1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is Jesus God?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Orbit, Feb 7, 2015.

  1. JehovahIsGodAlmighty

    Joined:
    May 10, 2016
    Messages:
    36
    Ratings:
    +8
    Religion:
    Christian
    That was hilarious. Jesus is NEVER called Almighty in Isaiah or in any scripture in any bible translation, that was an outright lie. Jehovah is referred to as The Most High and Almighty God (see Psalms 83:18, Genesis 17:1 etc.). Jesus is referred to as The Son of The Most high, Son of God (see John 20:31, Mark 5:7 etc.)

    How can Jesus be God and the Son of God?

    In John 20:17 Why did Jesus clearly say that he has a God and Father which is the same as our God and Father?

    Why did Jesus get baptized? Who did he dedicate his life to, himself? - Matthew 3:16

    Why was Jesus always praying, and to whom was he praying to? Luke 6:12,13

    If Jesus is God, Why was he created? Colossians 1:15

    Why do people teach and/or believe the trinity if the bible says to us there is "ONE God, the Father"? 1 Corinthians 8:6

    If Jesus is God or somehow equal to God, then why did he say "the Father is greater than I am? John 14:28

    Why does John 4:23 say "the TRUE WORSHIPPERS will worship THE FATHER", If Jesus was God shouldn't it say true worshippers will worship Jesus or the Son?

    After Jesus was resurrected why does Romans 8:34 say he was at the "Right hand of God"? If Jesus was God shouldn't it say he was resurrected as God?

    I really could go on for days but i'll let you answer these questions first. I always wondered why everyone was confused over to trinity doctrine and why nobody ever could explain it to me when I asked, in addition I always wondered why the word trinity never occurs in the bible but now I see it's because it's a made up doctrine that many accept as truth.(Mark 7:7) Oh and please use scriptures in your answers don't just say something is true or untrue just because. Thanks ☺
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,093
    Ratings:
    +389
    Religion:
    Christian
    Yes, the Greeks and Romans had other gods while Christianity always has one. In fact, early Christians refused to recognize Caesar as "a god" no matter how mighty a person he was considered because there were no other gods or God but God. So while I believe the pagan Greeks had other gods I don't believe in or recognize these gods myself.

    The problem I see for your religion is that it recognizes Yahweh as "Almighty God" and Jesus as a "Mighty god" which means you have more than one deity. Yes, you worship only one (monolatrism), but you recognize more than one deity (polytheism), in much the same way the ancient Greeks and Romans recognized other deities.

    And while I'm sure you'll agree with me in not recognizing any of these Greek deities for ourselves, you still have more than one.
     
  3. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2008
    Messages:
    1,088
    Ratings:
    +250
    There are a few things here that you've missed because you believe in heaven going. I"ll show you.

    1. The passage teaches nothing of the kind. Every reference to God's house in Scripture is to His house on the earth. See Jn. 2:16; 2 Kings 20:5; Micah 4, esp. vs. 1, 2. It is a false assumption to read into this passage that the Father's house is in heaven.

    2. The passage does not refer to literal mansions in the ordinary sense of the word mansion, for a mansion, by definition, is larger than a house. How then can one have mansions in a house? The simple solution is that the house referred to is a spiritual house. Consider the following passages:
    a. "Ye, also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." (1 Pet. 2:5).
    b. "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God. . . " (Rev. 3:12). "And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house [God's house, R.S.V.]; whose house are we if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." (Heb. 3:5,6).
    c. "Ye . . . are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Eph. 2:19-22).
    God's house is a spiritual one in which are many abiding places.

    3. Heaven is not an unprepared place. It is the Father's throne (Psa. 115:16; Matt. 5:34) where his will is done. (Matt. 6:10). Christ is preparing a place for his followers by his High Priestly mediation in the house of God. (Heb. 3:1-6). Under God, he is building the house of believers, preparing the stones for right and left-hand places of honour in his kingdom; God being judge of their worthiness. Jesus said to the mother of Zebedee's children: "To sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father." (Matt. 20:23).

    4. If Christ's disciples went to heaven at death, then Christ's assurance, "I will come again, and receive you unto myself" would be a separation and not a reunion. (Jn. 14:3).

    5. Some have mistakenly interpreted the "going away" to refer to Christ's crucifixion, and the "coming again" to his resurrection. The correct interpretation is that Christ was going away to his Father, and would come again to the earth. This can be shown from the following:
    a. Jesus said, ". . . and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now say I to you." (Jn 13:33). Earlier Jesus had said to the Jews "Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me. Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come." (Jn. 7:33,34). See also Jn. 8:21. Since God is in heaven (Matt. 6:9), Jesus must have been referring to his going away to heaven.
    b. In Jn. 14:12, Jesus said, "I go unto my Father."
    c. Also in Jn. 14:28, Jesus said, "I go unto the Father."

    6. "I will come again and receive you unto myself" is interpreted by Evangelicals to mean that Christ comes to gather the saints together and take them to heaven. But nowhere is his reign spoken of as being in heaven. See Luke 1:32,33; cf. Dan. 2:44; Psa. 2:6 and Isa. 2:3.

    7. It is sometimes pointed out that Jesus said to Peter, "Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards." (Jn. 13:36). From this verse it is implied that Peter at his death would follow Christ to heaven. Two points require stressing;
    a. Peter was promised a place on the earth, not in heaven. "Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them . . . when the son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Matt. 19:27, 28). Jesus will sit in his throne at Jerusalem (Lk. 1:32,33) when he returns. (See also Matt. 25:31,32).
    b. Jesus did not make contradictory assertions within the short space of four verses. It is known what John 13:36 does not mean. It does not mean that Peter would go to heaven. What does it mean? That Peter would follow his Master's death. Jesus told Peter what death he was to die. (Jn. 21:18,19).


    Yes, ok.. God is in heaven. I agree with you. Great verse thanks!!

    Great verse again. Thank you.

    Yes, there is a heaven, but not our dwelling place. OT and NT do talk about heaven, but again, we dont go there. If the bible says that Jesus will "come back" and "set up" a kingdom and stay here, then why would you want to do something else?
     
  4. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2015
    Messages:
    5,508
    Ratings:
    +3,164
    Religion:
    Christian
    "The problem I see for your religion is that it recognizes Yahweh as "Almighty God" and Jesus as a "Mighty god" "

    No, the Bible says that.

    And Jesus is not Yahweh(John 17:3; 1 Corinthians 8:5-6)....Yahweh is Jesus' God, his Father.(John 20:17)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Yoshua

    Yoshua Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2015
    Messages:
    1,307
    Ratings:
    +176
    Religion:
    Evangelical Christian
    Hi Jeh,

    Because there is one God who exists in the person of Christ; He was sent by the Father to live with us and share the truths about God. Jesus is in human form and in God form; He should do the way how human do to pray, and to give glory to the Father.

    This is prophesied by Isaiah and this is the fulfillment in the New Testament.

    Isa. 40:3
    3. A voice is calling, "Clear the way for the Lord (YHWH)in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.

    Mal. 3:1
    1. "Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord (Adonai), whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the Lord (YHWH) of hosts.

    Matt. 3:3
    3. For this is the one referred to by Isaiah the prophet, saying, "The voice of one crying in the wilderness,

    Mark 1:1-3
    1. The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
    2. As it is written in Isaiah the prophet,
    "Behold, I send My messenger before Your face,
    3. The voice of one crying in the wilderness,
    `Make ready the way of the Lord,

    Col. 2:9
    9. For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

    No doubt that His nature is God.
    He is praying to God as the scripture says.
    12. And it was at this time that He went off to the mountain to pray, and He spent the whole night in prayer to God.
    JWs is always say He is a creation. Jesus was in the beginning with God. The Word became flesh. It says nothing was made without Him, then how can He be created?

    John 1:2-3
    2. He was in the beginning with God.
    3. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
    Because the Scripture was clear about their existence as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. ONE God exists in three persons.
    Jesus lived with us. Jesus is in human form, therefore the position as man makes The Father is greater but not His divine nature.

    Phil. 2:6-7
    6. who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
    7. but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

    Heb. 2:9
    9. But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
    How can Jesus will say those things to elevate Himself if He should show to people how to pray and worship God (Father)? He is in human form.
    In the first place, we will go back where Jesus is in human form but in divine nature as God (deity). Why He was at right hand of God? this is the proof that God exist in the person of Christ.
    It is not confusing. The word “trinity” is not found in the Bible as the word “Bible.” It is not about the word but the existence of God.


    Thanks
     
  6. Yoshua

    Yoshua Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2015
    Messages:
    1,307
    Ratings:
    +176
    Religion:
    Evangelical Christian
    Hi Jabar,

    You quoted Luke 24: 36-45, and ignored the order of narratives in Luke 23:32-46. In studying and reading the narratives, we don’t jump-in to a portion of narratives, and make it as the proof that He was not crucified. It is like you are reading a novel, and picked the last chapter thus making it your conclusion as the right one. This kind of approach is absolutely unacceptable. Why violate the very basic rule of reading?:shrug: I’m so surprised on how you validated that Jesus was not crucified. Luke 23:32-46 was stated clearly that He was crucified.
    Who say that the Bible is not the word of God? What is your proof that it is not?:rolleyes:
    I used the Living Bible to further understand what Paul is saying.

    1 Cor. 15:38-49
    38. then God gives it a beautiful new body--just the kind he wants it to have; a different kind of plant grows from each kind of seed.
    39. And just as there are different kinds of seeds and plants, so also there are different kinds of flesh. Humans, animals, fish, and birds are all different.
    40. The angels in heaven have bodies far different from ours, and the beauty and the glory of their bodies is different from the beauty and the glory of ours.
    41. The sun has one kind of glory while the moon and stars have another kind. And the stars differ from each other in their beauty and brightness.
    42. In the same way, our earthly bodies which die and decay are different from the bodies we shall have when we come back to life again, for they will never die.
    43. The bodies we have now embarrass us for they become sick and die; but they will be full of glory when we come back to life again. Yes, they are weak, dying bodies now, but when we live again they will be full of strength.
    44. They are just human bodies at death, but when they come back to life they will be superhuman bodies. For just as there are natural, human bodies, there are also supernatural, spiritual bodies.
    45. The Scriptures tell us that the first man, Adam, was given a natural, human body but Christ is more than that, for he was life-giving Spirit.
    46. First, then, we have these human bodies and later on God gives us spiritual, heavenly bodies.
    47. Adam was made from the dust of the earth, but Christ came from heaven above.
    48. Every human being has a body just like Adam's, made of dust, but all who become Christ's will have the same kind of body as his--a body from heaven.
    49. Just as each of us now has a body like Adam's, so we shall some day have a body like Christ's.

    This is simply telling us about God giving us a new (heavenly) body which is not the earthly bodies. It is the same body.
    What eyewitness you are looking for?:( eyewitness that He was crucified? I just quoted Luke 23:32-46 before about the crucifixion of Jesus. Here are the eyewitness (bold letter).

    Luke 23:47-48
    47. Now when the centurion saw what had happened, he began praising God, saying, "Certainly this man was innocent."
    48. And all the multitudes who came together for this spectacle, when they observed what had happened, began to return, beating their breasts.

    The Crucifixion
    John 19:15-19
    16. So he then delivered Him to them to be crucified.
    17. They took Jesus therefore, and He went out, bearing His own cross, to the place called the Place of a Skull, which is called in Hebrew, Golgotha.
    18. There they crucified Him, and with Him two other men, one on either side, and Jesus in between.
    19. And Pilate wrote an inscription also, and put it on the cross. And it was written, "JESUS THE NAZARENE, THE KING OF THE JEWS."

    John 19:23-27
    23. The soldiers therefore, when they had crucified Jesus, took His outer garments and made four parts, a part to every soldier and also the tunic; now the tunic was seamless, woven in one piece.
    24. They said therefore to one another, "Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, to decide whose it shall be"; that the Scripture might be fulfilled, "They divided My outer garments among them, and for My clothing they cast lots."
    25. Therefore the soldiers did these things. But there were standing by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
    26. When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold, your son!"
    27. Then He said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her into his own household.

    John 19:38:42
    38. And after these things Joseph of Arimathea, being a disciple of Jesus, but a secret one, for fear of the Jews, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus; and Pilate granted permission. He came therefore, and took away His body.
    39. And Nicodemus came also, who had first come to Him by night; bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds weight.
    40. And so they took the body of Jesus, and bound it in linen wrappings with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews.
    41. Now in the place where He was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one had yet been laid.
    42. Therefore on account of the Jewish day of preparation, because the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there.

    I don’t think anybody will deny those narratives in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. It is very clear here.
     
  7. Yoshua

    Yoshua Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2015
    Messages:
    1,307
    Ratings:
    +176
    Religion:
    Evangelical Christian
    Truly, it is the same body before Jesus was crucified. Based on your quoted verses above from the gospel of Luke, He showed to His disciples that He has a physical body. He was raised in the same body.
    What you just explained here is bringing more evidence that Jesus was truly crucified.

    If Jesus is not crucified and died,

    1.) Why Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus took the body of Jesus andand bound it in linen wrappings with the spices (John 19:38-40)? Do they wrap a lived (not dead) body?

    2.) Why there was a tomb?

    3.) Why it is written, that the Christ should suffer and rise again from the dead the third day?

    4.) Why Jesus had the imprint of the nails and showed it to Thomas?

    Interpreting that Jesus is not crucified and died on the cross was obviously a very weak and unsound interpretation. You know why? It is because from the start of the Gospel narratives of Matthew down to John plus the letter of Paul to churches were entirely strong evidences proving Jesus was crucified, died and resurrected.
    That is what Quran is saying. Why should you seek Quran if you need information about the life and works of Jesus Christ??:shrug:

    It is logical enough to think that if somebody want to know about Jesus Christ, he should need a Bible, and not Quran. If I want to know about Buddhism, I should look after the book about Buddhism from a Buddhist source—and not from a Christian or Hindu. I hope you get my point.

    Thanks;)
     
  8. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,093
    Ratings:
    +389
    Religion:
    Christian
    The passage teaches EVERYTHING of the kind. John 2:16 is when Jesus was in the temple. Are you claiming Jesus was referring to the the earthly temple in Jerusalem at John 14:2-4?

    Or are you saying Jesus was referring to a now imaginary temple because it wouldn't be built until the far distant future?

    Mansions? Where are you getting mansions from? The passage Yoshua quoted said "dwelling places". Are you stating houses can't be mansions? Do you realize that a mansion is simply a large house? Mansions are not, by definition, larger than houses. Why? Because mansions are houses. What you consider a house may be considered a mansion by the homeless guy on the street. Any house with a few rooms can be a mansion, and all mansions are houses. This sounds like a strange play on words to me, all the more stranger since "dwelling places" rather than "mansions" was mentioned.

    I think you have this reversed. It's not that heaven has to get prepared for us, it's we who should prepare for heaven. Also I'm not exactly seeing what this has to do with the conversation. Are you cutting and pasting from somewhere without proper attribution?

    You stated that this is something "I'll show you" (above). But your response sounds very much like its coming from some other source.

    But your assertion is that God's house is always on earth. So was Jesus telling Peter that upon death he would reside in a spiritual house on earth?

    John 13:36 states: "Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards."

    In other words, all Jesus was saying was that he was going to die and that at some point Peter would die also? I suspect most people, especially non-believers, believed this.

    However, I'm still not following you on this. If Peter is following Jesus simply by dying, then by this definition anyone who has died has followed Jesus.
     
  9. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,093
    Ratings:
    +389
    Religion:
    Christian
    What exactly is the bible saying to you? That we have more than one deity?? So the bible really teaches polytheism, and there is no God but Almighty God and another Mighty god named Jesus?

    Did the Jews have it wrong...God is one and but the other makes two?
     
  10. Jabar

    Jabar “Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2016
    Messages:
    1,610
    Ratings:
    +140
    Religion:
    Islam أَسْلَمُوا
    Did you refute my other points?

    This all puts contradiction even if it were to be correct, time does not permit me to answer all of those.

    :)
     
  11. Jabar

    Jabar “Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2016
    Messages:
    1,610
    Ratings:
    +140
    Religion:
    Islam أَسْلَمُوا
    You did not refute my other claims, there was a tomb, so that Jesus could not be found by the Jews, he was in there. Why would it have been spacious and vast? It is for Jesus peace be upon him. The food he ate was to prove he was alive and physical.

    • The verse of Bible says: For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the Son Of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    Jonah was alive, this was a miracle. So for the sign or miracle to be full fill Jesus also had to be alive.

    :)
     
  12. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,093
    Ratings:
    +389
    Religion:
    Christian
    No argument from me here! The vast majority of Christians believe Christ rose from the dead in a physical body. It's the Shepard's Chapel and Jehovah Witnesses who allege Christ rose from the dead as some sort of "spirit creature".

    I think you made an astute observation, but your question is probably better directed at a member of these groups, like HockeyCowboy or JehovahIsGodAlmighty.

    Jesus rose from the dead... in the same body he died in, so he was quite alive upon his resurrection. If he simply arose as a spirit it would be more of a haunting then a resurrection. Again, the questions you ask are best directed at those who believe Jesus arose as a spirit.

    Yoshua has already answered your questions about the crucifixion, and I agree with him Jesus was crucified. My bible is very clear on this point. I would consider any attempt to prove Jesus not crucified from a reputable Christian bible as an exercise in futility.

    However I would be interested in hearing from our JW friends as to why the stone was removed if the only thing that arose was Jesus' spirit.
     
  13. Notaclue

    Notaclue Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2016
    Messages:
    99
    Ratings:
    +7
    Religion:
    Christian
     
  14. Jabar

    Jabar “Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2016
    Messages:
    1,610
    Ratings:
    +140
    Religion:
    Islam أَسْلَمُوا
    Do not think so.

    :)
     
  15. JehovahIsGodAlmighty

    Joined:
    May 10, 2016
    Messages:
    36
    Ratings:
    +8
    Religion:
    Christian
    First off, Jesus never claimed that he was God Almighty or that he should be worshipped. "The true worshippers will worship the Father" says John 4:23. Jehovah is The Father (Isaiah 64:8) and everyone, even those with a basic knowledge of the scriptures know Jesus is the Son of God. - Mark 5:7. So how can we distinguish the truth from the lies? Are we able to cut through this trinity doctrine and expose it for what it is, an unscriptual man made doctrine? (Mark 7:7)

    The answer is found at 1 John 4:6 and 1 John 4:15 why not go and get your bible and see what it says.....
     
  16. Jabar

    Jabar “Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2016
    Messages:
    1,610
    Ratings:
    +140
    Religion:
    Islam أَسْلَمُوا
    These people are blinded by today's society.

    :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. JehovahIsGodAlmighty

    Joined:
    May 10, 2016
    Messages:
    36
    Ratings:
    +8
    Religion:
    Christian
  18. Jabar

    Jabar “Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2016
    Messages:
    1,610
    Ratings:
    +140
    Religion:
    Islam أَسْلَمُوا
  19. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,093
    Ratings:
    +389
    Religion:
    Christian
    I’m not too sure what you mean by “ separate events”. I believe Jesus is God, not a separately created event. Col 1:18 states Jesus is preeminent…not in “some”, “most” or “[other]” things”, as some might claim or spuriously interject, but in all things. That’s quite a statement from Paul given the status of God in Christian life.

    Since I don’t see these verses describing Christ as a created event but as a statement of his preeminence, your question might best be answered by those who do. For instance…if first born always means first created, how was Jesus “first born of the dead” when he was neither the first to die nor the first to be resurrected? You can then apply whatever logic they use with “first born of the dead” to analyze their understanding of “first born of creation.”
     
  20. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2010
    Messages:
    3,024
    Ratings:
    +182
    Religion:
    Christian
    1. I never indicated the non-existence of full truth. It does exist. But not by one earthly organization. I'm saying no current earthly Christian denomination has the full truth. Paul indicates knowing the "full" truth (having all knowledge) is not a criteria for faith. Hope, love, faith and knowledge (of truth) are all individual and separate Christian characteristics. Faith, hope, or knowledge of truth are not the greatest. The greatest is love (1 Co 13:12-13).

    2. If that were the case, every Christian denomination would have the same teachings and statements of faith.

    3. Christianity is not a denomination. It is a religion. No full consensus exists between the thousands of denominations and sects that comprise the Christian religion. The fact Christianity is too broad (I'm assuming you mean there are too many differing beliefs) is evidence the full truth is not privied to any single denomination.

    4. Are you admitting your interpretation is incorrect?

    5. Not anymore than you agree with every single thing your human mentors teach. And if you do, then you are not proving things to yourself, as the scriptures admonish.
     
Loading...