparently what he did with Pence, when he negotiated a compromise with Congress to provide ~$2 billion+ for border security then Trump rejected the deal. This is in addition to the multitude of documented cases of Trump's rapid-fire self-contradictions and contradictions with facts.

Is it rational for Congress to provide a huge amount of money for a project just so an unpopular President can fulfill a campaign promise, a project that most Americans disapprove of and view as ineffective to solve problems?
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Trump will continue holding Americans hostage in the shut down as long as conservative radio and Fox which serve his base and a Republican congress with no intestinal fortitude egg him on. Those who are most vulnerable don't enter Trump's calculations.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Is it rational for Congress to provide a huge amount of money for a project just so an unpopular President can fulfill a campaign promise, a project that most Americans disapprove of and view as ineffective to solve problems?
The other thing too is that this is a manufactured crisis. If the border wall really was his priority, he could have got the funding in the 2 years he had a Republican House.

I'm still trying to figure out whether this whole thing is either:

- trying to exert dominance over the new Democratic House... getting them to submit to him to set the tone for the next 2 years, or

- an attempt to distract from what's going on with the Mueller investigation and the Manafort trial.

Neither would surprise me.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Trump will continue holding Americans hostage in the shut down as long as conservative radio and Fox which serve his base and a Republican congress with no intestinal fortitude egg him on. Those who are most vulnerable don't enter Trump's calculations.
Both of your sentences make excellent, sad and troubling points.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The other thing too is that this is a manufactured crisis. If the border wall really was his priority, he could have got the funding in the 2 years he had a Republican House.
Yeah. The midterm election results have made him nervous about his own re-election prospects, and his single-digit approval ratings are finally sinking in, so he has lashed out.

I'm still trying to figure out whether this whole thing is either:

- trying to exert dominance over the new Democratic House... getting them to submit to him to set the tone for the next 2 years, or

- an attempt to distract from what's going on with the Mueller investigation and the Manafort trial.

Neither would surprise me.
I'd say it's a lot of both.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Perhaps we should start wagering on when Trump and the GOP will lead the US and the into utter disintegration -- all over a stupid bigoted border wall?

I'm sure the sky is falling with the fed shut down. Ohh, wait, it's been shut down for awhile... I'm haven't noticed. :D

I think the only areas that are problematic are social security, welfare, and other things of that nature. The rest, you can probably deal without for a certain period of time.

Anyway, there is a Secure Fence Act, since that was passed it seems reasonable to ask for the funds to be allocated.
 

Misunderstood

Active Member
How does one negotiate with someone who is so inconstant and unreliable that he literally says one thing one minute and just the opposite the next?

That's apparently what he did with Pence, when he negotiated a compromise with Congress to provide ~$2 billion+ for border security then Trump rejected the deal. This is in addition to the multitude of documented cases of Trump's rapid-fire self-contradictions and contradictions with facts.

Is it rational for Congress to provide a huge amount of money for a project just so an unpopular President can fulfill a campaign promise, a project that most Americans disapprove of and view as ineffective to solve problems?

I don't know. Do you have any ideas? But, I do not feel he is going to give in soon unless he gets something, and I do not know what that something is that he will take in a compromise. All I know is that everyone was hoping something would happen before Friday or shortly there after, and were very disappointed when congress went home for the weekend while some went to Porto Rico to a convention with some of the richest businesses in the world.

So now they feel abandoned by both sides of the government with no one actually trying to get them paid. They go to work not knowing when they will get paid. Also, they cannot quit unless they have a new job to go to right away, because you usually cannot get unemployment if you quit a job. Sorry, but I find it hard to see much good in either side right now.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
I think the only areas that are problematic are social security, welfare, and other things of that nature. The rest, you can probably deal without for a certain period of time.

Social Security is automatic so there's no problem. Those who are on food stamps, and rent subsidies are facing serious problems. Federal workers are not among the highest paid at all, like many others live from pay check to pay check. True when the shut down is over their pay will be retroactive. For others money allotted for disasters is held up etc.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Yeah. The midterm election results have made him nervous about his own re-election prospects, and his single-digit approval ratings are finally sinking in, so he has lashed out.


I'd say it's a lot of both.
I think it is also, perhaps mainly, the expression of a simple instinct to pursue a "victory". Trump has a likely pathological need to declare that he is "winning" at every available moment. There is a lot of circunstantial evidence that he simply does not quite know how to keep his peace otherwise.

Manufacturing this crisis enables him to call Democrats names and to convince himself that he is a tough nut to crack. And I must assume that keeping the whole country hostage to his whims for weeks is enough evidence that he is a force to be reckoned with, far as Trump himself is concerned. That is probably why he insisted that he would not blame the Democrats for the lockdown almost immediately after proposing it; in his mind, he must be the driving force even of disaster.
 
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