1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Is the universe infinite or finite?

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by firedragon, May 12, 2021.

?
  1. Infinite

  2. Finite

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. ben d

    ben d Dhyani

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    10,159
    Ratings:
    +1,346
    Religion:
    Panentheism
    What ever is the underlying pure essence of God, yes, it was never created, it is eternal, God is transcendent to, and immanent in, creation.
     
  2. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    20,526
    Ratings:
    +5,339
    Religion:
    Islam
    I am not talking about the essence of God.

    I am talking about creation.

    If God created it, was he not there prior to creation?
     
  3. ben d

    ben d Dhyani

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    10,159
    Ratings:
    +1,346
    Religion:
    Panentheism
    You keep asking about a beginning and I keep explaining there is no beginning, there was no creation, it has always been thus. Nothing can be added nor can it be taken away. It is like this always, always has been, always will be.
     
  4. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    20,526
    Ratings:
    +5,339
    Religion:
    Islam
    So there was no creation. God is not a creator. Am I correct? That is in your definition.
     
  5. ben d

    ben d Dhyani

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    10,159
    Ratings:
    +1,346
    Religion:
    Panentheism
    There was no creation of existence, for God is existence.
     
  6. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    20,526
    Ratings:
    +5,339
    Religion:
    Islam
    Okay. So no creation. Just existence. God is not the creator. He is just existence.

    Thats your idea of GOd. Correct?
     
  7. ben d

    ben d Dhyani

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    10,159
    Ratings:
    +1,346
    Religion:
    Panentheism
    Haha, He is just existence. God is the one that is all. All that happens is of God, ie., creation, destruction, peace, war, good and evil. God is the source of you, dig deep enough and you will see you are His expression. God is within you, your body is merely a temple of God.
     
  8. wellwisher

    wellwisher Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,435
    Ratings:
    +486
    Religion:
    Catholic
    One argument against an infinite material based universe, is the BB theory. That theory of science assumes the universe began in the past, starting as a point singularity. It is still expanding. If it was infinite, the universe should have no beginning, end, or semblance of still getting larger. It would already occupy all available space and time up front and appear that way to science. The BB theory is better correlated with a finite universe. An infinite universe would have always existed, such that there should be no net change over time and no BB from zero to universe to witness.

    Another consideration is relativity and relative reference. If you plug the speed of light into Einstein's equation for Special Relativity, the universe would appear contracted to a point-instant. How do you get an infinite universe to fit into a point? If it could, it would become finite in that reference.

    An infinite universe might contract, in part, like a black hole in local space, but the nebulous outside edge will never reach that point, since it would be nebulous infinite. A finite universe, uses the speed of light as a constant. It was designed to coordinate with space-time via this constant. At the speed of light only our finite universe can appear all pulled it.

    On the other hand, say space-time became discontinuous and broke down into separated space and separated time. Currently, space and time are connected, as spare-time, placing limits on how time and space must interact. But if time and space were disconnected and could act independently of each other, the interaction of space and time would totally change.

    In this scenario, one could move in space without the constraints of time and move in time without the constraints of space. If you could move in time without the constraints of space, that are implicit of space-time, you would be omnipresent. If you could move in time without the constraint of space, as imposed by space-time, you would know the history of the universe, everywhere; omniscience. These are two classic attributes of God. The classic paradox of God being larger than large and smaller than small, could occur if God could move in space without the constraint of time. He could be both places, simultaneously.

    I try to use science to infer the realm of God. This was done by plugging the speed of light into the three equation of Einstein's special relativity. We know mass cannot move at the speed of light; mass becomes discontinuous. If we assume time and space will follow and become discontinuous that the rules of space-time would not apply.

    This realm where space and time are not connected would not appear to us by current experiments, since we live in a place where space-time is connected and this sets limits on what is possible and therefore what we can measure; limited by the laws of physics designed for space-time.

    We will not see omnipresence or omniscience affects since we cannot measure time without using the limits imposed by space-time, nor can we measure space without the limits imposed by space-time. This could explain why God cannot be seen in the lab. All our tools are designed for phenomena in space-time, but not beyond that union of space-time. The human brain appears to be the only useful tool; emotional triggers.

    Moving in space without the constraint of time, describes, for example, moving in a worm hole. We can enter the theoretical worm hole and reappear on the other side of the universe, in zero time. This would violate the speed of light for all practical purposes, due to distance divided by time of unified space-time, calculated as being faster than the speed of light. But this scenario would be valid where space and time have become dissociate.

    The inflation period of the early BB, is theorized to have expanded the universe faster than the speed of light. This then slows two to below the speed of light. This suggests our finite universe originally came from that unique place where space and time were separated; The Divine Realm. Inflation was a transient period between infinite possibilities and the appearance of finite space-time.
     
    #508 wellwisher, Mar 14, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2022
  9. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    20,526
    Ratings:
    +5,339
    Religion:
    Islam
    If God is the source of creation, before the whole universe was created, God should have existed.
     
  10. ben d

    ben d Dhyani

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    10,159
    Ratings:
    +1,346
    Religion:
    Panentheism
    Not possible, the universe could not have had a beginning, it has always existed. The universe that you are aware of is the manifestation of God, the manifestation is not separate from God, for God is one, it has no parts, only the human ego mind sees distinctions since it works in time and space. God consciousness is not in 3D time space, it is a timeless and infinite oneness.
     
  11. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    20,526
    Ratings:
    +5,339
    Religion:
    Islam
    Right. Then its not created. Its eternal in your theology. Thus it simply cannot be creation. Creation by default has a beginning. That is why its called creation.
     
  12. ben d

    ben d Dhyani

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    10,159
    Ratings:
    +1,346
    Religion:
    Panentheism
    Yes but remember, all physical objects that exist have been created, ie., galaxies, stars, planets, humans, etc., but of course like all created things, they must eventually die, and new ones created, this creation, life, destruction cycle goes on eternally, there was never a beginning of it.

    So summarizing it, there was never a beginning to the creation and destruction cycles of all universal manifested objects. Only God is eternal, and creates eternally.
     
  13. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    20,526
    Ratings:
    +5,339
    Religion:
    Islam
    So in your theology, there was never a beginning to the universe! Correct? The universe was never created, but always existed, and its God himself. Like a pantheistic theology.

    Thanks for clarifying.
     
  14. ben d

    ben d Dhyani

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    10,159
    Ratings:
    +1,346
    Religion:
    Panentheism
    Correct.

    Thank you.
     
  15. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    20,526
    Ratings:
    +5,339
    Religion:
    Islam
    Alles Gut.
     
  16. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

    Joined:
    May 1, 2017
    Messages:
    4,925
    Ratings:
    +2,473
    Religion:
    Independently religious with no affiliation
    Just to think about it, existence must be infinite in all directions otherwise you would run into an non existence that borders existence; that to me is an impossibility. The universe was not always it's current form, so I think a good question is: is there anything fundamental about the universe, or does it arise from a more foundational and infinite reality?

    I also think an eternal intelligence is the most logical conclusion for the existence of conscious intellect, and the human form. If that's all true, and the universe is not fundamental, then there is an intelligent infinite foundational reality that spawns universes. I don't believe in God, so I would think this infinite intelligent reality is non living natural intelligence that may have a source in living intelligence.

    Something about existence must be infinite in all directions.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  17. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    20,526
    Ratings:
    +5,339
    Religion:
    Islam
    So you dont believe that the beings in the universe are contingent? Do you really believe all are necessary?

    Please clarify.
     
  18. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

    Joined:
    May 1, 2017
    Messages:
    4,925
    Ratings:
    +2,473
    Religion:
    Independently religious with no affiliation
    I believe beings are spawned from a necessary reality and are contingent upon that reality. I believe that foundational reality is eternal.

    I believe that matter and energy is essentially mindless, and there is another reality driving the existence of life, and perhaps forming our universe.
     
  19. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    20,526
    Ratings:
    +5,339
    Religion:
    Islam
    All of them are beings osgart.

    Do you believe all beings are necessary? Or are they all contingent?

    What is your conception of the universe?
     
  20. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

    Joined:
    May 1, 2017
    Messages:
    4,925
    Ratings:
    +2,473
    Religion:
    Independently religious with no affiliation
    I believe we become from a necessary existence, and are thus eternal at conception. There may be life that has always existed. Obviously that's not us. My logic is that it takes intelligence to make intelligence or intelligence would never exist. Iow there is no magic appearance of intelligence from non intelligence. So intelligence must be eternal.

    The universe is spawned from an eternal reality if it's not eternal itself. I think it's likely that are universe has a beginning and has roots in a deeper reality.

    My logic is that non existence is impossible within existence thus existence is infinite in all directions. A finite reality must be spawned by an infinite, eternal reality; can't get something from nothing.
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...