is the regime of Israel "racist " ?

[1robin]

What about terrorism in general?

NOP Research: 1 in 4 British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06
People-Press: 31% of Turks support suicide attacks against Westerners in Iraq.
http://people-press.org/report/206/a-year-after-iraq-war
YNet: One third of Palestinians (32%) supported the slaughter of a Jewish family, including the children:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4053251,00.html
World Public Opinion: 61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans
32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans
41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans
38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans
83% of Palestinians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans
62% of Jordanians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans
42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf
Pew Research (2010): 55% of Jordanians have a positive view of Hezbollah
30% of Egyptians have a positive view of Hezbollah
45% of Nigerian Muslims have a positive view of Hezbollah
43% of Indonesians have a positive view of Hezbollah
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/
Pew Research (2010): 60% of Jordanians have a positive view of Hamas
49% of Egyptians have a positive view of Hamas
49% of Nigerian Muslims have a positive view of Hamas
39% of Indonesians have a positive view of Hamas
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/
Pew Research (2010): 15% of Indonesians believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified.
34% of Nigerian Muslims believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified.
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/
Populus Poll (2006): 12% of young Muslims in Britain (and 12% overall) believe that suicide attacks against civilians in Britain can be justified. 1 in 4 support suicide attacks against British troops.
http://www.populuslimited.com/pdf/2006_02_07_times.pdf
Pew Research (2007): 26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified.
35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified
42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified
22% of young Muslims in Germany believe suicide bombings are justified
29% of young Muslims in Spain believe suicide bombings are justified.
http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60
Pew Research (2011): 8% of Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified (81% never).
Pew Research (2007): Muslim-Americans who identify more strongly with their religion are three times more likely to feel that suicide bombings are justified
http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60

What about the condemnation of terrorism versus approval by Muslims?

40% of Indonesians approve of violence in defense of Islam.
http://www.thejakartapost.com/detailweekly.asp?fileid=20060728.@03
Pew Global: 68% of Palestinian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
43% of Nigerian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
38% of Lebanese Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
http://cnsnews.com/node/53865 (Pew Global Attitudes Project September, 2009)
Policy Exchange: One third of British Muslims believe anyone who leaves Islam should be killed
http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf
NOP Research: Hardcore Islamists comprise 9% of Britain's Muslim population;
Another 29% would "aggressively defend" Islam;
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06
Pew Research (2010): 84% of Egyptian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam
86% of Jordanian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam
30% of Indonesian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam
76% of Pakistanis support death the penalty for leaving Islam
51% of Nigerian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/



This is getting monotanous so I will switch to the claim I made that there have been thosuands chanting death to America in Arab nations:

Deadly anti-American protests erupted in Afghanistan for a fourth day Friday, with thousands of Afghans pouring onto the streets following Friday prayers, many chanting "Death to America."
Fresh Anti-US Protests Erupt in Afghanistan

Thousands in Afghanistan protest, chant 'Death to America' over onc...

Shops and police checkpoints have been set on fire during a protest in Afghanistan over a once-planned Quran burning in the United States.
Thousands in Afghanistan protest, chant 'Death to America' over onc... - Topix


September 17, 2012

“Prophet of God, we offer ourselves, our blood and our kin for the sake of your dignity and honour,” Nasrallah told supporters chanting “Death to Israel” and “Death to America” at a rally in the southern Shia suburbs of Beirut. “The US should understand that if it broadcasts the film in full it will face very dangerous repercussions around the world.”
Video - Thousands of Islamists Chant
(All for a film that did not exist.)

Thousands of Iranians chanting "death to America" burn U.S., Israeli flags in celebration of 33rd anniversary of seizure of U.S. embassy
Thousands of Iranians chanting "death to America" burn U.S., Israeli flags in celebration of 33rd anniversary of seizure of U.S. embassy - Jihad Watch

Arafat Horrified by Attacks, but Thousands of Palestinians Celebrate; Rest of World Outraged.

Arafat Horrified by Attacks, but Thousands of Palestinians Celebrate; Rest of World Outraged | Fox News

I apologize but this has been so disgusting I can't take any more at this time. I had at least twice as much to go but it is too depressing for me and I imagine anyone else with a heart. Agree, disagree, or complain about sources because the numbers are inconvenient, as you wish.

 

[Sunstone]

I think if you go back in time, Robin, and start with polling immediately after 9/11, you will see attitudes in the Muslim world begin with disapproval of the attacks and support for America, then over time shift more and more towards antagonism to America and support for terrorism. That seems to have been the Muslim response to our invasion of Muslim countries.

Now if some outside force invaded Canada and began bombing us, like we've invaded Afghanistan and have bombed Pakistan, then that force would probably be pretty low on our list of preferred countries -- just like we're now pretty low on most every list in the Muslim world.

It's just a fact our policies are creating terrorists and enemies.

 

[1robin]

I think if you go back in time, Robin, and start with polling immediately after 9/11, you will see attitudes in the Muslim world begin with disapproval of the attacks and support for America, then over time shift more and more towards antagonism to America and support for terrorism. That seems to have been the Muslim response to our invasion of Muslim countries.

I am sure there is some truth to that. However I think it very safe to say that at the very least 10% of most Muslim populations agreed with 9/11 as the numbers specifically address. That means 150 million people believe terrorizing innocent women and children is good. There is something diabolical about that especially since the actual numbers are much higher. I will not get too deep into this, it just frustrates me, so I will give only brief responses.

Now if some outside force invaded Canada and began bombing us, like we've invaded Afghanistan and have bombed Pakistan, then that force would probably be pretty low on our list of preferred countries -- just like we're now pretty low on most every list in the Muslim world.

I think you could indeed show an increase in hatred towards us after we invaded but what you can't do is show that it did exist before to a great extent. This stuff goes back to the Pentateuch and we have been specifically target for helping Israel since the 50's and for some strange reasoneven for helping Islam win against Russia in Afghanistan. I know the issues are very complex but I just can't stomach any more of this right now. Isn't there currently some oil field in Nigeria where yet another band of Islamic terrorists have killed more innocent people?

It's just a fact our policies are creating terrorists and enemies.

I am not sure that any military action against any one anywhere by anyone has not produced resentment. It's an ugly world and the only thing necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing, and I will add it is the even worse to do things half way. I am sure we deserve some level of resentment but in the total balance of things the US and Israel have acting infinitely more honorable and reasonable than Islam. An obvious way to illustrate this is the fact we spend billions and billions and lose countless lives in efforts to minimize civilian casualties. They target women and children every chance they get. We conquer a place, rebuild it better than it ever was, and then give it back. Just look at the before and after statistics for Iraq. That place is unimaginably better off now than it was before, yet many of them resent us for the clean water, more electric power, schools, security etc… etc…. I am very well aware of human fallibility and ignorance but this level of hate is simply depressing and I will not discuss it again for a bit. I served during the first gulf war and knew people that were killed in the act of holding fire so as to not risk collateral damage or in helping a child. They said it best, they believe they will defeat us because they love death more than we love life. There is something insane about that. I hope I provided sources for what you requested. I can give you infinitely more in a PM if you desire it but I have no current desire to discuss this further publically.

 

[F0uad]

Robin you have lost all my respect seeing you back here talking this way. If you really think this badly about Muslims you surely know how to pretend to like us on the other forums.

I am sure there is some truth to that. However I think it very safe to say that at the very least 10% of most Muslim populations agreed with 9/11 as the numbers specifically address. That means 150 million people believe terrorizing innocent women and children is good. There is something diabolical about that especially since the actual numbers are much higher. I will not get too deep into this, it just frustrates me, so I will give only brief responses.

I have took time to read the things you posted and most of the polls show only how people in some "Muslim" countries thought about attacking foreign invaders to be more specific the Military forces in Iraq and Afghanistan.

If China invaded America do you belief that Americans are justified by attacking the military of China that is occupying them, your answer will be yes. Please give me one source that is reliable and says that a majority of a country believed that the 9/11 was justified or was a good thing.

I think you could indeed show an increase in hatred towards us after we invaded but what you can't do is show that it did exist before to a great extent. This stuff goes back to the Pentateuch and we have been specifically target for helping Israel since the 50's and for some strange reasoneven for helping Islam win against Russia in Afghanistan. I know the issues are very complex but I just can't stomach any more of this right now. Isn't there currently some oil field in Nigeria where yet another band of Islamic terrorists have killed more innocent people?

So first allying with someone and then 10 years later bombing them and hunting them down (before 9/11), building military bases in Saudi, Yemen, Qatar and other places don't make you wonder?

Help Islam against Russia are you really generalizing that much since when does one country speak for a religion? If that is the case America "Christianity" is full of immoral people and likes to kill Muslims for the last decades. Sure empowering dictators, colonizing, exploit resources and people have nothing to do with it.

I am not sure that any military action against any one anywhere by anyone has not produced resentment. It's an ugly world and the only thing necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing, and I will add it is the even worse to do things half way. I am sure we deserve some level of resentment but in the total balance of things the US and Israel have acting infinitely more honorable and reasonable than Islam. An obvious way to illustrate this is the fact we spend billions and billions and lose countless lives in efforts to minimize civilian casualties. They target women and children every chance they get. We conquer a place, rebuild it better than it ever was, and then give it back. Just look at the before and after statistics for Iraq. That place is unimaginably better off now than it was before, yet many of them resent us for the clean water, more electric power, schools, security etc… etc…. I am very well aware of human fallibility and ignorance but this level of hate is simply depressing and I will not discuss it again for a bit. I served during the first gulf war and knew people that were killed in the act of holding fire so as to not risk collateral damage or in helping a child. They said it best, they believe they will defeat us because they love death more than we love life. There is something insane about that. I hope I provided sources for what you requested. I can give you infinitely more in a PM if you desire it but I have no current desire to discuss this further publically.

Omg are you serious? First time i saw this kind of ignorance in my live and i am not joking.

 

[Godobeyer]

killing innocent is NEVER EVER not justified in Islam, if some bad muslims justified it, it's up to them.

 

[Godobeyer]

It isn't worth the effort brother he is convinced Muslims are wild animals that must be contained.

Wild animals !!!!

 

[1robin]

Robin you have lost all my respect seeing you back here talking this way. If you really think this badly about Muslims you surely know how to pretend to like us on the other forums.

I have never made any secrete about what I think concerning Islam. I like many Muslims but I do not like Islam and have never ever claimed otherwise. I never hold an individual responsible for what others have done and take people one at a time and assume they are honorable until proven otherwise. I have always acted in accordance with that. That has nothing to do with what I posted here. I said originally that Muslims celebrated 9/11 and other terrorist attacks in great numbers and I knew of only far less that times when denounced them. Someone wanted sources for that and so I provided them. If you have a problem with the statistics I suggest you take it up with Muslims or show they are seriously flawed. My opinion (good or bad) did not produce the statistics. They are what they are.

I have took time to read the things you posted and most of the polls show only how people in some "Muslim" countries thought about attacking foreign invaders to be more specific the Military forces in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Because of length I deleted all the nations that were lesser known. That stats show that Islamic tolerance and even approval of terrorism is a significant universal opinion where ever it is practiced. If you claim there is an increase concerning Iraq and Afghanistan I have no reason to argue. I do find it odd that people would be mad at a country that rid them of a dictator that killed his own people by the tens of thousands. That country spent billions and lost lives limiting civilian casualties, and spent billions more to rebuild Iraq to a much better state then it was previously. I am sure some things went wrong along the way but if I lived there I would have welcomed not resented schools, roads, electric power, and clean water.

If China invaded America do you belief that Americans are justified by attacking the military of China that is occupying them, your answer will be yes. Please give me one source that is reliable and says that a majority of a country believed that the 9/11 was justified or was a good thing.

I never claimed the majority of any country did. I said many (hundreds of thousands approved of it and other terrorist attacks) and only the occasional or obligatory veiled denouncement from officials was heard. Even if only 10%-40% approve of terrorism we are still saying that tens of millions of Muslims support killing innocent people on purpose. That is indefensible. To try anyway is wrong. I do not defend what the crusaders or the inquisition did and they were tiny compared to Islamic terrorism.

So first allying with someone and then 10 years later bombing them and hunting them down (before 9/11), building military bases in Saudi, Yemen, Qatar and other places don't make you wonder?

Yes, it makes me wonder why the Muslims were not grateful for our help. They took the billions we gave them and then when there was no war to fight began using it, the equipment, and training against anyone they did not like so we began destroying the bases and I am sure key members of cells as well. We have given countless countries military aid including Israel and I can't think of another one that took it and turned it on us. We rebuilt Germany and Japan as well and they didn't hate us for it. I will say that the Afghanistan issue is complex and there are many exceptions to the rule but few of them are honorable.

Help Islam against Russia are you really generalizing that much since when does one country speak for a religion?

One of the main leaders in Afghanistan at the time was Bin Laden. Much of the war was fought by foreign Muslims. Russia invaded Afghanistan specifically it was going Islamic as fast as they could instead of communist. If you wish to separate secular Afghanistanians (whatever that would be) from Islamic Afghanistan it won't make much difference. We were not helping Islam as much as hurting Russia but Islam gained much in the course of things.

If that is the case America "Christianity" is full of immoral people and likes to kill Muslims for the last decades. Sure empowering dictators, colonizing, exploit resources and people have nothing to do with it.

You would have to give specifics and as I said you wish to exclude the secular afghans that is fine with me.

Omg are you serious? First time I saw this kind of ignorance in my live and I am not joking.

Come on man. Inconvenient truth is still truth whether you like it or not. I have no idea which facts you are protesting but many of the ones in the last paragraph are a matter of personal experience and so very well known to me to be factual. I was there, I saw them happen. The statistics can't be dismissed (and there are at least ten times as much at the one site I used), Afghanistan is a well-known story and you gave no counter claims so what is it exactly besides inconvenience you reject?

I know very well you will resent anything that is less than flattery concerning Islam. That is hardly an arguemnt. Your post was 95% emotional dismissive and an actual clarification about Afganistan vs Islam which is pointless but in some small way true at times so I have no problem admitting partially, as well as another clarification about stats and Iraq which is partially true but has no effect. There was not a single counter proof in the whole post. I can accept terrible acts of Christians in history why can't you accept Islam's mistakes. Quit taking everything so personal. Even though you have defended the actions of Hamas (and said a Muslim who dated me was sinning - that one still cracks me up) I do no think you would carry anything like that out your self. You are emotional but descent I think. Neither can be said for Islamic activists.

 

[F0uad]

I have never made any secrete about what I think concerning Islam. I like many Muslims but I do not like Islam and have never ever claimed otherwise.

This is like saying i like Africans but i don't like black people. The people who follow Islam are Muslims without the Muslims there is no Islam so i am not sure what kind of logic your using here.

I never hold an individual responsible for what others have done and take people one at a time and assume they are honorable until proven otherwise. I have always acted in accordance with that. That has nothing to do with what I posted here. I said originally that Muslims celebrated 9/11 and other terrorist attacks in great numbers and I knew of only far less that times when denounced them. Someone wanted sources for that and so I provided them. If you have a problem with the statistics I suggest you take it up with Muslims or show they are seriously flawed. My opinion (good or bad) did not produce the statistics. They are what they are.

Everyone can read Western made polls without even showing the sources of those polls. I asked you to show me One-Source that is reliable and actually shows where the poll comes from that are in line with the ones you quoted. Moreover most of the polls you did quote had only to do with the foreign invaders of Iraq and Afghanistan and nothing with 9/11 for example you said that Morocco was in favor of 9/11 yet you forget that Morocco was the first country that publicly condemned the attack it even has close relationships with America to fight terrorism. Most of the Scholars and public in the middle-east and Muslim countries did condemn the attacks its not because of the media not showing you that it isn't there.

Because of length I deleted all the nations that were lesser known. That stats show that Islamic tolerance and even approval of terrorism is a significant universal opinion where ever it is practiced. If you claim there is an increase concerning Iraq and Afghanistan I have no reason to argue. I do find it odd that people would be mad at a country that rid them of a dictator that killed his own people by the tens of thousands. That country spent billions and lost lives limiting civilian casualties, and spent billions more to rebuild Iraq to a much better state then it was previously. I am sure some things went wrong along the way but if I lived there I would have welcomed not resented schools, roads, electric power, and clean water.

Well clearly you didn't know anything about Iraq before America invaded it you think it was a 3rd world country with nothing in it. Let me ask you this would you be happy if a foreign country imposed sanctions for over 10 years then drops in as a devil and bombs over 500,000 people and around 150 tons of explosions? Would your reaction be O please free us of this tyrant?

Saddam didn't even came to the numbers of Bush on hes first day.

I never claimed the majority of any country did. I said many (hundreds of thousands approved of it and other terrorist attacks) and only the occasional or obligatory veiled denouncement from officials was heard. Even if only 10%-40% approve of terrorism we are still saying that tens of millions of Muslims support killing innocent people on purpose. That is indefensible. To try anyway is wrong. I do not defend what the crusaders or the inquisition did and they were tiny compared to Islamic terrorism.

I advice to open a history book and thinking that the west or Christians only have inquisitions and crusades on there hand your wrong.

Yes, it makes me wonder why the Muslims were not grateful for our help. They took the billions we gave them and then when there was no war to fight began using it, the equipment, and training against anyone they did not like so we began destroying the bases and I am sure key members of cells as well. We have given countless countries military aid including Israel and I can't think of another one that took it and turned it on us. We rebuilt Germany and Japan as well and they didn't hate us for it. I will say that the Afghanistan issue is complex and there are many exceptions to the rule but few of them are honorable.

Please stop being ignorant do something about your small minded view and for once open an history book.

One of the main leaders in Afghanistan at the time was Bin Laden. Much of the war was fought by foreign Muslims. Russia invaded Afghanistan specifically it was going Islamic as fast as they could instead of communist. If you wish to separate secular Afghanistanians (whatever that would be) from Islamic Afghanistan it won't make much difference. We were not helping Islam as much as hurting Russia but Islam gained much in the course of things.

The help was only training its not that you guys put boots on the ground and actually helped more-ever stop saying Islam and stop portraying Afghanistan as the only country that has Muslims. The only interest America had in training Taliban and Bin-Laden was to fight communism and its influences nothing else. Also get your facts straight the wars were fought by Afghans lead by Foreign Muslims (Saudi's or Yemenis).

You would have to give specifics and as I said you wish to exclude the secular afghans that is fine with me.

Come on man. Inconvenient truth is still truth whether you like it or not. I have no idea which facts you are protesting but many of the ones in the last paragraph are a matter of personal experience and so very well known to me to be factual. I was there, I saw them happen. The statistics can't be dismissed (and there are at least ten times as much at the one site I used), Afghanistan is a well-known story and you gave no counter claims so what is it exactly besides inconvenience you reject?

I know very well you will resent anything that is less than flattery concerning Islam. That is hardly an arguemnt. Your post was 95% emotional dismissive and an actual clarification about Afganistan vs Islam which is pointless but in some small way true at times so I have no problem admitting partially, as well as another clarification about stats and Iraq which is partially true but has no effect. There was not a single counter proof in the whole post. I can accept terrible acts of Christians in history why can't you accept Islam's mistakes. Quit taking everything so personal. Even though you have defended the actions of Hamas (and said a Muslim who dated me was sinning - that one still cracks me up) I do no think you would carry anything like that out your self. You are emotional but descent I think. Neither can be said for Islamic activists.

You accuse me of emotional replies yet your quietly of it yourself your whole premises and ideas came out of emotional viewpoint. Your argument makes no sense. It goes as following if i understand you correctly: Muslims adore 9/11 yet the majority spoke against it and the numbers aren't even that great. Then you say Afghanistan is a example on how Islam failed but i don't see it that way at all i think just the opposite how the secular and christian world failed. Bin-laden was not the guy who bombed the place till ruble, He was not the one who killed over 250,000 innocent Muslim civilians in over 12 years, He was not the one who illegally trades heroin like the CIA, He was not the one who send out Death-Squads going from home to home, He was not the one opening prisons where people could be tortured, he was not the one imposing western democracy on people who do not belief in democracy and live in a Tribal society.

As for Hamas i never justified there attacks on innocent people but you did justify Israel's attacks on innocent people, don't lie next time.

 

[1robin]

This is like saying i like Africans but i don't like black people. The people who follow Islam are Muslims without the Muslims there is no Islam so i am not sure what kind of logic your using here.

Let me restate or fix what you said I believe. I like many Muslims in spite of their being Muslims or independently of it. I do not dislike anyone because they are a Muslim. I even like Islamic architecture and find Middle Eastern history more interesting because of them. Maybe tragic but interesting.

Everyone can read Western made polls without even showing the sources of those polls. I asked you to show me One-Source that is reliable and actually shows where the poll comes from that are in line with the ones you quoted. Moreover most of the polls you did quote had only to do with the foreign invaders of Iraq and Afghanistan and nothing with 9/11 for example you said that Morocco was in favor of 9/11 yet you forget that Morocco was the first country that publicly condemned the attack it even has close relationships with America to fight terrorism. Most of the Scholars and public in the middle-east and Muslim countries did condemn the attacks it’s not because of the media not showing you that it isn't there.

I gave the source for every single poll I provided. I even said that they would be categorically repudiated specifically because they said something Muslim's would not like. I think I gave at least 2 sources for most and can supply more if needed. I never said there were not nations or people that condemned the attack. In fact I said specifically there were. I said the ratio was not very flattering. The fact that 10% - 30% agree with terrorism in general is undefendable even if the 70% - 90% condemned it (which is certainly not the case). If they wish to fight then fight like men not like cruel savages.

Well clearly you didn't know anything about Iraq before America invaded it you think it was a 3rd world country with nothing in it. Let me ask you this would you be happy if a foreign country imposed sanctions for over 10 years then drops in as a devil and bombs over 500,000 people and around 150 tons of explosions? Would your reaction be O please free us of this tyrant?

That is impossible to answer. I think I would be mixed. Let me clarify what you claim first. I never thought about Iraq as 1st, 2nd, or 10th world country at all. I never thought of it at al until Hussein killed tens of thousands of his own people and then invaded his neighbor. If I knew what he had done I would be thankful if the US invaded, I would probably resent some of the accidents or mistakes in the process however no civilians were ever intentionally targeted and every effort possible at every cost imaginable was made to limit civilian casualties. Name another country that would have done that for one that neither targets women and children nor rebuild it better than it ever was. I think it more than 150 tons of Bombs and less than 500,000 casualties. So all's well that ends well? Actually, you mentioned 50,000 dead Iraqis, Neal. Some estimates put it much higher. The World Health Organization had an estimate; I think 120,000, 130,000, and some people believe more than that.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125065169
I might have resented some of the effects but would have thanked God for the result. They have more schools, better roads, more electricity; better food, medical improvements, more freedom, and independent press, women have rights, freedom of religion and conscience etc.... Keep in mind that 90% of whatever you believe are the casualties would never have been lost if lunatics from terrorist cells outside Iraq had not kept the war going month after month for no reason. The war was over in a few weeks the terror from outsiders took years to stop. Also keep in mind Sadam insane also kept them in perpetual war with Iran. Defending what terrorists have done is about the worst I can image to defend even if at times there are reasons.

Saddam didn't even came to the numbers of Bush on his first day.

If Mr Insane had got out of his neighbors country there would not have been one. Do not confuse incompetence with benevolence. If he was not such a terrible soldier he would have killed everyone in Iran and the US and probably Israel and Britain along with the Kurds. He just did not count on the wrath he had brought on himself. I always wanted to talk with anyone that would defend that monster. His second in command (I think, high ranking I know) of the air force was a Christian named Georges Sada. The only man Sudam trusted. He met Qusay in a bunker one day and he was on his way to assassinate every POW they had. Sada said he thought he would be killed but ordered him to stop and for some reason he did. If you wish to defend a maniacal lunatic because of incompetence you have a fool for a client.

I advice to open a history book and thinking that the west or Christians only have inquisitions and crusades on their hand your wrong.

I am aware of our faults and being in the military are aware of things we have done so terrible you would never guess possible and condemn them as well.

Please stop being ignorant do something about your small minded view and for once open an history book.

I will bet you anything you wish I can supply more college credits in history than you have. I am an amateur historian with over 50 sem hours in history alone. I also served in the military during the first war with that idiot.

The help was only training it’s not that you guys put boots on the ground and actually helped more-ever stop saying Islam and stop portraying Afghanistan as the only country that has Muslims.

If you are going to make up stuff at least be consistent. I never said, thought, or implied Afghanistan was the only Muslim country. That does not even make sense and I have made claims showing that a thousand times here. I never even said Afghanistan its self was all Muslim. Your temper is embarrassing you. I agree that training AND MORE MONEY than they had ever dreamed of was the help. We did not fight for them and did not care what happened to them. We wanted to hurt Russia. We had no idea that the AKs we gave them would be used on the ones that helped them.

The only interest America had in training Taliban and Bin-Laden was to fight communism and its influences nothing else. Also get your facts straight the wars were fought by Afghans lead by Foreign Muslims (Saudi's or Yemenis).

I agree with the first part and never said anything against the second. What are you talking about?

You would have to give specifics and as I said you wish to exclude the secular afghans that is fine with me.

No, I clarified my original statements to include that not all the fighters were Islamic. Not that I ever thought they were or it mattered. It does not affect my points.

Continued below:

 

[1robin]

You accuse me of emotional replies yet you’re quietly of it yourself your whole premises and ideas came out of emotional viewpoint. Your argument makes no sense. It goes as following if i understand you correctly: Muslims adore 9/11 yet the majority spoke against it and the numbers aren't even that great. Then you say Afghanistan is an example on how Islam failed but i don't see it that way at all i think just the opposite how the secular and Christian world failed. Bin-laden was not the guy who bombed the place till ruble, He was not the one who killed over 250,000 innocent Muslim civilians in over 12 years, He was not the one who illegally trades heroin like the CIA, He was not the one who send out Death-Squads going from home to home, He was not the one opening prisons where people could be tortured, he was not the one imposing western democracy on people who do not belief in democracy and live in a Tribal society.

You have lost your way a bit I think. My emotions did not produce those stats nor the ten times that much available. I never said anything like the second point. I never said anything about Afghanistan and the failure of Islam either. They won the war. Now it's 250,000 instead of 500,000. The most realistic figures I saw in the military and they are not shy with them were less than 100,000. Most of which came after the war during the terror for terrors sake nonsense which had no hope of anything but bloodshed and therefore no other purpose. That is 100,000 too many but compared with the hundreds of thousands that died in a single battle in WW1 or by a single bomb in WW2 and you have no idea how lethal war can be and many times is. I would not be surprised if the CIA had sold some heroin sometime but whether they did or not you have no way of knowing. No official orders ever sent out death squads in Iraq. All soldiers have the right to disobey immoral orders and do so many times. I doubt none were but if a few were they were local and not done under orders and probably the result of sniping or people dressed like civilians or children sent into markets with bombs. That happened more times than can be counted. It is truly remarkable how few revenge killings I troops carried out if any. He most certainly did torture people. I will give you some credit on the democracy even though it is superior to tribal government. We give freedom and you resent it. Always makes me wonder.

As for Hamas I never justified there attacks on innocent people but you did justify Israel's attacks on innocent people, don't lie next time.

FOuad you know well I do not call anyone a liar and will terminate a discussion with anyone who calls me one. I have no reason to lie so please do not do so again. I make mistakes but never intentionally make up anything. Reality is perfectly sufficient without my help. You justified Hamas, about all Hamas does is shoot rockets at kids and I do not remember being asked about any battle Israel fought where civilians were targeted. As Christ forgave the ones who nailed him to the cross try and relax, your posts become erratic when you get irritated. You do not credit the patience of Islam when you get irate with well-known statistics from multiple respected sources. You add to the stereotype every time you lose your temper over inconvenient claims.

 

[F0uad]

To be honest i don't find this discussion to be interesting at all i can keep answering your strange way of reasoning but at the end you will keep saying No and insist that you are right.

So instead of a reply ill ask you to say on the subject of the OP.

 

[1robin]

To be honest i don't find this discussion to be interesting at all i can keep answering your strange way of reasoning but at the end you will keep saying No and insist that you are right.

So instead of a reply ill ask you to say on the subject of the OP.

Ok but that does nothing to make those statistics any less true. Pew is an internationally respected source. I however like you and you have the right to think as you wish. Selah,

 

[F0uad]

Ok but that does nothing to make those statistics any less true. Pew is an internationally respected source. I however like you and you have the right to think as you wish. Selah,

I don't find Pew reliable at all maybe only for the US but not outside its borders.

 

[1robin]

I don't find Pew reliable at all maybe only for the US but not outside its borders.

If I ever meet a Muslim that will consider a poll that says anything negative about Islam reliable I will buy him a Daniel Webster cigar. Pew makes money because of it's reliability. Why would anyone trust a polling firm that gives bogus data all the time? It is not in their interest to be innacurate.

06/04/2007 - James Madison avowed the importance of public opinion when he wrote, in the Federalist Papers, “Public opinion sets bounds to every government, and is the real sovereign in every free one.” No wonder, then, that we still value public opinion—as long as we can trust those who do the polling.

In December, The Philadelphia Inquirer listed some of the “most quoted and more reliable” survey groups, which included the Pew Research Center as well as Eurobarometer, Gallup and Zogby. The center, the article noted, “publishes a constant flow of information from its ongoing surveys of public opinion about government actions, the media, use of the Internet and other high-visibility issues,” and can be accessed at www.pewresearchcenter.org.
Pew Research Center Named One of the Most Reliable (Spring 2007 Trust Magazine briefing) - The Pew Charitable Trusts

Two — Rasmussen Reports and the Pew Research Center — got the result dead right, Panagopoulos says. Of the other 21, 17 over-estimated support for Barack Obama, while just four said John McCain would receive a larger percentage of the vote than he actually did.
Poll Survey: Rasmussen, Pew Most Accurate in 2008


Accuracy nor facts have a nationality. Truth is truth. There is no American truth and Islamic truth. Claiming every one who says unflattering things about Islam is out to get Islam is counter productive besides being false.

 

[Pastadamus]

they said the land of Israel/palestine is only for jews , Natanyaho always ask Abas to admit that israel is Yahudi .(jewish only)

Judaism is not a race, it's a religion. Therefore saying that Israel is for people who follow the Jewish religion isn't racist.

In any case, Israel guarantees freedom of religion. The 'Jewish' population of Israel in fact practice many different religions. Israel as a "Jewish" state refers to it only in the historical sense of Israel being the cradle of Jewish heritage with many historical sites that are important to the people of the Jewish faith.

Also, Israel has the highest rate of per capita immigration of any country in the middle east. I doubt that a "racist" country would allow people from all over the world to immigrate there if they were truly racist.

 

[Shermana]

Pastadamus,

Judaism is not a race, it's a religion

Errrr, this brings up an issue of why Atheist Jews who eat Pork are allowed to live in Israel......There's clearly an ethnic component. Most of the early Zionist pioneers were Secular Labor Zionists.

 

[Pastadamus]

Pastadamus,

Errrr, this brings up an issue of why Atheist Jews who eat Pork are allowed to live in Israel......There's clearly an ethnic component. Most of the early Zionist pioneers were Secular Labor Zionists.

True, technically it can be both since a person can be Jewish if he has a Jewish mother even if he's a non-practicing Jew. I guess one can be "culturally Jewish" in the same way some people are "culturally xtian," But then again you can convert to Judaism, and live in Israel as well...so needless to say it's complicated.

But my point is saying that Israel is "racist" because some people call it a "Jewish country" is false. Not only are there Jewish people of all races in Israel, there are people of all faiths and creeds living there (unlike elsewhere in the Middle East where 99.9% of the population is Arab and Muslim).

Basically, Israel is probably the most diverse and least racist country in all of the Middle East.

If anything it is the Arab countries who are racist. I mean at its core, isn't the whole idea of Palestinian separatism based on the notion that the Palestinians are for some reason too good to be governed by non-palestinians? When you really strip it down it comes down to the fact that the Palestinians want their own ethnic palestinian state (which as Hamas has stated on many occasions is to be "judenrein"). How is that different from so-called "white nationalists" who want a white-only state in North America?

 

[Godobeyer]

Pastadamus,




Errrr, this brings up an issue of why Atheist Jews who eat Pork are allowed to live in Israel......There's clearly an ethnic component. Most of the early Zionist pioneers were Secular Labor Zionists.

edited

i asked this question before , is there a verse in the Torah said the atheist could be a jewish ?

btw ,judiasm is belief in Torah contian !!! ...etc, your statement made the judiasm 100% racist

 

[Leftimies]

True, technically it can be both since a person can be Jewish if he has a Jewish mother even if he's a non-practicing Jew. I guess one can be "culturally Jewish" in the same way some people are "culturally xtian," But then again you can convert to Judaism, and live in Israel as well...so needless to say it's complicated.

But my point is saying that Israel is "racist" because some people call it a "Jewish country" is false. Not only are there Jewish people of all races in Israel, there are people of all faiths and creeds living there (unlike elsewhere in the Middle East where 99.9% of the population is Arab and Muslim).

Basically, Israel is probably the most diverse and least racist country in all of the Middle East.

If anything it is the Arab countries who are racist. I mean at its core, isn't the whole idea of Palestinian separatism based on the notion that the Palestinians are for some reason too good to be governed by non-palestinians? When you really strip it down it comes down to the fact that the Palestinians want their own ethnic palestinian state (which as Hamas has stated on many occasions is to be "judenrein"). How is that different from so-called "white nationalists" who want a white-only state in North America?

The words of pure wisdom have been spoken. Thus I take a bow at ye

 

[Pastadamus]

Israeli-Arab, female and headed for the Knesset | The Times of Israel

Arab women in the Israeli Knesset.

For the Israel haters, can you name one Jewish woman in the Parliament, legislature, or even in the local government of any Arab or Muslim nation?