Sonofason
Well-Known Member
Murder too is a sin. Should we just let God deal with that as well?
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Is premarital sex really a sin?
- Thread starter Doodlebug02
- Start date
Ewwwwwwww. You equate having pre-marital sex with murder?
I'm stunned, haven't words to express my awe at such a statement.
Sonofason
Well-Known Member
I suppose you are going to tell me that continually inserting a penis into a person's rectum does that person no harm. The medical sciences have already demonstrated that that is not the case. Homosexual sex is indeed far more physically and mentally destructive than heterosexual sex.
Also, I suppose that you believe that there are no learned components to a persons sexual identity, that sex and sexual identity is purely biological. I'd like to see your evidence. I assure you that children living in an environment which accepts homosexual behavior will be more prone to engaging in homosexual conduct.
And then there is of course the sin aspect. I suppose you like to consider yourself a Christian from what you've said, however, according to scripture,
"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
(Romans 1:26-32)
Lets have a look at that last verse.
New International Version
Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
New Living Translation
They know God's justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Who, having known the justice of God, did not understand that they who do such things, are worthy of death; and not only they that do them, but they also that consent to them that do them.
Where indeed does this place you in the hierarchy of God's eternal kingdom?
Sonofason
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I have more to add. Consider what the apostle John said. He said:
"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."
(2 John 1:9-11)
Sonofason: Please, with respect to you, it's not necessary to convince me that homosexuality is, well, unnatural.
I don't know anything about inserting a penis into a backside as it's abhorrent to me.
I see you quoted verse that those that committ those kinds of transgession deserve death.
O.K. I've read the same. I'm not about to advocate killing people for different
sexual orientation. I'm being both polite and politically correct as it's not in me to
deiberately offend people; any people.
About " consent to them". I understand what that means and I've never "consented" to sin or criminal behavior. Listen: I served over 22 years as a police officer in a very violent city and as you know cops see all manner of, well, odd behavior.
I was very badly beaten while arresting a very big, violent robber and now am crippled for the rest of my life. I hold no resentments towards anyone, any group.
The gay men I've known have never, ever, given the slightest hint that I was, was,????????, hummmmm???, a person that would become involved in a sexual way with that kind of nasty stuff.
I just can't find words to properly express myself on a public forum as I don't mean offense to anyone.
Re: 2John 1:9-11. I think maybe some of that might be taken out of context.
I don't know anything about inserting a penis into a backside as it's abhorrent to me.
I see you quoted verse that those that committ those kinds of transgession deserve death.
O.K. I've read the same. I'm not about to advocate killing people for different
sexual orientation. I'm being both polite and politically correct as it's not in me to
deiberately offend people; any people.
About " consent to them". I understand what that means and I've never "consented" to sin or criminal behavior. Listen: I served over 22 years as a police officer in a very violent city and as you know cops see all manner of, well, odd behavior.
I was very badly beaten while arresting a very big, violent robber and now am crippled for the rest of my life. I hold no resentments towards anyone, any group.
The gay men I've known have never, ever, given the slightest hint that I was, was,????????, hummmmm???, a person that would become involved in a sexual way with that kind of nasty stuff.
I just can't find words to properly express myself on a public forum as I don't mean offense to anyone.
Re: 2John 1:9-11. I think maybe some of that might be taken out of context.
Last edited:
Sonofason
Well-Known Member
I understand what you are saying. Honestly, I have in my heart a deep respect, love, and compassion for all individuals, gay people included. I would never want to see any harm come to any one of them. In fact, it may very well be that it is the gay person for which I have the greatest compassion and therefore concern for, and here's why. When a person commits sin, even if it is human nature to be sinful, that person is capable to receive forgiveness from God for those sins by turning to God, acknowledging those sins, and repenting from those sins. Sinners don't go to heaven. Repentant sinners go to heaven. How does one repent from their sins if they continue to abide in their sins? How exactly does one abide in Christ while also abiding in their sins. How indeed can one repent from the sins that he denies are sins? How can one be repentive to God for his sins, while blaming God for his sins? I'd say it's quite a conundrum.
There are few things that the Bible calls an abomination, and homosexuality seems to be one of them. The Bible declares within the contexts of the Law's of Moses that such persons deserve death. However, it is my understanding from the context of scripture that the rest of us do as well, which is why we all need to abide in Christ, which not only means believing that He exists, but that we obey His commands. And if we were to consider the Golden Rule, and the fact that we all deserve death for our sins, we ought never consider harming another individual for their sins. While there is no indication that Jesus Himself has ever mentioned homosexuality, Jesus has declared that not one jot nor one tittle should be removed from the Laws of Moses until everything is fulfilled, which seems to mean to me that those who remain in their sins shall be condemned for their sins.
The fact that people commit acts deserving of death is a reality we all have to face. But like Christ, we should of course forgive the sins of others. People might deserve death, but we don't have to give everyone what they deserve. We don't have to give anyone what they deserve, and reserve those judgments for God. In Christ, no saved person gets what he actually deserves.
But we cannot reserve all judgment for God can we? I mean, would it be beneficial to allow rapists and murderers to roam freely? Now I don't want anyone thinking that I think the harm done by homosexuals ought to be considered an equal comparison with that done by murderers and rapists. However, I believe that homosexuals do harm society. I don't believe it is biological. I believe it is learned behavior and because I believe it's acceptance is generally harmful to society, and especially to children, I believe that homosexual behaviors ought to be constrained.
Well I do appreciate your comment. This entire issue is quite exhausting for me. I am certainly torn.
sonofason:
I appreciate your compassion.
You wrote:
"The fact that people commit acts deserving of death is a reality we all have to face. But like Christ, we should of course forgive the sins of others. People might deserve death, but we don't have to give everyone what they deserve. We don't have to give anyone what they deserve, and reserve those judgments for God. In Christ, no saved person gets what he actually deserves."
That is certainly true. I've committed grevious sins of morality which I now regret.
The hardest to forgive is myself.
I suffered terribly in my life as a police officer for I believed in what I was doing.
I came out of that hell (good word, lets keep it) with p.t.s.d., depression and alcoholisim. Then there were the physical injuries that plague me to this day.
I'm not trolling for sympathy either, it's simply the way it is.
Years ago I went to a pain management psychologist at the request of worker comp.
It was those people that spotted the p.t.s.d and depression and I began therapy which has been most helpful. Therapy demands introspection and that can be difficult and painful is one is honest; when one realizes lifestyle errors. (call it sins) Like Dr. Phil says " one can't fix what one does not acknowlege ".
Many must face their own demons.
I morphed into Christianity and am most greatful for that.
I know that I helped many people in my career. I found corruption in the department and went to the F.B.I. with the information I gathered resulting in some of those I called "friend" being Federally indicted. That was very hard on me tho I know it was the right thing to do.
I certainly haven't been given what I deserve, I doubt any human does.
I thank God for His mercy and the extreme sacrifice Jesus made for all who would just believe.
Isn't that really a miracle of grace?
On an off topic side note: I need no sympathy from anyone; understanding would be nice tho.
After I took a paultry disability pension in 1994 and endured nine months, 5 days a week, of physical therapy learning to walk right again I realized that I had no work.
There is dignity in work. I learned I could get help from the State for education.
Since I had just turned 49 I decided to start college.
What?!
Yeah and I loved every minute. I got my degree in engineering then went to a strict Christian Univeristy for my bachelors in human resrources. It was there that I was given an N.I.V. Study Bible and was required to actually read the thing then write essays on the subject material. I got exposed to God, Jesus, the miracles that can happen to people that pray for help and guidance. I deserve nothing good yet I'm alive and walking and learning more about God, Jesus and PEOPLE. Blessed people.
Perhaps that was a micacle in itself.
I was 53 when G.M. hired me as a supervisor. Wow. That lasted 8 years until injuries progressed into spinal arthritis from which I suffer all day every day.
So what? I can walk, tho I'm 68 I have a most wonderful 15 year old son who is the light of my life. (how'd that happen?)
Last week I got engaged to a most wonderful Christian woman who cares for her 40 year old shcizophrenic daughter. I have come to love her also. She can be a challenge but is God's child also.
In 1994 I got after a bad person I had a warrant for. The arrest turned into a situation much like the terrible Furgson mess. The suspect tried to take my pistol but it was secure in a retention holster. He was literally beating me to death.
For a fleeting moment I thought I should shoot him, tho he was unarmed he was much, much, bigger than I and 20 years younger and black man in the "hood".
I'm white.
I didn't kill him. Wonder does anyone really understand how blessed I am for not making the wrong decision? I would have been justified by a grand jury due to my injuries and the desparity of force(his size and brutality).
I doubt I could have justified myself.
Lest anyone think me a woosy let me just say I turned the fight around and beat HIS arse into submission.
I'm rambling, a sure sign of old age.
I appreciate your compassion.
You wrote:
"The fact that people commit acts deserving of death is a reality we all have to face. But like Christ, we should of course forgive the sins of others. People might deserve death, but we don't have to give everyone what they deserve. We don't have to give anyone what they deserve, and reserve those judgments for God. In Christ, no saved person gets what he actually deserves."
That is certainly true. I've committed grevious sins of morality which I now regret.
The hardest to forgive is myself.
I suffered terribly in my life as a police officer for I believed in what I was doing.
I came out of that hell (good word, lets keep it) with p.t.s.d., depression and alcoholisim. Then there were the physical injuries that plague me to this day.
I'm not trolling for sympathy either, it's simply the way it is.
Years ago I went to a pain management psychologist at the request of worker comp.
It was those people that spotted the p.t.s.d and depression and I began therapy which has been most helpful. Therapy demands introspection and that can be difficult and painful is one is honest; when one realizes lifestyle errors. (call it sins) Like Dr. Phil says " one can't fix what one does not acknowlege ".
Many must face their own demons.
I morphed into Christianity and am most greatful for that.
I know that I helped many people in my career. I found corruption in the department and went to the F.B.I. with the information I gathered resulting in some of those I called "friend" being Federally indicted. That was very hard on me tho I know it was the right thing to do.
I certainly haven't been given what I deserve, I doubt any human does.
I thank God for His mercy and the extreme sacrifice Jesus made for all who would just believe.
Isn't that really a miracle of grace?
On an off topic side note: I need no sympathy from anyone; understanding would be nice tho.
After I took a paultry disability pension in 1994 and endured nine months, 5 days a week, of physical therapy learning to walk right again I realized that I had no work.
There is dignity in work. I learned I could get help from the State for education.
Since I had just turned 49 I decided to start college.
What?!Yeah and I loved every minute. I got my degree in engineering then went to a strict Christian Univeristy for my bachelors in human resrources. It was there that I was given an N.I.V. Study Bible and was required to actually read the thing then write essays on the subject material. I got exposed to God, Jesus, the miracles that can happen to people that pray for help and guidance. I deserve nothing good yet I'm alive and walking and learning more about God, Jesus and PEOPLE. Blessed people.
Perhaps that was a micacle in itself.
I was 53 when G.M. hired me as a supervisor. Wow. That lasted 8 years until injuries progressed into spinal arthritis from which I suffer all day every day.
So what? I can walk, tho I'm 68 I have a most wonderful 15 year old son who is the light of my life. (how'd that happen?
)Last week I got engaged to a most wonderful Christian woman who cares for her 40 year old shcizophrenic daughter. I have come to love her also. She can be a challenge but is God's child also.
In 1994 I got after a bad person I had a warrant for. The arrest turned into a situation much like the terrible Furgson mess. The suspect tried to take my pistol but it was secure in a retention holster. He was literally beating me to death.
For a fleeting moment I thought I should shoot him, tho he was unarmed he was much, much, bigger than I and 20 years younger and black man in the "hood".
I'm white.
I didn't kill him. Wonder does anyone really understand how blessed I am for not making the wrong decision? I would have been justified by a grand jury due to my injuries and the desparity of force(his size and brutality).
I doubt I could have justified myself.
Lest anyone think me a woosy let me just say I turned the fight around and beat HIS arse into submission.
I'm rambling, a sure sign of old age.
Sonofason
Well-Known Member
No worries, I've thoroughly enjoyed hearing your story, and do thank you for sharing it with me.sonofason:
I appreciate your compassion.
You wrote:
"The fact that people commit acts deserving of death is a reality we all have to face. But like Christ, we should of course forgive the sins of others. People might deserve death, but we don't have to give everyone what they deserve. We don't have to give anyone what they deserve, and reserve those judgments for God. In Christ, no saved person gets what he actually deserves."
That is certainly true. I've committed grevious sins of morality which I now regret.
The hardest to forgive is myself.
I suffered terribly in my life as a police officer for I believed in what I was doing.
I came out of that hell (good word, lets keep it) with p.t.s.d., depression and alcoholisim. Then there were the physical injuries that plague me to this day.
I'm not trolling for sympathy either, it's simply the way it is.
Years ago I went to a pain management psychologist at the request of worker comp.
It was those people that spotted the p.t.s.d and depression and I began therapy which has been most helpful. Therapy demands introspection and that can be difficult and painful is one is honest; when one realizes lifestyle errors. (call it sins) Like Dr. Phil says " one can't fix what one does not acknowlege ".
Many must face their own demons.
I morphed into Christianity and am most greatful for that.
I know that I helped many people in my career. I found corruption in the department and went to the F.B.I. with the information I gathered resulting in some of those I called "friend" being Federally indicted. That was very hard on me tho I know it was the right thing to do.
I certainly haven't been given what I deserve, I doubt any human does.
I thank God for His mercy and the extreme sacrifice Jesus made for all who would just believe.
Isn't that really a miracle of grace?
On an off topic side note: I need no sympathy from anyone; understanding would be nice tho.
After I took a paultry disability pension in 1994 and endured nine months, 5 days a week, of physical therapy learning to walk right again I realized that I had no work.
There is dignity in work. I learned I could get help from the State for education.
Since I had just turned 49 I decided to start college.
Yeah and I loved every minute. I got my degree in engineering then went to a strict Christian Univeristy for my bachelors in human resrources. It was there that I was given an N.I.V. Study Bible and was required to actually read the thing then write essays on the subject material. I got exposed to God, Jesus, the miracles that can happen to people that pray for help and guidance. I deserve nothing good yet I'm alive and walking and learning more about God, Jesus and PEOPLE. Blessed people.
Perhaps that was a micacle in itself.
I was 53 when G.M. hired me as a supervisor. Wow. That lasted 8 years until injuries progressed into spinal arthritis from which I suffer all day every day.
So what? I can walk, tho I'm 68 I have a most wonderful 15 year old son who is the light of my life. (how'd that happen?
Last week I got engaged to a most wonderful Christian woman who cares for her 40 year old shcizophrenic daughter. I have come to love her also. She can be a challenge but is God's child also.
In 1994 I got after a bad person I had a warrant for. The arrest turned into a situation much like the terrible Furgson mess. The suspect tried to take my pistol but it was secure in a retention holster. He was literally beating me to death.
For a fleeting moment I thought I should shoot him, tho he was unarmed he was much, much, bigger than I and 20 years younger and black man in the "hood".
I'm white.
I didn't kill him. Wonder does anyone really understand how blessed I am for not making the wrong decision? I would have been justified by a grand jury due to my injuries and the desparity of force(his size and brutality).
I doubt I could have justified myself.
Lest anyone think me a woosy let me just say I turned the fight around and beat HIS arse into submission.
I'm rambling, a sure sign of old age.
God is in the business of refining gold you know. It seems to me He's doing a good job.
Somehow God has used you to place me back into the fire.
I'm guessing He saw some impurities in me that needed to be dealt with.
I dont wish to see anyone hurt in any way. I don't desire for people to be hurt by things that I say. But thanks to you, I realize that I've been far too harsh, too blunt, and without measure.
Thank you
Yes
Oh how I love the Word of God!
Premarital sex is a sin, but it is a sin that can be made right.
For once we agree.
McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
So can marriage...
But marriage is a licence to sin and procreate.
McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Which does not change the fact that it can lead to unwanted pregnancies, unnecessary abortions and moral decadence.
Sonofason
Well-Known Member
I would like to examine this idea that is presently being discussed, that of marriage, and premarital sex. To do this I should first ask a few questions.
Did Adam marry Eve?
If they were married, where is the evidence of the marriage ceremony?
How do we know they were married?
What exactly is it to be married?
It appears to me that the word marriage (as in marriage ceremony requiring a priest or minister, or justice of the peace, was not used until the 14th century.
Marry - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Consider the following verse:
"But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."
(Corinthians 7:9)
We should look at this in the Greek, the language in which the verse was written by Paul, an Apostle of Jesus Christ.
"εἰ δὲ οὐκ ἐγκρατεύονται γαμησάτωσαν κρεῖσσον γάρ ἐστιν γαμῆσαι ἢ πυροῦσθαι"
The word here that most English bibles are translating the word marry from is "γαμῆσαι"
This word means "to have sexual intercourse" Actually γαμήσω is the perfect translation of the more vulgar word for having sexual intercourse, which is the F word.
Indeed, what Paul is saying here is that it is better to have sex than it is to burn with passion.
So why do so many Christians believe that the social construct of marriage is Biblical at all? It isn't. A man and a woman are bound to one another by having sex. That is marriage. Once you have sex for the first time, you are married. There is no such thing as premarital sex. Premarital sex is marriage.
Muffled
Jesus in me
IOW I beleive it doesn't matter to you what God thinks about it becuase what you think is more important.
Muffled
Jesus in me
So are you saying this means something other than what the translation says.
Ge 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
I believe the cleaving comes first and then the one flesh.
Luk 1:27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.
34 And Mary said unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
I believe "know" means "sex" in this case.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I beleive the Bible mentions prostitutes and they aren't married.
Sonofason
Well-Known Member
Indeed, Mary and Joseph had made a promise of uniting as one flesh. They promised (betrothal) one another that they would not have sex with anyone else, and that they would become married (have sex and become man and wife) with one another.