Is jesus his own father?

[Bloomdido]

Making an accusation that you can't back up is hardly a useful reply. The Nephites reported seeing a man descend from heaven and hearing a voice proclaiming him to be the resurrected messiah, even Jesus of Nazareth. They were a continent away from Jerusalem. He taught them many of the same things he taught to the Jews in Jerusalem. The Book of Mormon is strong evidence that Jesus was in fact the messiah, and the son of God.

Book of mormon, evidence, in the same sentence. Fascinatig stuff. Just goes to show there is one born every minute.

 

[sojourner]

IS JESUS GOD?

IS THE GODHEAD INSEPERTABLE?

SO WHEN A PART OT THE GODHEAD DOES SOMETHING, DO THEY ALL TAKE 1/3 PART IN IT?

DID THE HOLY SPERIT OVERSHADOW "CONGIGATE" "IMPART SEED" WITH MARY, JESUS'S MOTHER.:sarcastic

THEN THEREFORE DID JESUS NOT IMPRAGNATE HIS MOTHER?:yes:

Straw man. You really need to bone up on Trinitarian theology and get it right before you pretend to knock it down.

 

[sky cake]

Straw man. You really need to bone up on Trinitarian theology and get it right before you pretend to knock it down.

some one needs to lear what a straw man is.
just answer the questions

is jesus god?

 

[sky cake]

my whole reason for this thread is to show that god does not need jesus to forgive sin, that the rules dont alpy to god, and that people will belive anything

 

[rrosskopf]

the ages are filled full of people that have seen holy men descending from heaven, do you belive them all? half of them? more than one? why? how are they wrong and you right?

I would judge each by the light and knowledge that I possess. I firmly believe in a supernatural world with many beings; whether they represent God or not is an entirely different question. Sometimes people are only prepared to receive some of the truth; sometimes God only gives that portion which people can accept. Sometimes Satan or his angels appear and try to lead people astray. I have had both positive and negative experiences; I believe this allows me to judge between them. If twenty blind people describe an elephant differently, then there is little reason for me to dismiss their experiences out of hand. I can check out the elephant for myself.

 

[sky cake]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sky cake
the ages are filled full of people that have seen holy men descending from heaven, do you belive them all? half of them? more than one? why? how are they wrong and you right?

I would judge each by the light and knowledge that I possess. I firmly believe in a supernatural world with many beings; whether they represent God or not is an entirely different question. Sometimes people are only prepared to receive some of the truth; sometimes God only gives that portion which people can accept. Sometimes Satan or his angels appear and try to lead people astray. I have had both positive and negative experiences; I believe this allows me to judge between them. If twenty blind people describe an elephant differently, then there is little reason for me to dismiss their experiences out of hand. I can check out the elephant for myself.

my problem here is why would you want blind people to tell you what an elephant is? much less let those blinfd folks make up the highest order in your religious system. i get the ideal that "god" is something we cant "see" but here the rub, you dont just get your religious experances from god, if god wants to save men, and wants you to love him he would have contact with you, not hide from you. he would come out of the dark, and dispell the darkness, god would not need a bible, a religion, a messiah, to do it, the reason there are so many blind people, preaching about there elephant experance they have had is because of the bibles and dogma,and religious meddling. joesph smith is a great example of this, so god spoke to him, and he made his own elephant and then lead others to it blindly. god is a bigger pitcture than man can paint, we argue over the colors and type of brush strokes, failing to see, god does not need us, and that our want and need of him effects our perspective, and in the end we blind ourself to any truth that would change the view we already have formed in our hope/faith hearts. most men need the fear of going to hell to toe the line, many need the hope of heaven to strive to help others, and many more fear the death that is before them, seeking something to soflen the stings of the unknow, conforting the soul that there is more, and that this is not the end. if this makes you a bette person, more complet, then good for you. but if all the time you and me and everyone that is religious were to give not out of fear, they could release there elephants, and there blindness.

 

[sojourner]

some one needs to lear what a straw man is.
just answer the questions

is jesus god?

It is a straw man, because you're presenting a false representation of Trinitarian theology, knocking it down, and hoping to prove thereby that Trinitarian theology is false.

Jesus is God.

 

[sojourner]

IS THE GODHEAD INSEPERTABLE?

Depends on what you mean by "Godhead" and "inseparable."

SO WHEN A PART OT THE GODHEAD DOES SOMETHING, DO THEY ALL TAKE 1/3 PART IN IT?

They all participate fully.

DID THE HOLY SPERIT OVERSHADOW "CONGIGATE" "IMPART SEED" WITH MARY, JESUS'S MOTHER.

There are only two accounts: Matt. and Lk.
Matthew says that Jesus was "from the Holy Spirit."
Luke says that the Holy Spirit would "come upon" Mary, and that the power of the Most High would "overshadow" her, therefore, her child would be "holy," and "called Son of God."
Not really clear that the H.S. impregnated Mary -- only that a miracle occurred, with God as impetus.

THEN THEREFORE DID JESUS NOT IMPRAGNATE HIS MOTHER?

No, it only shows that Jesus took full part in the miracle wrought by God.

 

[sojourner]

my problem here is why would you want blind people to tell you what an elephant is?

Jesus wasn't blind.

much less let those blinfd folks make up the highest order in your religious system.

What "order" would that be? In Xy, the clergy are the servants of the laity. The laity serve the Church, of which they are part. The only real "hierarchy" I know of is that Jesus is Head of his Body, and Jesus isn't blind.

if god wants to save men, and wants you to love him he would have contact with you, not hide from you.

God hasn't hidden from us. We've hidden from God. Ultimately, God has sought us out by becoming one of us -- Jesus.

he would come out of the dark, and dispell the darkness,

upon our baptism we receive the light of Christ.

god would not need a bible, a religion, a messiah, to do it

God does not need these things, but those are tools that help us, and through which God works to effect reconciliation.

the reason there are so many blind people, preaching about there elephant experance they have had is because of the bibles and dogma,and religious meddling.

Or, it might be because of the experiences themselves. The Bibles and dogmas and religions provide a language for expression.

god is a bigger pitcture than man can paint,

But humanity is not too big for God to paint...

we argue over the colors and type of brush strokes, failing to see, god does not need us, and that our want and need of him effects our perspective, and in the end we blind ourself to any truth that would change the view we already have formed in our hope/faith hearts

But we need God, and yes, our perspective is colored by that desire. Not all folks are blinded to transformative spirituality. Jesus certainly wasn't.

most men need the fear of going to hell to toe the line

"Fear of hell" is only part of the wacko fundigelical puzzle.

many need the hope of heaven to strive to help others

Many don't need that as motivation.

many more fear the death that is before them, seeking something to soflen the stings of the unknow, conforting the soul that there is more, and that this is not the end.

And many simply seek to understand the unknown.

but if all the time you and me and everyone that is religious were to give not out of fear, they could release there elephants, and there blindness.

Gee, isn't that what Jesus said?...

 

[sky cake]

It is a straw man, because you're presenting a false representation of Trinitarian theology, knocking it down, and hoping to prove thereby that Trinitarian theology is false.

Jesus is God.

look, is jesus god? is he part god? trinty aside, if like some christians belive that jesus was the word and was inthe begging as in being part of the creation of everything then jesus is god or 1/3/ god, and if so he fathered himself.

if jesus is just the son of god and not 1/3 part of god, then the trinity is a lie.

but if jesus is a part of the being that created man, and his fall. then you have to pick one eather god/the godhead and trinity are true or false they cant be both treu and faulse.


so is jesus god? answer please. this is simple yes or no, hint it cant be both. :sorry1:
the trinity is a centeral point in most christians dogma, that jesus is god or atleast 1/3 god, so if i go by what christians say is the truth jesus fathered himself.

for your information i dont belive in the trinity, jesus, satan,or god. i think it all is a unsuportible argument.

 

[sky cake]

Jesus wasn't blind.

What "order" would that be? In Xy, the clergy are the servants of the laity. The laity serve the Church, of which they are part. The only real "hierarchy" I know of is that Jesus is Head of his Body, and Jesus isn't blind.

because jesus is not real.


God hasn't hidden from us. We've hidden from God. Ultimately, God has sought us out by becoming one of us -- Jesus.

most christians teach that man cant come to the understanding of god through his own understanding, that god has to show himself to that man that he can be born again. that my friend is hiding. i am sorry but you are wrong, this is a point the all major christian religions teach. and each branch sells its own virson of the "real" jesus. this is the fault of the religious, by accepting your groups version you ensure you pass that on to your offspring. and the bouns is if anyone stands up to your bleifes then you can wright it off to satan and people being fool.


upon our baptism we receive the light of Christ.
there a re no less than 13 sun gods born on dec25 born of a virgin, fathered by god, died and rose from the grave, and were called the savior,and missiah, and they all have forms of babphtisism. do you receve light from thos christs too?


God does not need these things, but those are tools that help us, and through which God works to effect reconciliation.
if there not needed why have man kill somany of his fellow men over it?


Or, it might be because of the experiences themselves. The Bibles and dogmas and religions provide a language for expression.
were by you can feel better about killing those around you that dont belive as you do.

But humanity is not too big for God to paint...
but god cant seen to love man the way he saw fit to make him. god kicks the legs out from under man, and then punishes man for being down. it would seem that god is the one with the problem.


But we need God, and yes, our perspective is colored by that desire. Not all folks are blinded to transformative spirituality. Jesus certainly wasn't.
jesus was not real, and hoping that he was will not make him real. spirituality is overrated, jesus did not speack out against slavery in his time or the time to come, that was kind of in important issue to miss.

"Fear of hell" is only part of the wacko fundigelical puzzle.

but it is the central part of the jesus puzzle, jesus has to be born to die so god wont kill you for not knowing who he was even thou he was hideing form you all along. a lot of people think that satan made hell, but it was god that made hell. the jewish concept of hell is not the one the christians follow, jesus was not a christian, so lets do the math.

Many don't need that as motivation.

most do.

And many simply seek to understand the unknown.

i dont have a problem with the seekers, its the acceptors of untruth i dont like.

Gee, isn't that what Jesus said?...

no i just said that, and i am real, so i cant be jesus. although my words are in red so i can see how this must be confusiong.


do you belive that jesus was a christian?

 

[sojourner]

look, is jesus god? is he part god? trinty aside, if like some christians belive that jesus was the word and was inthe begging as in being part of the creation of everything then jesus is god or 1/3/ god, and if so he fathered himself.

Jesus is fully God. Fully. That being said, while Jesus participated fully in the Incarnation, it is not true that Jesus fathered himself. Jesus did not create himself. God became Incarnate. There's a difference that you conveniently gloss over.

if jesus is just the son of god and not 1/3 part of god, then the trinity is a lie.

Jesus is fully God.

but if jesus is a part of the being that created man, and his fall. then you have to pick one eather god/the godhead and trinity are true or false they cant be both treu and faulse.

Your spelling and syntax make it nigh impossible for me to figure out what you're saying here, so I can't respond intelligently.

so is jesus god? answer please. this is simple yes or no, hint it cant be both

Jesus is fully God (just as the Father is fully God, and the Spirit is fully God).

the trinity is a centeral point in most christians dogma, that jesus is god or atleast 1/3 god, so if i go by what christians say is the truth jesus fathered himself.

But that's not what Christians say. Jesus did not father himself. Jesus participated fully in the Incarnation.

for your information i dont belive in the trinity, jesus, satan,or god. i think it all is a unsuportible argument.

That's fine. God isn't an argument, either supportable or non-supportable, so we're cool.

 

[sojourner]

because jesus is not real.

You can't support that claim. Therefore, in this theological argument, which assumes the existence of Jesus, the claim is a non sequitur.

most christians teach that man cant come to the understanding of god through his own understanding, that god has to show himself to that man that he can be born again. that my friend is hiding.

God is always available to show God's Self, when we are ready to see God. How is God standing right in front of you, waving his arms and shouting, "I'm here! I'm here!" Hiding??? In fact, those whose eyes are shut tight are hiding from God.

by accepting your groups version you ensure you pass that on to your offspring. and the bouns is if anyone stands up to your bleifes then you can wright it off to satan and people being fool.

You don't know anything about "my group." In point of fact, if someone differs from me, I accept and respect that difference, so long as the theology bears up and a solid argument for the belief can be made. "My group" not only allows for differences, we thrive on them!

there a re no less than 13 sun gods born on dec25 born of a virgin, fathered by god, died and rose from the grave, and were called the savior,and missiah, and they all have forms of babphtisism. do you receve light from thos christs too?

According to my religion, we receive the light of the Christ we follow upon our baptism. According to my religion, there is only one baptism in which to participate.

if there not needed why have man kill somany of his fellow men over it?

I'm not aware of God having us kill anyone over the Bible, or the Church.

were by you can feel better about killing those around you that dont belive as you do.

What's with the fixation on killing people? I've never killed anyone, and I've been a staunch Christian for over 40 years. With credentials.

but god cant seen to love man the way he saw fit to make him. god kicks the legs out from under man, and then punishes man for being down. it would seem that god is the one with the problem.

I can't imagine what you're talking about. God made us. God made us good. God saw that God's creation was good. And God loves us just as we are. In what possible way does that constitute kicking our legs out and then punishing us for being down??? God does not punish as we deserve (for our turning away). God has chosen to reconcile us to God's Self out of God's love for us. What are you talking about?!

jesus was not real, and hoping that he was will not make him real.

Again, for our purposes, a non sequitur argument.

spirituality is overrated,

That's your opinion and you're welcome to it. Many of us don't happen to share the sentiment.

jesus did not speack out against slavery in his time or the time to come, that was kind of in important issue to miss.

Slavery was a much different issue in 1st century Palestine than in modern America.

but it is the central part of the jesus puzzle,

No, it isn't. Sorry.

jesus has to be born to die so god wont kill you for not knowing who he was even thou he was hideing form you all along.

No, Jesus had to be born so that God could become Incarnate. God does not kill us, nor does God need a scapegoat to kill. God especially does not kill us for not knowing God. Nor has God hidden from us. These all constitute a straw man built of extremely poor theology. Build it up and knock it down all you want to, but none of what you've posted here is true. In the least.

but it was god that made hell.

I don't believe that.

the jewish concept of hell is not the one the christians follow

So?

jesus was not a christian, so lets do the math.

Duh! Hell doesn't even figure into my theology.

most do.

That's highly debatable. You don't put much stock in humanity, do you!

i dont have a problem with the seekers, its the acceptors of untruth i dont like.

Get in line to be not liked, then...

no i just said that, and i am real, so i cant be jesus.

Huh. Jesus reportedly said it before you plagiarized it. No, you're not Jesus. That's apparent.

do you belive that jesus was a christian?

Why would I? And, more importantly, why does that matter???

 

[Kilgore Trout]

It is impossible for a human egg to be fertilized without coming into contact with human sperm. Unless it can be shown otherwise, or unless it can be shown that they employed artificial insemination techniques 2000 years ago, the whole story of a virgin becoming pregnant is pure fiction.

 

[sojourner]

It is impossible for a human egg to be fertilized without coming into contact with human sperm. Unless it can be shown otherwise, or unless it can be shown that they employed artificial insemination techniques 2000 years ago, the whole story of a virgin becoming pregnant is pure fiction.

Actually, the Greek term is "young woman," not "virgin."

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Actually, the Greek term is "young woman," not "virgin."

So some young woman got knocked up and gave birth? Certainly can't argue with that story.

 

[sojourner]

So some young woman got knocked up and gave birth? Certainly can't argue with that story.

Well, the assumption is that a young woman in that culture would have been a virgin. At any rate, the mythic nature of the story is compelling, the more so because we can see how the writers managed to equate Jesus with Caesar (who also reportedly had a miraculous birth).

 

[MountainHumanist]

I can only answer in a way that applies to my own belief system.

IS JESUS GOD?

Based on the best research available, I have concluded that the Jesus presented in the Gospel of Mark and subsequently in the other Gospels, was not a historical person. Likely, Jesus is an amalgamated legend based on many similar Jewish prophets who were know to the area at the time. The legend was likely propagated in light of the Roman destruction of the Temple in 70 AD as well as an attempt to create (though not purposefully) a religious movement that would retain Jewish heritage but also appeal to a more cosmopolitan Mediterranean culture. There was probably at least one Jewish prophet upon whom the Jesus legend was based or perhaps the remembered acts of various prophets. It was only with the Pauline period and after that Jesus was elevated to god status. So, short answer: No.

IS THE GODHEAD INSEPERTABLE?

I think you mean inseparable and the question is moot considering my atheistic worldview.

SO WHEN A PART OT THE GODHEAD DOES SOMETHING, DO THEY ALL TAKE 1/3 PART IN IT?

Logically, this would follow.

DID THE HOLY SPERIT OVERSHADOW "CONGIGATE" "IMPART SEED" WITH MARY, JESUS'S MOTHER.:sarcastic

Not historically but metaphorically.

THEN THEREFORE DID JESUS NOT IMPRAGNATE HIS MOTHER?

The idea of a god impregnating a virgin (or "young girl") was already well known in other religions (Zeus impregnated a woman as a golden ray of light). This is a common hero motif (the hero is of otherworldy birth) so it's not surprising to see it in the Jesus story. I believe Mithras and Dionysis also had similar birth stories as did Hercules (a demigod).

 

[sojourner]

Based on the best research available, I have concluded that the Jesus presented in the Gospel of Mark and subsequently in the other Gospels, was not a historical person. Likely, Jesus is an amalgamated legend based on many similar Jewish prophets who were know to the area at the time. The legend was likely propagated in light of the Roman destruction of the Temple in 70 AD as well as an attempt to create (though not purposefully) a religious movement that would retain Jewish heritage but also appeal to a more cosmopolitan Mediterranean culture. There was probably at least one Jewish prophet upon whom the Jesus legend was based or perhaps the remembered acts of various prophets. It was only with the Pauline period and after that Jesus was elevated to god status. So, short answer: No.

Actually, most Biblical scholars (religious or not, Xian or not) argue for an historical Jesus. The destruction of the Temple in 70 c.e. cannot have been a motivating factor for a "fabricated" Jesus, since there were sources earlier than that event surrounding the Jesus Event, and ascribing some form of Divinity to Jesus. At least one source predates Paul.

 

[rrosskopf]

my problem here is why would you want blind people to tell you what an elephant is?

We are all blind to some degree, seeing only what we want to see. We can improve our understanding of things by finding out what others see. Skepticism is the darkness that extinguishes every light. If someone claims to have seen God, or to have heard God, then I am very interested to find out what they saw, and what they learned.