Is nationality important?

[kai]

I'm an Anglophile. I own every episode of Father Ted, AbFab, Vicar of Dibley, Black Adder, Goodnight Sweetheart, Coupling, and most of Fawlty Towers and Keeping Up Appearances. Also, every Shakespeare play ever made into a movie with Kenneth Branaugh in it.

I also own just about every book written by CS Lewis and GK Chesterton, and I know not only all the names of Henry VII wives, but also how they died and how many children they had - and their names. And who they married.

Finally, one of my ancestors sailed with Captain Cooke on the Endeavor.

That ought to count for something! I may be more British than some Brits!

Kathryn if you like Tea, fish and chips , and having the odd one too many , i am sure we can accept you as an honorary Brit.:yes:




but be warned its not all a bed of roses, there are those that dont appreciate our "Britishness" (especially across the English Channel) Le nudge, nudge ,wink ,wink

 

[Valjean]

Pride in being an Australian, Kiwi or Trobriand Islander implies one is happy not to be an American, Nigerian or Iranian. It Implies an attitude of superiority. National pride, ie: patriotism, is arrogant, divisive, and dangerous.

Nationalists and patriots have been known to exploit people in 'other' countries. Patriots will invade, bomb, and kill people outside their national tribe -- people they've never met and who've never done them any harm.

There is no duty of allegience. Just beause you chance to be born in a region claimed by 'X' government doesn't mean you have to share that government's opinions, grievances, friends or enemies. The government has no claim on you.
Tribalism is fine if you live in a band of hunter-gatherers, expand the instinct to a national level though, and war and strife is the inevitable result.

 

[Caladan]

There is no duty of allegience. Just beause you chance to be born in a region claimed by 'X' government doesn't mean you have to share that government's opinions, grievances, friends or enemies. The government has no claim on you.
Tribalism is fine if you live in a band of hunter-gatherers, expand the instinct to a national level though, and war and strife is the inevitable result.

I find it hard to believe that this is your understanding of patriotism. patriotism has nothing to do with conforming to the trends of a government. patriotism means defiance to government when the need arises. perhaps I fail to understand the political map of your nations, maybe there is a great lack of political diversity there, but in Israel, there are many political options, many political parties, and many political opinions. patriotism may be a guiding force in the parties of the left, the parties of the right, and anything which is in between, all the different political agendas and opinions do not contradict a healthy sense of patriotism.
what you obviously describe is NATIONALISM, not patriotism.
Nationalism comes with a sense of superiority and inability to be critical of one's nation, the guiding force behind patriotism on the other hand is dedication and love to one's nation.
as early as ancient Greece, we can see that to the great thinkers such as Socrates, patriotism meant criticizing ones governing institutions when the need arises, and a desire to better one's country.

 

[Kathryn]

Wow! That is an impressive list. I would love to see the American version of 'Coupling'. Never got into the Vicar of Dibley but I am the double of Clive Mantle. You ever been over here? I was in Whitby for the Goth Weekend on Haloween.

I've never been but I plan to go soon. We may go in 2011 - we're saving for a big trip across the pond but not yet sure whether we'll go to the UK or Germany. My vote is for the UK but my son really wants to go to Germany and the trip is his graduation present, so...we'll see.

 

[Kathryn]

[

]Kathryn if you like Tea, fish and chips , and having the odd one too many , i am sure we can accept you as an honorary Brit.:yes:

Love tea, love fish and chips (the REAL chips, not french fries - with vinegar on them!) but I don't know what an odd one too many is, though it sounds delightful!

but be warned its not all a bed of roses, there are those that dont appreciate our "Britishness" (especially across the English Channel) Le nudge, nudge ,wink ,wink

Hey, I know the feeling - I'm an American...definitely underappreciated!

 

[katiafish]

I am Russian born in Estonia living for past 13 years in London. What nationality i am? No idea. I relate more to the British culture than Russian culture.

The only time I bring up my nationality is when I am playing on cultural stereotypes, like "Of course I am direct, i am Russian!" or my favorite: "I am allowed to make spelling mistakes, I am a foreigner!"

 

[kai]

[

Love tea, love fish and chips (the REAL chips, not french fries - with vinegar on them!) but I don't know what an odd one too many is, though it sounds delightful!



Hey, I know the feeling - I'm an American...definitely underappreciated!

it means having the tendency to get drunk occasionally some might say its a blight on the working classes but after a few sherberts who cares.

 

[sandandfoam]

it means having the tendency to get drunk occasionally some might say its a blight on the working classes but after a few sherberts who cares.

I thought working was the blight of the drinking classes

 

[Herr Heinrich]

I think it is good to be a worldly-minded individual. One should learn about other cultures and respect them. Also learning a foreign language I believe is one of the best things you can do. Now I also believe that a countries traditional culture should be retained and cherished. We seem to have this problem in the world today that many native cultures are going extinct. I do not think that a person should be violent or hateful because of their nationality. I will use the example of Germany because I am German and have been studying German for a while. Germany partly because of its extreme nationalism wanted to conquer other nations. Now that is wrong. Instead Ethnic Germans should have put their efforts into retaining their heritage among their own people. Nowadays they have a loss of identity. That is very sad. Denmark is a good example of what I am talking about. Today they are one of the happiest nations in the world and have a strong sense of identity. They are also very peaceful.

 

[Falvlun]

Pride in being an Australian, Kiwi or Trobriand Islander implies one is happy not to be an American, Nigerian or Iranian. It Implies an attitude of superiority. National pride, ie: patriotism, is arrogant, divisive, and dangerous.

Not necessarily. You can be happy to be X without any negative feelings towards Y. For example, I took pleasure in playing my flute; I was proud to be able to play this instrument. But I did not look down upon the clarinets or trombones. I appreciated them for what they had to offer to the music. I stood in awe of the violinists and bassoonists, for mastering an instrument I perceived as more difficult.

I think pride in one's country follows along the same lines. At least it does for me. I'm happy to be an American; I am proud of the many things the USA does and can do. I also realize my country's limitations, and admire those other countries that I believe have tackled certain problems more productively.

I can't exactly describe the sort of feelings I get about my country. The closest I can think of is this: think of how your mom makes you feel. Kind of a comfortable, belonging sort of feeling, along with a recognition of what she has done for you. These feelings are not predicated upon feeling your mom is superior to all other moms. It's simply about how your particular mom makes you, personally, feel.

 

[kai]

I thought working was the blight of the drinking classes

i stand corrected sir

 

[Valjean]

I find it hard to believe that this is your understanding of patriotism. patriotism has nothing to do with conforming to the trends of a government. patriotism means defiance to government when the need arises. perhaps I fail to understand the political map of your nations, maybe there is a great lack of political diversity there, but in Israel, there are many political options, many political parties, and many political opinions. patriotism may be a guiding force in the parties of the left, the parties of the right, and anything which is in between, all the different political agendas and opinions do not contradict a healthy sense of patriotism.
what you obviously describe is NATIONALISM, not patriotism.
Nationalism comes with a sense of superiority and inability to be critical of one's nation, the guiding force behind patriotism on the other hand is dedication and love to one's nation.
as early as ancient Greece, we can see that to the great thinkers such as Socrates, patriotism meant criticizing ones governing institutions when the need arises, and a desire to better one's country.

Nationalism is to patriotism what influenza is to a cold. Both are undesirable.

Proximity or tribalism should play no part in one's treatment of fellow beings.
Do you think patriotism would be a desirable trait for me? "My" country has run roughshod over the rest of the world for more than a century, with no thought to the welfare of any but its own tribe. Great suffering has resulted. How should I be anything but ashamed to identify myself with such a rapacious, imperialist power?

 

[Caladan]

Nationalism is to patriotism what influenza is to a cold. Both are undesirable.

Proximity or tribalism should play no part in one's treatment of fellow beings.
Do you think patriotism would be a desirable trait for me? "My" country has run roughshod over the rest of the world for more than a century, with no thought to the welfare of any but its own tribe. Great suffering has resulted. How should I be anything but ashamed to identify myself with such a rapacious, imperialist power?

No offense, but to me this is a pretty depressive psychology. no where have I claimed that to feel a connection to the people around your, you need to support any questionable agenda which is linked to your local politics. one can almost conclude that it is af if you feel completely alienated from your surroundings. also, you keep bringing issues which should not be on this table of discussion, patriotism should come as no obstacle in a healthy relationship with other human beings nor does it mean capitulation to the agendas of the central power. its still seems that you are confused between nationalism and patriotism.

Here is what Orwell had to say:

Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By "patriotism" I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseperable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality.

Full article by Orwell: http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/nationalism.html

On his own patriotism, Gandhi said:

My patriotism is not an exclusive thing. It is all-embracing and I should reject that patriotism which sought to mount the distress or exploitation of other nationalities.

By patriotism I mean the welfare of the whole people, if I secure it at the hands of my opponent, I should bow down my head to him.

 

[Valjean]

You perceive my agenda as local?!
Quite the opposite. My agenda is global. This is what I mean when I reject patriotism/ nationalism/ chauvinism/ nazism. I give the interests of a japanese, Inuit ot Hottentot exactly the same weight as those of my immediate neighbors.
If my "local politics" negatively impacts the planet or the worldwide community I reject it out-of-hand, no matter how it might benefit me or my local region.
We are all the same people; the same tribe. All men are brothers.

 

[Falvlun]

You perceive my agenda as local?!
Quite the opposite. My agenda is global. This is what I mean when I reject patriotism/ nationalism/ chauvinism/ nazism. I give the interests of a japanese, Inuit ot Hottentot exactly the same weight as those of my immediate neighbors.
If my "local politics" negatively impacts the planet or the worldwide community I reject it out-of-hand, no matter how it might benefit me or my local region.
We are all the same people; the same tribe. All men are brothers.

You are still making the assumption that pride in one's homeland equates to feeling that your homeland is superior to all other homelands, and anyone from a different homeland is therefore inferior to yourself. This is not necessarily the case, as I tried to show in my previous post.

 

[musamasoud]

nationalism provides a framework to protect and foster a "language", without citizens or "readers/writers" would die. So yes, it is very important if you want to maintain your language.

 

[Kathryn]

Patriotism is not just about pride, though it may include pride. It's also about affection, loyalty, dedication, protectiveness, determination, joy, and a deep desire for peace.

Depending on the setting, sometimes when I sing "America the Beautiful," I literally get tears in my eyes. There have been times when I've stood and watched the American flag fluttering overhead and sobbed with gratitude or deep concern (sending your child to a war zone and then welcoming him back after 18 months and 44 dead buddies will do that to you). The Sunday after 9/11 our church was packed, with many people we didn't know, and every color of skin you can imagine. As we sang the national anthem, strangers stepped out into the aisles and hugged other strangers with tears streaming down their faces. I can assure you that the overwhelming emotion in that room was not pride or even an urge to go to war, even though we had been attacked as a nation. The emotion was overwhelmingly one of love for one's neighbor, regardless of skin color or religious affiliation, class or creed or sexual preference.

I have lived overseas for about six years of my life, in the Orient and Europe. Each time that I've moved back home (how easily that phrase "home" comes to me, even though I had a house in these other countries!), as we've touched down on US soil, my heart has filled with gratitude.

I enjoyed living overseas, and gained new insights and more affection and respect for other cultures along the way. However, my travels and experiences have also made me realize just how much I love the United States, warts and all, and our way of life, imperfect as it may be.

I realize - yes, I am a member of the universal human race, but I am also an American - and very grateful to be one.

 

[sandandfoam]

a deep desire for peace.

In 'Prejudice, conflict and conflict reduction' (2007) John Dixon concludes that "it is revealing that violent conflict is often enacted not in the name of irrational attitudes or stereotypes, but in the name of apparently positive moral values such as 'justice', 'rights', 'community' and even 'peace'."

 

[Perfect Circle]

Can't say i'm a fan of being instantly assumed to be American. I resent that.

To be totally honest... If someone were to ask me which nation's culture was closest to the US, I would instantly answer Australia.

 

[Perfect Circle]

well it may not be pc these days but i am proud to be both British and English. and its very important to me. Its part of my make up my identity.

I don't feel like there's anything wrong with that... And as an American, I feel like we've got eachothers back. Ya know?... WW2 style

That being said, I would love to visit. Mostly because I hear that British girls like southern American guys...