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Is resurrection of body required to live in heaven?

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Most religions, and specially Abrahamics teach that there is an after life.
In Christianity, it is believed that after death, the spirit lives on. Same with Islam.
If spirit can live on, what is the need that, later the physical body be resurrected?

Did Jesus have a physical body before He was born from womb of Mary?
Does the God Father have a physical body?
If from a Christian point of view, the answer is no, to both of these questions, that tells us, there is no need or advantage to have physical body after death.
Does Allah have a physical body in Islamic view? Why should there be a difference between Christianity and Islam regarding if Allah had a physical body or not, when both of these religions came from the same God, according to Muslims?
 

leov

Well-Known Member
Most religions, and specially Abrahamics teach that there is an after life.
In Christianity, it is believed that after death, the spirit lives on. Same with Islam.
If spirit can live on, what is the need that, later the physical body be resurrected?

Did Jesus have a physical body before He was born from womb of Mary?
Does the God Father have a physical body?
If from a Christian point of view, the answer is no, to both of these questions, that tells us, there is no need or advantage to have physical body after death.
Does Allah have a physical body in Islamic view? Why should there be a difference between Christianity and Islam regarding if Allah had a physical body or not, when both of these religions came from the same God, according to Muslims?
Absolutely not
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
After death in the astral plane, people have astral bodies but no longer have physical bodies which are dropped upon death.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
After death in the astral plane, people have astral bodies but no longer have physical bodies which are dropped upon death.

If you drop the "physical" body, what does one actually have? Would you even call it a body?
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
If you drop the "physical" body, what does one actually have? Would you even call it a body?
The frame of reference that I have is that we have many layers of bodies - the physical body, the astral body, the subtle body and the mental body.

For ordinary people like me, our experience is physical; our senses are focused such that we experience physicality.

For those rare ones who consciously experience other realms, the "senses" are of that realm.

Since I don't experience those realms, all I can do is to accept (or reject) those who speak or write of such things.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I don't know that there is an eternal spiritual heaven. There is supposed to be a resurrection, and a world to come for our bodies to live in.
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
If spirit can live on, what is the need that, later the physical body be resurrected?
Who says the spirit isn't physical?
In an infinite and eternal cosmos consisting of stuff moving through space, there's space--which is nothing--and stuff--which is something.
So, either spirit is nothing, in which case atheists are rational and reasonable, and all talk of spirit(s) is fantasy and nonsense; or spirit is stuff, in which case the atheists can still be rational and reasonable, but they are incorrect because no one has sufficiently described what stuff is and how some subsets of stuff can consist of stuff yet differ from other subsets of stuff.
Of course, if one does not believe in an infinite and eternal cosmos, one will have an even more difficult time trying to make sense of things I say.
Did Jesus have a physical body before He was born from womb of Mary?
Yeah, from his conception till his birth, he did. It would be remarkably odd if he didn't. So, did you really mean to ask if Jesus had a physical body "before He was born"?
Or were you asking if he had a pre-conception body?
I say: the jury hasn't come in with an answer to that, although there are Christians who say "Yea" and there are Christians who say "Nay", most notably, IMO, the Latter-day Saints (a.k.a. Mormons) and, I think, the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Personally, I haven't settled on an opinion, although the second article of the Apostle's Creed does affirm that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit (in Latin: “conceptus de Spiritu Sancto”; in Greek: “τòν συλληφθέντα ἐκ πνεύματος ἁγίου”).
Does the God Father have a physical body?
Is He something or nothing? If He's nothing, He neither has a body nor is He physical. If He's something, He's physical but not physical in any sense that we humans commonly think of as physical. Does He have a body? No. But, I say, a subset of God is capable of theophany, i.e. appearing in a perceivable manner.
If from a Christian point of view, the answer is no, to both of these questions, that tells us, there is no need or advantage to have physical body after death.
"Need or advantage" may be reasons to have a physical body after death, but until you figure out some way of describing what a spirit is and what continues and what does not continue after death, you're arguing against a position of your own construction.
Does Allah have a physical body in Islamic view?
That's a question for Muslims to answer.
Why should there be a difference between Christianity and Islam regarding if Allah had a physical body or not, when both of these religions came from the same God, according to Muslims?
"Both these religions came from the same God, according to Muslims"??? As a couple of Baha'i have said elsewhere: anybody can claim whatever they want to, but claiming something doesn't make it true. The facts of the matter are these:
  • Judaism and Islam share a similar concept of God, but do not share the same God.
  • Judaism and Christianity share the same God, but do not share the same concept of God.
  • Christianity and Islam share neither the same God nor the same concept of God.
  • Proof: Ask a Muslim if Allah has children? If the Muslim says: "No", then I wonder: Does Allah have a short memory? Or did he say "Yes", but Muhammad forgot?
    • Deuteronomy Chapter 14:
      • You are children of the LORD your God.
    • 2 Samuel, Chapter 7:
      • 8 "Further, say thus to My servant David: Thus said the LORD of Hosts: I took you from the pasture, from following the flock, to be ruler of My people Israel,
      • 9 and I have been with you wherever you went, ...
      • 12 When your days are done and you lie with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, one of your own issue, and I will establish his kingship.
      • 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish his royal throne forever.
      • 14 I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to Me.
    • Psalm, Chapter 2:
      • 7 Let me tell of the decree, the LORD said to me, "You are My son, I have fathered you this day.
    • Psalm, Chapter 72:
      • 4 Sing to God, chant hymns to His name; extol Him who rides the clouds; the LORD is His name. Exult in His presence, the father of orphans, the champion of widows, God, in His holy habitation.
    • Wisdom of Solomon
      • Chapter 1:
        • 16 But the ungodly by their words and deeds summoned death; considering him a friend, they pined away and made a covenant with him, because they are fit to belong to his company.
      • Chapter 2:
        • 1 For they reasoned unsoundly, saying to themselves, ...
        • 12 ‘Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training.
        • 13 He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord.
        • 14 He became to us a reproof of our thoughts;
        • 15 the very sight of him is a burden to us, because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange.
        • 16 We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father.
        • 17 Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life;
        • 18 for if the righteous man is God’s child, He will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries
        • 19 Let us test him with insult and torture, so that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance
        • 20 Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected.’
        • 21 Thus they reasoned, but they were led astray, for their wickedness blinded them,
        • 22 and they did not know the secret purposes of God, nor hoped for the wages of holiness, nor discerned the prize for blameless souls;
        • 23 for God created us for incorruption, and made us in the image of His own eternity,
        • 24 but through the devil’s envy death entered the world, and those who belong to his company experience it.
  • Now, go ask a Jew or a Christian: Does God the Father have children, and see what each one says.
  • And for goodness sake, don't ask an Atheist or an Agnostic. Their votes don't count.
 
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Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Anyone who thinks spiritual and physical mean the same thing is going to have problems communicating with others about the subject.

I asked:
Who says the spirit isn't physical?
And you responded with:
We all need to have a basic grasp of the English language to communicate.
So, it would appear that you don't believe that the spirit is physical. Is that correct?
If you don't believe that spirit is physical, I would welcome your attempt to educate me by explaining the difference. Are you up for trying?
If not, no harm, no foul. We disagree and have an irreconcilable difference; and there's an end to the matter.
If you are, however, willing to give it a shot, I suggest that we take my re-education to a One-on-One thread to discourage interference/interruption by others.
What say you?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Who says the spirit isn't physical?
Jesus.

John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If you drop the "physical" body, what does one actually have? Would you even call it a body?
One has a spiritual body, comprised of spiritual elements that exist in the spiritual realm. Of course, we cannot imagine what that is like since we have never experienced it. However, some have experienced it, and they communicated that experience through mediums.

“How does it feel to be 'dead'? One can't explain, because there's nothing in it! I simply felt free and light. My being seemed to have expanded. These are mere words. I can only tell you just this: that death is nothing unseemly or shocking. So simple is the 'passing along' experience that it beggars description. Others may have other experiences to relate of a more complex nature. I don't know......

When I lived in a physical body I never thought much about it. My health was fair. I knew very little about physiology. Now that I am living under other conditions I remain incurious as to that through which I express myself. By this I mean that I am still evidently in a body of some sort, but 'l' can tell you very little about it. It has no interest for me. It is convenient, does not ache or tire, seems similar in formation to my old body. There is a subtle difference, but I cannot attempt analysis.” Private Dowding, p. 17
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Jesus.

John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Balderdash. Where, in that single quote, does it say that that which is born of the Spirit, which is spirit, is not physical.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Balderdash. Where, in that single quote, does it say that that which is born of the Spirit, which is spirit, is not physical.
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

It says: "and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
It does not say: "that which is born of the Spirit is physical."

spirit: the nonphysical part of a person which is the seat of emotions and character; the soul.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=spirit+means
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Jesus.

John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
I've heard Chrisitans argue among themselves over what this verse means, but I've never heard them say that it means that the spiritual is physical.

Off the top of my head, the verse seems to be saying that you need the spiritual in addition to the physical, which would mean that they definitely so not mean the same thing.
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
It does not say: "that which is born of the Spirit is physical."
LOL! Then you're really gonna be confused by Philippians 3:21-22:
  • 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
  • 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
That which is physical consists of parts. What does your imagination tell you about those smallest parts?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I've heard Chrisitans argue among themselves over what this verse means, but I've never heard them say that it means that the spiritual is physical.

Off the top of my head, the verse seems to be saying that you need the spiritual in addition to the physical, which would mean that they definitely so not mean the same thing.
To me, that verse means that flesh is separate from spirit. They are not the same thing.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
LOL! Then you're really gonna be confused by Philippians 3:21-22:
  • 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
  • 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
That which is physical consists of parts. What does your imagination tell you about those smallest parts?
"For our citizenship is in heaven" where only spiritual bodies exist.

"who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory,"
to me means that the physical body will be transformed into a spiritual body.
 
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