Is the Theory of Evolution Harmless to Religion?

[Searcher of Light]

Evolution can remove any sense of accountability. It may no do so for everyone, but its implications that we live and then just cease to exist without any continual consequence of our actions undermines morality. Of course, religion can do the same by providing a "higher reason" to be immoral

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It may no do so for everyone, but its implications that we live and then just cease to exist without any continual consequence of our actions undermines morality.

Not mine.

 

[Quiddity]

Not mine.

Good to hear. Hitler's and Stalin's of the world can get away with it. That's not the case in the Christian world view.

~Victor

 

[michel]

I agree with your point. Science is a toolbox, but as we know a screwdriver can be used to fasten on dryboard while decorating your living room, or can be used by the local neds (read:chavs) to cause injury. I often worry about the effects of big business on the integrity of science. I still think my trust is better placed in science to answer the questions that puzzle me, than in an entity that has never spoke to me.

Fair enough; I just wanted to make the point that scientists are fallible, and can only work within the knowledge of the framework of their knowledge, at the time.

 

[michel]

Evolution can remove any sense of accountability. It may no do so for everyone, but its implications that we live and then just cease to exist without any continual consequence of our actions undermines morality. Of course, religion can do the same by providing a "higher reason" to be immoral

That statement infers that without a deity, man has no need for morality. That, I am afraid, is totally fallacious, and what is more I see it is a dreadful and unwarranted inditement on the fine moral atheists we have on this forum.

 

[Quiddity]

That statement infers that without a deity, man has no need for morality. That, I am afraid, is totally fallacious, and what is more I see it is a dreadful and unwarranted inditement on the fine moral atheists we have on this forum.

I'm not sure that's what he meant Michel. I understood him to mean that atheism has no hope of eventual eschatological justice. Hitler gets away with murder. For those who believe in a judgement after death, that would not be the case.

~Victor

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Evolution can remove any sense of accountability. It may no do so for everyone, but its implications that we live and then just cease to exist without any continual consequence of our actions undermines morality.

Evolution has nothing to do with what happens to people when they die. Nor does a mature intellect require threat/reward in the afterlife in order to empathise with other thinking beings and treat them accordingly.

I'm not sure that's what he meant Michel. I understood him to mean that atheism has no hope of eventual eschatological justice. Hitler gets away with murder. For those who believe in a judgement after death, that would not be the case.

If there is no judgement after death, people will have the ability to get away with murder, I'm afraid, whether or not people believe in said judgement. In any case, there's no shortage of people who commit homocide who believe in divine judgment; like the death penalty, it does not seem to be a deterrant for many. Unlike the death penalty, belief in divine judgment has lead some to commit mass murder.

 

[Quiddity]

If there is no judgement after death, people will have the ability to get away with murder, I'm afraid, whether or not people believe in said judgement. In any case, there's no shortage of people who commit homocide who believe in divine judgment; like the death penalty, it does not seem to be a deterrant for many. Unlike the death penalty, belief in divine judgment has lead some to commit mass murder.

If eschatological justice exist, they have not gotten away with murder MS. That's the point. A person who believes or doesn't believe may very well "get away with it" in this world. But in the Christian world view, nobody gets away with anything. In the atheistic world view, one can get away with everything.


~Victor

 

[Yerda]

I find that the term "God of the Gaps" is used mostly when trying to trivialize the beliefs of a deist.

I wouldn't knowingly trivialize someone's beliefs, but I'm sure that the argument is fitting. If it suits you then fine, I have no problem, but it is an underwhelming strategy.

What many characterize as a mere gap happens to be infinitely wide.

Of course. The point is that it's easy to point to our bewilderment and call it 'god', regardless of the size of the hole.

Did god make the sun rise before we discovered the Earth's tilt? Before germ theory did evil spirits make us ill? Get my point?

In fairness I note that you don't often do this, and take what we do know as example instead. It's still unconvincing, however, since we know how these things work and need no god to play a part.

That you have faith that science can conquer this spiritual chasm strikes me as being overly optimistic and based on blind faith in the resourcefulness of man.

Like I've said, I think it is reasonable to suppose that science will continue answering the questions we don't know. It's overly simplistic perhaps, but I don't feel it is blind or optimistic to extrapolate from past trends to future trends.

 

[Yerda]

But in the Christian world view, nobody gets away with anything.~Victor

Except the tyrant you call god. Nobody appears to be holding this god to account for the horrid things it does.

 

[Traitorist]

its harmless

 

[Mr Spinkles]

If eschatological justice exist, they have not gotten away with murder MS. That's the point. A person who believes or doesn't believe may very well "get away with it" in this world. But in the Christian world view, nobody gets away with anything. In the atheistic world view, one can get away with everything.

All the more reason to fight for justice in this life. If we don't make things right, no god(s) will do it for us later on.

 

[Fatmop]

Yes, I suppose even though Hussein went and gassed all those Kurds, it's ok because he'll be punished in the afterlife!

 

[painted wolf]

Evolution says nothing about punnishment or reward or the existance of an afterlife.

in my opinion Evolution should be harmless to Religion... the only people it threatens IMHO are those who are uncomfortable with thier faith. Those who can not maintain faith in thier God/Religion without the literalness and "infalibility" of the entirety of thier respective leaders/dogma.

Those who deep down fear that if one part of thier docterine is 'wrong' or alligorical then maybe the whole thing is.

but again this is just my opinion.

wa:do

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

Except the tyrant you call god. Nobody appears to be holding this god to account for the horrid things it does.

Well He owns the playground, so He makes the rules. If I am the supreme law maker, can I be held to have broken any laws? If so, I can simply change them to fit with what I choose to do. Omnipotence is a good fall back for your argument.

On a related note, I started reading the Bible from beginning to end a couple days ago, toward the end of Genesis now, and I have already found two individuals whose name escape me at the moment who were specifically killed by God. One of them was killed because he refused to impregnate a woman he wasn't married to, I don't recall the other one's offense, but it was something along the same lines. (then of course there is the Flood which killed everybody but Noah and company) As yet, I have seen no mention of the Devil killing anyone, nor, in fact have I seen the mention of the Devil at all.

Lots of incest tho. Jacob marries his cousins, has kids with both of them, and both of their handmaidens. Also have noticed references to other gods. So far I have seen God murder at least 2 individuals, and Abraham lying about his relationship with his wife, who he apparently pimped out to an Egyptian, tons of examples of people marrying close family members, and acknowledgement of other gods, God telling Abraham to murder his son, and not a whole lot of good works by anyone.

But since God is omnipotent and omniscient, all these things are done for His glory, and are somehow "right" or "correct" things to do, tho I doubt there are many here who would defend this type of behavior if someone alive today were doing these things. Once again, gotta remember who is setting up the rules before you decide if that individual is doing anything wrong.

B.

 

[Quiddity]

All the more reason to fight for justice in this life. If we don't make things right, no god(s) will do it for us later on.

Justice can be deduced to reletavism in your world MS. Your fights years from now will mean nothing in a changing world. Perhaps you have more faith in humanity then I. But this forum and thousands of others seem to support me alot more. People don't agree. To think this disagreement will stay charitable is what I pray for, but reality in this world points elsewhere. I'm telling you that it was a huge mistake of evolution to give us free will. Fighting for the dignity of a person and right to life in a universal and absolute morality is but a step in the right direction.

Sorry, we are going off topic and probably best if you join in this convo if you wish to continue:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=293642#post293642


~Victor

 

[Searcher of Light]

That statement infers that without a deity, man has no need for morality. That, I am afraid, is totally fallacious, and what is more I see it is a dreadful and unwarranted inditement on the fine moral atheists we have on this forum.

There are many highly moral atheists in the world. More atheists are moral than people who proclaim themselves Christians I would guess.

My point is evolution can provide for some people reinforcement for their animal-like behavior; while the belief in a Higher Power of some sort tends to hedge that behavior a little better. If people believe there is a policeman hanging over them watching their every move, they are more likely to at least have guilt over an immoral action. Far too many people need someone with a stick to keep them in line. This is why every country has a mess of laws over nearly every aspect of life.

I applaud the people who don't need that stick over their back to be good. :clap

 

[mr.guy]

Well He owns the playground, so He makes the rules. If I am the supreme law maker, can I be held to have broken any laws? If so, I can simply change them to fit with what I choose to do. Omnipotence is a good fall back for your argument.

My sentiments exactly.

 

[Quiddity]

Except the tyrant you call god. Nobody appears to be holding this god to account for the horrid things it does.

Rrrrrrrright. Perhaps you are the great and power OZ that can do this?

~Victor

 

[Scuba Pete]

There are many highly moral atheists in the world.

No argument here.

More atheists are moral than people who proclaim themselves Christians I would guess.

At least you labled this a "guess". A person who sees themselves as "good" has no need for God. Those who see their condition as flawed are able to humble themselves to God. Which is better? To each his own I guess!

I applaud the people who don't need that stick over their back to be good. :clap

I do too! Perfect love casts out fear.