Is the US founded on "Christian values" ?

[Kathryn]

The Supreme Court

Of the three branches of government, the Supreme Court was the last to get its own building. In fact, it met in the Capitol building for over a hundred years. During that time, it met in many different rooms of the capitol until it finally settled in the Old Senate Chamber in 1860.

Supreme Court Justice William Howard Taft (who also had served as president) persuaded Congress to authorize funds for the Supreme Court building. It was modeled after Greek and Roman architecture in the familiar Corinthian style and dedicated in 1935.

It is ironic that the Supreme Court has often issued opinions which have stripped religious displays from the public square when these opinions have been read in a building with many religious displays. And it is ironic that public expressions of faith have been limited when all sessions of the court begin with the Courts Marshal announcing: God save the United States and this honorable court.

In a number of cases, the Supreme Court has declared the posting of the Ten Commandments unconstitutional (in public school classrooms and in a local courthouse in Kentucky). But this same Supreme Court has a number of places in its building where there are images of Moses with the Ten Commandments. These can be found at the center of the sculpture over the east portico of the Supreme Court building, inside the actual courtroom, and finally, engraved over the chair of the Chief Justice, and on the bronze doors of the Supreme Court itself.{11}

Nevertheless, the Supreme Court has often ruled against the very kind of religious expression that can be found in the building that houses the court. Former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich says in his book Rediscovering God in America, that we see a systematic effort . . . to purge all religious expression from American public life. He goes on to say that for the last fifty years the Supreme Court has become a permanent constitutional convention in which the whims of five appointed lawyers have rewritten the meaning of the Constitution. Under this new, all-powerful model of the Court, and by extension the trail-breaking Ninth Circuit Court, the Constitution and the law can be redefined by federal judges unchecked by the other two coequal branches of government.{12}
The Supreme Court

Of the three branches of government, the Supreme Court was the last to get its own building. In fact, it met in the Capitol building for over a hundred years. During that time, it met in many different rooms of the capitol until it finally settled in the Old Senate Chamber in 1860.

Supreme Court Justice William Howard Taft (who also had served as president) persuaded Congress to authorize funds for the Supreme Court building. It was modeled after Greek and Roman architecture in the familiar Corinthian style and dedicated in 1935.

It is ironic that the Supreme Court has often issued opinions which have stripped religious displays from the public square when these opinions have been read in a building with many religious displays. And it is ironic that public expressions of faith have been limited when all sessions of the court begin with the Courts Marshal announcing: God save the United States and this honorable court.

In a number of cases, the Supreme Court has declared the posting of the Ten Commandments unconstitutional (in public school classrooms and in a local courthouse in Kentucky). But this same Supreme Court has a number of places in its building where there are images of Moses with the Ten Commandments. These can be found at the center of the sculpture over the east portico of the Supreme Court building, inside the actual courtroom, and finally, engraved over the chair of the Chief Justice, and on the bronze doors of the Supreme Court itself.{11}

Nevertheless, the Supreme Court has often ruled against the very kind of religious expression that can be found in the building that houses the court. Former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich says in his book Rediscovering God in America, that we see a systematic effort . . . to purge all religious expression from American public life. He goes on to say that for the last fifty years the Supreme Court has become a permanent constitutional convention in which the whims of five appointed lawyers have rewritten the meaning of the Constitution. Under this new, all-powerful model of the Court, and by extension the trail-breaking Ninth Circuit Court, the Constitution and the law can be redefined by federal judges unchecked by the other two coequal branches of government.{12}

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

No, if what you are stating were the case, Christianity would have been much more integrated into the early American popular culture, which it wasn't, You seem to have the wrong idea about American Christian values/practices. Anyways, not only does America have "Freedom of Religion", but there is also no Christian symbolism present in our governmental institutions.
You are assuming that "Freedom of Religion" is not meant to include other religions, this is quite your fanciful idea, with obviously no written documents to back it up.

Christian Culture was and still is a norm. Your towns and villages and collections of homesteads all have their ancient churches. Even today new churches are being built.

You will see from my other posts, that I thought it fortuitous that their wording of "freedom of religion" can be used to include other religions.
Of course at the time people could not see into the future any better than us, and would not have thought for a minute that a plethora of "foreign" religions would one day be seen as normal.
Christian symbolism and prayer can be found throughout your institutions and capitol buildings.
I do recognise that many Americans have no concept of their history or what is to be learnt from it. They only repeat what they have read and been told.

 

[cablescavenger]

That's very true, but that's not in conflict with the idea that the majority of the founders of our country were Christians and that the system of government that evolved over several centuries of European settlement in the "New World" was heavily influenced by their Christian beliefs.

True the Law adopted was British, and the British run the show pre revolution, so saying Christian values founded the nation isn't too much of a stretch of the imagination.

What I struggle with is the term Christian values, and I am not sure if everyone sees the founding of the US as Pre or post revolution. I see it the founding as pre-revolution stemming from the Mayflower and early settlers, and see the revolution as progress in much the way I see wars in the history of the UK.

I don't know whether US citizens see it that way as I am not plugged into the American psyche, though it would be interesting to see how you feel about the point the US was founded and your views, but that might be another thread.

Christian values is a meaningless term. If you were to line them up next to Islamic, Sikh, Buddhist or Hindu values would they read any different? Are they original? Can they be defined?

The Law that Americans adopted was British. On the face of it some could claim quite simply the British were Christian so British law is Christian values. Yet British Law was built up over many hundreds of years using a complex system of law making relying on precedence and equity which was removed from religious interference (as best as it could be). In that respect I feel America was founded on British Society at during the pre-revolution period, and that it developed it's own way forward post revolution, which the founding fathers chose to be secular and free from religious interference.

 

[tumbleweed41]

U.S. Capitol Building

The Washington Monument

The Lincoln Memorial

The Jefferson Memorial

The Supreme Court

All of which have nothing to do with the Idealism of the Revolution or the actual founding of the US through the Constitution.

As I said before.

"Your talking about historical monuments from the so called "Great Awakening", not from the Revolution."

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

All of which have nothing to do with the Idealism of the Revolution or the actual founding of the US through the Constitution

There was no Idealism involved in the revolution.
It was all about self determination and the self interest of those involved.
It was fought by pig headed people against pig headed people.

The constitution was about compromise and not letting any single point of view or faith become dominant over those held by others. It was about protecting "My Rights and privileges" It was dressed up in grand words and good intentions.

 

[Kathryn]

All of which have nothing to do with the Idealism of the Revolution or the actual founding of the US through the Constitution.

As I said before.

"Your talking about historical monuments from the so called "Great Awakening", not from the Revolution."

OK so let me get this straight:

Christianity and the freedom to practice it as they believed was one of the most important reasons that many Europeans came to the US in the 1600s and 1700s.

The majority of "the Founding Fathers" were practicing Christians, with degrees either in divinity, or from Christian colleges. Many of their public and private writings clearly exhibit their belief in God and the importance of faith and God's providence.

The majority of the state constitutions in the 1700s specifically address the importance of Christianity, some even to the extent that they require elected officials to be Christians.

Blue laws (regulating Sunday activities in honor of the Christian practice of worship on Sunday) were firmly in place in most, if not all, of the 13 colonies prior and after the Revolution.

Every important document for governmental systems from the 1600s to the Revolution in the formation of our country talks specifically of God and/or Christianity and puts importance on those beliefs.

But - SUDDENLY - out of the blue, apparently - the only two documents that matter - the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution - sprang into being, totally unconnected to any other past events and belief systems - and to this day hang suspended in space far above and removed from past and current events.

Then, less than 100 years after that, while the children of the Founding Fathers were still alive, a Great Awakening occurred and these children did something apparently against all they had been taught by their "secular" parents,and suddenly started erecting monuments with religious symbolism all over Washington - probably just to make their parents turn over in their graves.

These rebellious kids! Some things never change!

 

[tumbleweed41]

Kathryn,
I did not say the US Constitution "sprang into being totally unconnected to...." anything. And we have both admitted that an individuals values influence how they think and act, be it Christian or not.

Yes, many Christians were involved in the founding of the US. But the US Constitution, as the official document laying out the formation of the United States, is distinctly a product of the Enlightenment Age. An Age that lasted from 1650 to 1800. (Hardly "springing from nowhere as you keep saying).

And yes, Christianity is obvious in Blue Laws and in some state laws and in monuments around the country.

But not in the US Constitution,.

 

[Kathryn]

Kathryn,
I did not say the US Constitution "sprang into being totally unconnected to...." anything. And we have both admitted that an individuals values influence how they think and act, be it Christian or not.

Yes, many Christians were involved in the founding of the US. But the US Constitution, as the official document laying out the formation of the United States, is distinctly a product of the Enlightenment Age. An Age that lasted from 1650 to 1800. (Hardly "springing from nowhere as you keep saying).

And yes, Christianity is obvious in Blue Laws and in some state laws and in monuments around the country.

But not in the US Constitution,.

I'm not limiting my ideas or opinions about the founding of our nation to the Constitution only. You can choose to if you like, but that's not the conversation I'm having.

 

[BruceDLimber]

I defined some Christian values. I gave some examples, such as "the Golden Rule" and the Ten Commandments.

Save that as I've already mentioned, the Golden Rule is found in the scriptures of ALL the great religions!

And the Ten Commandments happen to be Jewish in origin, not Christian (regardless of later adoption).


Bruce

 

[Kathryn]

Save that as I've already mentioned, the Golden Rule is found in the scriptures of ALL the great religions!

And the Ten Commandments happen to be Jewish in origin, not Christian (regardless of later adoption).


Bruce

That doesn't mean that they aren't Christian values as well. I never specifically said that they were limited to Christianity.

What I said was that though they may be values shared by other religions, the Founding Fathers didn't identify themselves as Shinto, or Jewish, or whatever - and like other faiths or belief systems, there were also specific activities that were Christian in nature that were very important to early American Europeans. For instance, keeping Sunday as a "day of rest" (ie, blue laws which were quite prevalent in the early colonies, and even in most states till well into the 20th century for that matter).

 

[BruceDLimber]

U.S. Capitol Building

The religious imagery in the Rotunda is significant. Eight different historical paintings are on display....

I find it notable, though, that you fail to mention the painting atop the rotunda: "The Apeoheosis of Washington." IOW, Washington being raised to the status of a god.

At the east entrance to the Senate chamber are the words Annuit Coeptis which is Latin for God has favored our undertakings.

Sorry, no:

The meaning is "It favors our undertakings." God is not mentioned here.

Accuracy does have its virtues, please note.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Desert Snake]

Christian Culture was and still is a norm. Your towns and villages and collections of homesteads all have their ancient churches. Even today new churches are being built.

You will see from my other posts, that I thought it fortuitous that their wording of "freedom of religion" can be used to include other religions.
Of course at the time people could not see into the future any better than us, and would not have thought for a minute that a plethora of "foreign" religions would one day be seen as normal.
Christian symbolism and prayer can be found throughout your institutions and capitol buildings.
I do recognise that many Americans have no concept of their history or what is to be learnt from it. They only repeat what they have read and been told.

More semantics and fanciful thinking on your part. "Freedom of Religion" means just that, you don't know what the founding fathers intention was and as a non-American you don't know what values the contitution was based on either. And as for Christian symbolism, no, it is largely absent from the institutions and Capitol buildings.

 

[Kathryn]

I find it notable, though, that you fail to mention the painting atop the rotunda: "The Apeoheosis of Washington." IOW, Washington being raised to the status of a god.



Sorry, no:

The meaning is "It favors our undertakings." God is not mentioned here.

Accuracy does have its virtues, please note.

Peace,

Bruce

Actually what it means is "He has favored our undertakings."
Annuit c

 

[tumbleweed41]

The Primary Author of the US Constitution was James Madison, who had this to say on America as a "Christian Nation"

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."

James Madison; Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments; 1785
Full text HERE

 

[Kathryn]

The Primary Author of the US Constitution was James Madison, who had this to say on America as a "Christian Nation"

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."

James Madison; Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments; 1785
Full text HERE

That's all well and good. That's a quote from one man. I've given example after example of quotes by founders of our nation which clearly demonstrate the importance of the role that Christianity plays in their ideal nation which they spent their lives and fortunes founding here in North America.

 

[tumbleweed41]

In reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom, Thomas Jefferson wrote in his Autobiography;

"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."

Full Autobiography HERE

 

[tumbleweed41]

Article VI, Section 3 of the US Constitution;
". . . no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

Full text of the US Constitution HERE

 

[Kathryn]

In reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom, Thomas Jefferson wrote in his Autobiography;

"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."

Full Autobiography HERE

Of course. The Founding Fathers specifically meant to protect ALL religious freedoms (even though I find it ironic that Jefferson calls people "infidels" in this quote).

That does not mean that this Christianity wasn't a huge part and didn't play a major role in the founding of this nation.

Like I said, I myself am a Christian. I am also a libertarian. I raised my kids to be Christians, I live my Christian faith in my Christian home, and my decisions, including professional and political decisions, are based within my own values and my Christian faith. I personally oppose some activities that I also believe that others should be allowed to participate in freely and should be protected by the law as well.

But my moral decisions and actions are grounded in my faith, and aren't separate from my professional and political code of values.

Based on the amount of religious symbolism, discussion, reference in documents and letters, etc from the 1600s to late 1700s from our Founding Fathers, I believe the majority of them would agree with this approach -and took this approach.

 

[tumbleweed41]

In "A Defense of the Constitution of Government of the United States of America" John Adams wrote;

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses."

". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."

Full text HERE

 

[Kathryn]

Article VI, Section 3 of the US Constitution;
". . . no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

Full text of the US Constitution HERE

In spite of that, several states included that and STILL have such restrictions in their state constitutions. I posted a link earlier. I believe there are seven such states.