Is Mysticism possible in an Atheistic worldview

[Sha'irullah]

The Atheistic worldview is usually materialistic to a greater extent although this is not a requirement for atheism of course. Materialism does not lead into nihilism as many theists would believe.
The usual atheist position about the world is naturalism not materialism believe it or not. More importantly neither philosophies are the same thing.

I am an atheist and a mystic although it is not in the woo sense of the term. I simply hold onto the belief that subjective opinions, experiences, and practices lead to a more fruitful life. Acknowledging and self interpreting the world into something meaningful is what I have always labelled as mysticism. Mythical thinking along is a result of mysticism and a perfect example of it.

 

[Windwalker]

I am an atheist and a mystic although it is not in the woo sense of the term. I simply hold onto the belief that subjective opinions, experiences, and practices lead to a more fruitful life. Acknowledging and self interpreting the world into something meaningful is what I have always labelled as mysticism. Mythical thinking along is a result of mysticism and a perfect example of it.

I thought I was with you in your thinking here, but I'm not so sure. What do you mean by mysticism? Do you practice meditation and enter into altered states of consciousness, thereby gaining perspective otherwise not affording by normal egoic thinking and pursuits of rational inquiry? I have much to say to your points, but I wish to clarify this at the outset, if you would oblige?

 

[Windwalker]

... in the meantime, there is something from the mystic and teacher Sri Aurobindo I believe will pertain to this discussion one I know we're on the same page. Hopefully, in the meantime it will inspire some thought and conversation:

It is necessary, therefore, that advancing Knowledge should base herself on a clear, pure and disciplined intellect. It is necessary, too, that she should correct her errors sometimes by a return to the restraint of sensible fact, the concrete realities of the physical world. The touch of Earth is always reinvigorating to the son of Earth, even when he seeks a supraphysical Knowledge. It may even be said that the supraphysical can only be really mastered in its fullness – to its heights we can always search– when we keep our feet firmly on the physical. “Earth is His footing,” says the Upanishad whenever it imagines the Self that manifests in the universe. And it is certainly the fact the wider we extend and the surer we make our knowledge of the physical world, the wider and surer becomes our foundation for the higher knowledge, even for the highest, even for the Brahmavidya.

In emerging, therefore, out of the materialistic period of human Knowledge we must be careful that we do not rashly condemn what we are leaving or throw away even one tittle of its gains, before we can summon perceptions and powers that are well grasped and secure, to occupy their place. Rather we shall observe with respect and wonder the work that Atheism had done for the Divine and admire the services that Agnosticism has rendered in preparing the illimitable increase of knowledge. In our world error is continually the handmaid and pathfinder of Truth; for error is really a half-truth that stumbles because of its limitations; often it is Truth that wears a disguise in order to arrive unobserved near to its goal. Well, if it could always be, as it has been in the great period we are leaving, the faithful handmaid, severe, conscientious, clean-handed, luminous within its limits, a half-truth and not a reckless and presumptuous aberration.

~Sri Aurobindo, The Life Divine, pg 12,13
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Let me know your thoughts?

 

[Vouthon]

I would say yes, Sam Harris is one of the world's most outspoken atheists and critics of religion, yet he is a self-confessd 'mystic' or rather advocate of mysticism. He once said that he often reads Meister Eckhart and 'gets him'. You are correct that modern atheism is a materialistic worldview, nonetheless the sense of awe and mystery with which irreligious thinkers such as Carl Eagan approach the wonders of the universe, reaches heights that at the very least compare with the noblest insights of famous mystics from the great world religions and spiritual traditions.

 

[Willamena]

The Atheistic worldview is usually materialistic to a greater extent although this is not a requirement for atheism of course. Materialism does not lead into nihilism as many theists would believe.
The usual atheist position about the world is naturalism not materialism believe it or not. More importantly neither philosophies are the same thing.

I am an atheist and a mystic although it is not in the woo sense of the term. I simply hold onto the belief that subjective opinions, experiences, and practices lead to a more fruitful life. Acknowledging and self interpreting the world into something meaningful is what I have always labelled as mysticism. Mythical thinking along is a result of mysticism and a perfect example of it.

Depends on what you think of as mysticism, but that said, of course, it's entirely possible.

 

[LuisDantas]

I am entirely unclear on what a mystic makes, but surely, atheism should not be an obstacle to anything worth seeking, at least in the religious field.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I thought I was with you in your thinking here, but I'm not so sure. What do you mean by mysticism? Do you practice meditation and enter into altered states of consciousness, thereby gaining perspective otherwise not affording by normal egoic thinking and pursuits of rational inquiry? I have much to say to your points, but I wish to clarify this at the outset, if you would oblige?

By mysticism I mean inward knowledge(subjective). To be able to perceive things that are only known to yourself. Emotions are a perfect example along with character development.

 

[LuisDantas]

By mysticism I mean inward knowledge(subjective). To be able to perceive things that are only known to yourself. Emotions are a perfect example along with character development.

Well, in that case, it is not even conceivable that atheism could be a disadvantage, now is it?

 

[Sha'irullah]

Well, in that case, it is not even conceivable that atheism could be a disadvantage, now is it?

One of my main disagreements with the concept of mysticism is religion. If you are truly interest in mysticism or that which is concealed then religion is just an esoteric 2 ton weight on your shoulders.
All of the mystics found in religion are usually heretics are have teachings counter to the norm.
Being departed from religion or even theism seems to be the better position to have a sense of mysticism

 

[Willamena]

To be able to perceive things that are only known to yourself.

The term for that is private, rather than subjective.

 

[LuisDantas]

One of my main disagreements with the concept of mysticism is religion. If you are truly interest in mysticism or that which is concealed then religion is just an esoteric 2 ton weight on your shoulders.

Maybe it is because I see Dharma as the natural and superior approach for religion, but the distinction between religoin and mysticism always seemed ephemeral and arbitrary to me. Aren't the two supposed to be essentially synonimous?

 

[Sha'irullah]

Maybe it is because I see Dharma as the natural and superior approach for religion, but the distinction between religoin and mysticism always seemed ephemeral and arbitrary to me. Aren't the two supposed to be essentially synonimous?

That is the issue, it is only mystical to the first person. Abraham was a mystic but the minute he spread the message to anyone else the message was not mystical. This is like how Thomas Paine describes revelation and says that revelation ceases to be revelation until it is heard by someone else.

Dharma is a mystic teaching by default as with most South and East Asian religions in general. This is why Abrahamic religions have mystical sub groups while East and South Asian ones primarily don't.

 

[Sha'irullah]

The term for that is private, rather than subjective.

The first part is private until you actually practice it. Subjectivity enters once you takes experiences and form meaning from them.

 

[Windwalker]

By mysticism I mean inward knowledge(subjective).

Again, I know these words. But how do you mean them? I do not consider introspection, for instance, to be mysticism. I consider it along the lines of philosophy, or perhaps psychology. Mysticism includes that, but transcends that by several magnitudes or so. Introspection typically doesn't involved altered states of consciousness. Mysticism definitely does.

To be able to perceive things that are only known to yourself. Emotions are a perfect example along with character development.

I would say that mysticism sees what others see as well. For instance, I read Meister Eckhart from the 14th century, and what he says identically mirrors my own experiences in deep meditation. This something not only known to myself, but many, many others as well.

May I ask what practices do you do to gain these insights you call mystical?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Under my understanding of Mysticism, it isn't strictly related to religion. I'd say that mysticism is unlocking the tools for a better understanding of your point in reality and a stronger relationship between you and the speculated world. A cosmologist could be a mystic, a quantum physicist could be a mystic, Einstein's theory of relativity could be deemed mystical.

It all just depends on the atheist. However, I think mysticism is much more common in spiritual nature due to the fact that it's an abstract and subjective nature, while the physical universe is concrete and on actual level beyond our perception it is objective.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Not to mention, ontological philosophy gives potential for mysticism.

 

[Windwalker]

I'll add something here about atheism and mysticism. At that level it has as much relevance as theism does.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Again, I know these words. But how do you mean them? I do not consider introspection, for instance, to be mysticism. I consider it along the lines of philosophy, or perhaps psychology. Mysticism includes that, but transcends that by several magnitudes or so. Introspection typically doesn't involved altered states of consciousness. Mysticism definitely does.


I would say that mysticism sees what others see as well. For instance, I read Meister Eckhart from the 14th century, and what he says identically mirrors my own experiences in deep meditation. This something not only known to myself, but many, many others as well.

May I ask what practices do you do to gain these insights you call mystical?

Well this just shows how bad I am with religion then. I have been trying to view mysticism in a more rational light but I guess I can't.
I guess I will forget it.

 

[Windwalker]

Well this just shows how bad I am with religion then. I have been trying to view mysticism in a more rational light but I guess I can't.
I guess I will forget it.

Don't get me wrong, mysticism is highly rational. It's just that it's insights are not through rational thought processes. It is however quite compatible with the rational mind, in that it doesn't violate it. Think of mysticism like those moments beneath the night sky where you don't intellectualize things, but are simply present in your being and what is without you and what is within you merge together. This is the mystical experience. Obviously this is not a result of analyzing the stars and the moon rationally, but rather a simple and profound response to simply being.

One apprehends the mystical, not comprehend. Comprehension is a rational pursuit, apprehension is an existential one.

Here's a great quote from a highly rational physicist that goes to illustrate clearly how the mystical transcends the rational, which he calls our "dull faculties".

The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. He to whom the emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand wrapped in awe, is as good as dead —his eyes are closed. The insight into the mystery of life, coupled though it be with fear, has also given rise to religion. To know what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their most primitive forms—this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.

~ Albert Einstein, Living Philosophies
​

In fact, you will find that the most brilliant of modern physicists were all them themselves also mystics. They were because they realized the limits of rational thought. You have to move beyond the rational to truly begin to apprehend reality. And so when I say I hear others who are mystics describe the world of reality through their eyes and voices, I hear and see my own experiences of the same truth through my own mystical experiences. You can explore their mystical writings in this book, which includes Albert Einstein, Heisenberg, Eddington, Schroedinger, and a half dozen other including Nobel laureates. So you can see, mysticism is completely compatible with rationality. Quantum Questions: Mystical Writings of the World's Great Physicists: Ken Wilber: 9781570627682: Amazon.com: Books

And to add here, a resounding YES, mysticism is completely compatible with atheism, just as it is with theism. Questions like these become incidental and after the fact in the light of mystical awareness.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Don't get me wrong, mysticism is highly rational. It's just that it's insights are not through rational thought processes. It is however quite compatible with the rational mind, in that it doesn't violate it. Think of mysticism like those moments beneath the night sky where you don't intellectualize things, but are simply present in your being and what is without you and what is within you merge together. This is the mystical experience. Obviously this is not a result of analyzing the stars and the moon rationally, but rather a simple and profound response to simply being.

One apprehends the mystical, not comprehend. Comprehension is a rational pursuit, apprehension is an existential one.

Here's a great quote from a highly rational physicist that goes to illustrate clearly how the mystical transcends the rational, which he calls our "dull faculties".

The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. He to whom the emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand wrapped in awe, is as good as dead —his eyes are closed. The insight into the mystery of life, coupled though it be with fear, has also given rise to religion. To know what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their most primitive forms—this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.

~ Albert Einstein, Living Philosophies
​

In fact, you will find that the most brilliant of modern physicists were all them themselves also mystics. They were because they realized the limits of rational thought. You have to move beyond the rational to truly begin to apprehend reality. And so when I say I hear others who are mystics describe the world of reality through their eyes and voices, I hear and see my own experiences of the same truth through my own mystical experiences. You can explore their mystical writings in this book, which includes Albert Einstein, Heisenberg, Eddington, Schroedinger, and a half dozen other including Nobel laureates. So you can see, mysticism is completely compatible with rationality. Quantum Questions: Mystical Writings of the World's Great Physicists: Ken Wilber: 9781570627682: Amazon.com: Books

And to add here, a resounding YES, mysticism is completely compatible with atheism, just as it is with theism. Questions like these become incidental and after the fact in the light of mystical awareness.

That concludes what I thought before I wrote the original post. I was really trying to formulate a case where mysticism is compatible with atheism and you have proved me wrong.
Mysticism is without a doubt incompatible with atheism and is an enigma to it and rational thought.