Is Jesus God?

[sojourner]

[quote originally posted by sourjourner} If you read the Bible, you will note that Jesus says he will send the Spirit to be with us, not some Arabic man. That's why I'm not a Muslim.

It is perfectly clear to everybody that you wrote those words! I stated a fact, no judgement.
It is quite clear what you feel about Muslims. As I said before talking to a convinced Christian is a waste of time.
Carbolic acid, that's goodbye in any language.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I said that. What does it prove about my being judgmental? I don't believe Jesus sent an arabic man to be with us. I believe he sent the Holy Spirit to be with us -- all of us. That's standard Christian theology. If that makes me a "convinced" Christian by your standards, then so be it. Last time I checked, we're not living on "Ronald's World," nor are we adhereing to "Ronaldism." It seems to me that you're the one making judgments about what kind of person I am, and applying some kind of (negative) value to my beliefs. I didn't do that with Popeye. If he wants to be Baha'i, more power to him!!! I hope his religion points him to truth, just as I feel mine does for me. Why do you have a problem with that?

 

[Popeyesays]

Maybe I had the wrong impression about the Baha'i faith. My understanding was that you don't view yourselves as Christian. To me, your posts seem more Muslim-aligned than Christian-aligned.

I would agree with your second statement. Just because God speaks through people, doesn't mean that everything that comes out of a person's mouth is "of God." But I believe that, generally, the religious councils spoke truth.

About the different denominations: So what? For centuries there were less than a dozen Christian sects, too. Would you like to return to the days of the Inquisition and the purchase of indulgences? Perhaps more viewpoints alloow us to envision a broader spectrum of who God is -- perhaps our theology is now less myopic than it once was.

Jesus also referred to the "Counselor." The generaly-accepted Christian viewpoint is that Jesus is referring to the Holy Spirit -- not to a certain person, or persons who ar recognized. if that's the criterion you're using, then we could rationally appoint any of a number of historic figures: Mother Teresa, Pope John Paul II, Mortin Luther King, Jr., etc. etc. No, I don't buy that. Jesus was speaking of the Holy Spirit, who would come to counsel and comfort all of us.

Maybe Mohammed had the spirit of truth, (maybe he even had the Holy Spirit -- who knows for sure?) But, being a Christian, I don't believe that he was equal to Jesus -- Jesus was fully human and fully divine -- Mohammed was not. That's why I'm a Christian and not a Muslim. (If the Muslims want to believe something other than that, they may -- and I'm OK with that. It's just not for me.)

we don't view ourselves as Christians or Muslims - we are Baha`i. But THE central belief of the Baha`i Revelation is that God's revelation to man is progressive, and has had many Bearers of the Revelation over time - and Baha`u'llah will NOT be the last.

For me to elevate one Messenger above another is wrong. We are taught to love the light, not the lamp, so we love the light in whatever lamp it might appear. In my opinion that is better than loving a lamp in which the light has burned low while another lamp in another house is in full illumination.

I cannot judge the percentage content of Jesus. He was a MAN or His sacrifice means nothing. If He WAS God, He could not sacrifice Himself. The Messengers are what They are, not what you or I demands that They be. We do not understand Their nature enough to be authority upon the issue.

Regards,
Scott

 

[sojourner]

we don't view ourselves as Christians or Muslims - we are Baha`i. But THE central belief of the Baha`i Revelation is that God's revelation to man is progressive, and has had many Bearers of the Revelation over time - and Baha`u'llah will NOT be the last.

For me to elevate one Messenger above another is wrong. We are taught to love the light, not the lamp, so we love the light in whatever lamp it might appear. In my opinion that is better than loving a lamp in which the light has burned low while another lamp in another house is in full illumination.

I cannot judge the percentage content of Jesus. He was a MAN or His sacrifice means nothing. If He WAS God, He could not sacrifice Himself. The Messengers are what They are, not what you or I demands that They be. We do not understand Their nature enough to be authority upon the issue.

Regards,
Scott

Ah... now we're shedding a little more light on the subject. Thanks for your post! It explains your other posts better.

You revere wisdom above the bearer of wisdom. To Western Christianity, wisdom is not revered, expecially, although it is respected. I'm sure that most Western religious leaders have a great deal of respect for the Dalai Lama as he has for them. But, we don't worship or follow any truth bearer. We follow Jesus. (Personally, I agree with you. I believe Truth is found everywhere -- not just in one religious system.)

But...here's where we differ. I believe that Jesus was God. That's how I interpret the bible, and I adhere to the religion that teaches that. Personally, personally, I could not adhere to a religion in which Jesus is not divine, because that christology forms a very basic tenet of my theology. (I'm sure that Baha'i is just as valid for you, though, as Xy is for me, and I'm sure that there's a lot of truth to be found there.)

Thanks again for posting that.

 

[Popeyesays]

Ah... now we're shedding a little more light on the subject. Thanks for your post! It explains your other posts better.

You revere wisdom above the bearer of wisdom. To Western Christianity, wisdom is not revered, expecially, although it is respected. I'm sure that most Western religious leaders have a great deal of respect for the Dalai Lama as he has for them. But, we don't worship or follow any truth bearer. We follow Jesus. (Personally, I agree with you. I believe Truth is found everywhere -- not just in one religious system.)

But...here's where we differ. I believe that Jesus was God. That's how I interpret the bible, and I adhere to the religion that teaches that. Personally, personally, I could not adhere to a religion in which Jesus is not divine, because that christology forms a very basic tenet of my theology. (I'm sure that Baha'i is just as valid for you, though, as Xy is for me, and I'm sure that there's a lot of truth to be found there.)

Thanks again for posting that.

To clarify a little further we don't call them Truth Bearers, but Divine Manifestations. One has to parse that phrase a little bit.
Think of it like this:God is LIKE the Sun, from Him emanate all the rays of spiritual light that are the HOLY SPIRIT. while all of creation bathes in and swims in the Holy Spirit, the direct emanations from God are beyond our perception, because God in His Essence is beyond our perception.This is where the Divine Manifestation is essential. His role is the mirror to God's light. He reflects it forth upon creation in a &quot;frequency&quot; </p> in which we can perceive it. Without that illumination creation is deaf, dumb and blind to the presence of its own Creator.</p>So Jesus was the Divine Manifestation. Before Him Abraham, Moses, Krsna, Buddha, Zoroaster were Divine Manifestation as were Muhammad, the Bab and Baha`u'llah after Him.In a real sense They are all the same - the WORD made flesh to creation. In another sense They each have Their own name, identity and life. To see Them either way is not an error, but to deny any of Those Blessed Souls, Those Divine Manifestations is to deny Them ALL. </p>Muhammad tells us to honor Them ALL as Apostles of God. The Bab and Baha`u'llah tell us that we cannot honor ANY without honoring ALL.&quot;He is a true believer in Divine unity who, far from confusing duality with oneness, refuseth to allow any notion of multiplicity to becloud his conception of the singleness of God, who will regard the Divine *167* Being as One Who, by His very nature, transcendeth the limitations of numbers.The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.&quot; (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 166)</p>Regards,Scott</p>PS I hope this isn't all scrunched together, but I cannot seem to make a paragraph with the enter key.</p>

 

[sojourner]

To clarify a little further we don't call them Truth Bearers, but Divine Manifestations. One has to parse that phrase a little bit.
Think of it like this:God is LIKE the Sun, from Him emanate all the rays of spiritual light that are the HOLY SPIRIT. while all of creation bathes in and swims in the Holy Spirit, the direct emanations from God are beyond our perception, because God in His Essence is beyond our perception.This is where the Divine Manifestation is essential. His role is the mirror to God's light. He reflects it forth upon creation in a &quot;frequency&quot; </p> in which we can perceive it. Without that illumination creation is deaf, dumb and blind to the presence of its own Creator.</p>So Jesus was the Divine Manifestation. Before Him Abraham, Moses, Krsna, Buddha, Zoroaster were Divine Manifestation as were Muhammad, the Bab and Baha`u'llah after Him.In a real sense They are all the same - the WORD made flesh to creation. In another sense They each have Their own name, identity and life. To see Them either way is not an error, but to deny any of Those Blessed Souls, Those Divine Manifestations is to deny Them ALL. </p>Muhammad tells us to honor Them ALL as Apostles of God. The Bab and Baha`u'llah tell us that we cannot honor ANY without honoring ALL.&quot;He is a true believer in Divine unity who, far from confusing duality with oneness, refuseth to allow any notion of multiplicity to becloud his conception of the singleness of God, who will regard the Divine *167* Being as One Who, by His very nature, transcendeth the limitations of numbers.The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.&quot; (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 166)</p>Regards,Scott</p>PS I hope this isn't all scrunched together, but I cannot seem to make a paragraph with the enter key.</p>

Very helpful. Baha'i takes a completely different tack from Xy. It really is more of a wisdom religion, isn't it?

 

[Popeyesays]

Very helpful. Baha'i takes a completely different tack from Xy. It really is more of a wisdom religion, isn't it?

Well, "the Source of all knowledge is the knowledge of God." And that is true on many different levels.

"XIX. To every discerning and illuminated heart it is evident that God, the unknowable Essence, the Divine Being, is immensely exalted beyond every human attribute, such as corporeal existence, ascent and descent, egress and regress. Far be it from His glory that human tongue should adequately recount 47 His praise, or that human heart comprehend His fathomless mystery. He is, and hath ever been, veiled in the ancient eternity of His Essence, and will remain in His Reality everlastingly hidden from the sight of men. "No vision taketh in Him, but He taketh in all vision; He is the Subtile, the All-Perceiving."...
The door of the knowledge of the Ancient of Days being thus closed in the face of all beings, the Source of infinite grace, according to His saying, "His grace hath transcended all things; My grace hath encompassed them all," hath caused those luminous Gems of Holiness to appear out of the realm of the spirit, in the noble form of the human temple, and be made manifest unto all men, that they may impart unto the world the mysteries of the unchangeable Being, and tell of the subtleties of His imperishable Essence.
These sanctified Mirrors, these Day Springs of ancient glory, are, one and all, the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty. The beauty of their countenance is but a reflection of His image, and their revelation a sign of His deathless glory. They are the Treasuries of Divine knowledge, and the Repositories of celestial wisdom. Through them is transmitted a grace that is infinite, and by them is revealed the Light that can never fade.... These Tabernacles of Holiness, 48 these Primal Mirrors which reflect the light of unfading glory, are but expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles. By the revelation of these Gems of Divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty, and grace, are made manifest.
These attributes of God are not, and have never been, vouchsafed specially unto certain Prophets, and withheld from others. Nay, all the Prophets of God, His well-favored, His holy and chosen Messengers are, without exception, the bearers of His names, and the embodiments of His attributes. They only differ in the intensity of their revelation, and the comparative potency of their light. Even as He hath revealed: "Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 47)

Regards,
Scott

 

[mehrosh]

I see that My christian Brothers have written a lot to prove Jesus is God, but can you bring any verse from the 73 Books of the Bible..In which Jesus himself says that "I am God"

 

[Popeyesays]

I see that My christian Brothers have written a lot to prove Jesus is God, but can you bring any verse from the 73 Books of the Bible..In which Jesus himself says that "I am God"

Watch out, they'll trot out Revelations where such words are attributed to Jesus. However, during His life in His own words, never ONCE does He make such a claim. Quite the opposite, He seems to challenge the notion at every opportunity.

Regards,
Scott

 

[dawny0826]

I see that My christian Brothers have written a lot to prove Jesus is God, but can you bring any verse from the 73 Books of the Bible..In which Jesus himself says that "I am God"

Jesus Himself isn't going to say within the Bible that He is God because although He IS a manifestation of God...oneearth His role was to SHOW US how to live FOR GOD...to show us how a Christian should worship God and commune with God in a parent/child relationship.

 

[nutshell]

I see that My christian Brothers have written a lot to prove Jesus is God, but can you bring any verse from the 73 Books of the Bible..In which Jesus himself says that "I am God"

How about all the verses where he says that he and his Father are one?

 

[mehrosh]

Jesus Himself isn't going to say within the Bible that He is God because although He IS a manifestation of God...oneearth His role was to SHOW US how to live FOR GOD...to show us how a Christian should worship God and commune with God in a parent/child relationship.

That is what dear Brother I am pointing out, how can you claim his divinity when he didn't. 90 million Germans marched and claimed that Hitler is the second carnation of God....I ask them, did he claim so? NO, The Buddhist say Gautam Buddah is God. Did he say, he is God? they say No. So how can you associate divinity to someone who didn't claim to be God......If I can fly, walk on water, read your mind, tell you whatever is in your mind and pocket. And say I am God, will you believe? You will say, Friend, you are here from 24 years, you have a father and a grandfather. If I have a knife I can stab you, you feel hungry and thirsty. I don't know how you are doing all this but you are not God.It comes in the Gospel of Leuk Ch:2 V:21 "WHne he was eight days old, he was circumcised and named Jesus, by the angel in his mother's womb" I ask "WHO"..."JESUS"..."WHO JESUS"....."GOD"...."HOW DID HE COME OUT"?......"THE WAY OTHER HUMANS DO"......Imagine you were the nurse assistinig Mary in the Stable, will you think that this helpless baby is God? Imagine God having circumcission....

 

[Popeyesays]

How about all the verses where he says that he and his Father are one?

One in purpose, yes. One as physically identical one with the other, no.

Regards,
Scott

 

[mehrosh]

How about all the verses where he says that he and his Father are one?

Yes he (human) and his father (God) are one, because he said what God told him to say, He taught what his father told him, the only connection between humans and God was Jesus......so who ever follows him follows God...He erected the dead with the help of his father.....He cured the ill with the help of his father....THus they are One....The same way as it comes in the Bible that Moses was send to Pharoah as God.......

 

[dawny0826]

That is what dear Brother I am pointing out, how can you claim his divinity when he didn't. 90 million Germans marched and claimed that Hitler is the second carnation of God....I ask them, did he claim so? NO, The Buddhist say Gautam Buddah is God. Did he say, he is God? they say No. So how can you associate divinity to someone who didn't claim to be God......If I can fly, walk on water, read your mind, tell you whatever is in your mind and pocket. And say I am God, will you believe? You will say, Friend, you are here from 24 years, you have a father and a grandfather. If I have a knife I can stab you, you feel hungry and thirsty. I don't know how you are doing all this but you are not God.It comes in the Gospel of Leuk Ch:2 V:21 "WHne he was eight days old, he was circumcised and named Jesus, by the angel in his mother's womb" I ask "WHO"..."JESUS"..."WHO JESUS"....."GOD"...."HOW DID HE COME OUT"?......"THE WAY OTHER HUMANS DO"......Imagine you were the nurse assistinig Mary in the Stable, will you think that this helpless baby is God? Imagine God having circumcission....

Brother? I'm your sister.

I'm not discounting his divinity by any means...

I'm simply trying to explain WHY Christ didn't STATE that He IS God.

 

[nutshell]

One in purpose, yes. One as physically identical one with the other, no.

Regards,
Scott

Well, that happens to be what I believe too, but you probably already knew that.

I would say, however, that I believe God is Jesus' literal Father, so physically, yes he was God, but not God the Father.

 

[mehrosh]

Brother? I'm your sister.

I'm not discounting his divinity by any means...

I'm simply trying to explain WHY Christ didn't STATE that He IS God.

Sister I understand...but the point is that when I tell you I am your brother you call me brother...on the other hand if I tell you that I am your sister you call me sister....But if I don't you cannot say with certainity whether I am your brother or sister...Right..??

 

[mehrosh]

Well, that happens to be what I believe too, but you probably already knew that.

I would say, however, that I believe God is Jesus' literal Father, so physically, yes he was God, but not God the Father.

My dear Brother you are confusing us...you say that God is Jesus' literal Father, and the you say that Jesus is God....that is Jesus is Father, It is tooo confusing are you talking about trinity...?

 

[dawny0826]

Sister I understand...but the point is that when I tell you I am your brother you call me brother...on the other hand if I tell you that I am your sister you call me sister....But if I don't you cannot say with certainity whether I am your brother or sister...Right..??

No...you called me brother.

I was just politely trying to reiterate the fact that I'm a girl.:flirt:

 

[mehrosh]

No...you called me brother.

I was just politely trying to reiterate the fact that I'm a girl.:flirt:

Yes I know that....and Nice to know you dear sister...but I was only using this fact to explain my point....I didn't knew that you are a sister unless you claimed...thus how can you say that Jesus was God...Until he claims? Leave aside the dicussion that why he didn't say? I know that He didn't even Like to be called Good....leave aside God

 

[nutshell]

Yes I know that....and Nice to know you dear sister...but I was only using this fact to explain my point....I didn't knew that you are a sister unless you claimed...thus how can you say that Jesus was God...Until he claims? Leave aside the dicussion that why he didn't say? I know that He didn't even Like to be called Good....leave aside God

But there was evidence there for you to conclude that Dawny was a girl, you just choose not to come to this conclusion. The same is true for Jesus...he didn't have to make the clear-cut claim without us knowing who he is.