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Is Jesus God?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Orbit, Feb 7, 2015.

  1. Yoshua

    Yoshua Well-Known Member

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    Hi Jeh,

    Because there is one God who exists in the person of Christ; He was sent by the Father to live with us and shared the truths about God. Jesus is in human form, and in God form; He should do the way how human do to pray, and to give glory to the Father.
    This is prophesied by Isaiah and this is the fulfillment in the New Testament.

    Isa. 40:3
    3. A voice is calling, "Clear the way for the Lord (YHWH) in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.

    Mal. 3:1
    1. "Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord (Adonai), whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the Lord (YHWH) of hosts.

    Matt. 3:3
    3. For this is the one referred to by Isaiah the prophet, saying, "The voice of one crying in the wilderness,

    Mark 1:1-3
    1. The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
    2. As it is written in Isaiah the prophet,
    "Behold, I send My messenger before Your face,
    3. The voice of one crying in the wilderness,
    `Make ready the way of the Lord,

    Col. 2:9
    9. For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

    No doubt that His nature is God.
    He is praying to God as the scripture says.
    12. And it was at this time that He went off to the mountain to pray, and He spent the whole night in prayer to God.
    JWs is always say He is a creation. Jesus was in the beginning with God. The Word became flesh. It says nothing was made without Him, then how can He be created?

    John 1:2-3
    2. He was in the beginning with God.
    3. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
    Because the Scripture was clear about their existence as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. ONE God exists in three persons.
    Jesus lived with us. Jesus is in human form, therefore His position as man makes the Father is greater--but not His divine nature.

    Phil. 2:6-7
    6. who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
    7. but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

    Heb.2:9
    9. But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
    How can Jesus will say those things to elevate Himself if He should show to people how to pray and worship God (Father)? He is in human form.
    In the first place, we will go back where Jesus is in human form, but in divine nature--as God (deity). Why He was at right hand of God? this is the proof that God exist in the person of Christ.
    It is not confusing. The word “trinity” is not found in the Bible as the word “Bible.”. It is not about the word but the existence of God.

    Thanks
     
  2. Yoshua

    Yoshua Well-Known Member

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    Hi Notaclue,

    God was the Word. The Word is not the same person as Father God but same in essence or nature. I believe they exist already.

    Thanks
     
  3. Yoshua

    Yoshua Well-Known Member

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    How about this one.

    John 20:27-28
    27. Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand, and put it into My side; and be not unbelieving, but believing."
    28. Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

    Thanks
     
  4. Jabar

    Jabar “Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”

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    Eternal life, by what? If you mean Heaven then yes. People who follow him, besides the word begotten is a interpolation as said by 30 Christians scholars of the highest eminence backed by nominees. It then was thrown out of the Bible.
    “For hGod so loved ithe world,9jthat he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not kperish but have eternal life.
    Anyone, who follows his commandments will enter eternal life, otherwise known as Heaven. Jesus never claimed divinity in this verse.

    1 Peter 2:24:

    The Apostles thought he was crucified.

    Look here:

    Luke 24:36-
    While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."

    They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost.

    He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds?

    Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

    When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet.

    And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?"

    They gave him a piece of broiled fish,

    and he took it and ate it in their presence.

    He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

    Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

    . . .

    Luke 24:47:

    and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.


    As you can see, he was not crucified.

    :)
     
  5. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    I'm just curious on why you think that eternal life is heaven going.... I dont find any verse in scripture that says, we are going to heaven. Can you show me a verse that says, that "when you die you will go to heaven"? I read that we will stay here on earth 'with" Christ forever and ever. Interesting......
     
  6. Jabar

    Jabar “Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”

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    In what the Bible or Qur´an?

    “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
    18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
    19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
    20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
    :)
     
  7. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    So that's telling you that we go to heaven? First of all, there is no verse that says, that we go to heaven. "Heaven" and "earth" is not literal, it's symbollic. The earth will never be destroyed. God made that for man and for a "coming kingdom' to be "set up" at Christ's return. So many verses that tell us that Christ will rule from Jerusalem, Israel will be restored, David's throne will be restored, the kingdoms of man will be destroyed, temples will be built on earth for people to worship in, in the kingdom age.

    Also remember that when we get baptised, we are now in the promises of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Are you familiar with the promises? We are part of that now too, which is wonderful!..... Heavens, earth, moon, stars, waters, air, etc... can have symbolic meanings and that is all through the bible.

    But what I was looking for from you was, show me a verse that actually says.... "we go to heaven". I cant find one, but what I do see, is the return of Christ to the earth and we reigning with him forever and ever. Scripture tells us that the earth will change in a way of, one king, one rulership, a king will rule in righteousness, peace on earth, no more wars, etc, etc. Wonderful to know that is going to happen.
     
  8. Jabar

    Jabar “Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”

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    It explicitly says until the earth and heaven meaning space disappear. So, after the verse talks about deeds and kingdom of Heaven. There is no way this is symbolic due to the context.

    I would like to ask if you believe in the Trinity, you might as well also believe that the apostles were gods. Because people think when Jesus says he is the Word that he suddenly is divine. But it actually means they are one with purpose, like they have the same faith.

    You are merely stating your beliefs and giving no references or evidence behind them.

    :)
     
  9. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    Actually, it is symbolic. All of the bible and I mean all, is about God's Kingdom "staying" on earth forever. All through scripture.

    Of course I dont. That's false doctrine. That is a man made doctrine.

    That's actually what I believe in too. My father and I are one. Jesus is NOT saying he's God, he's saying that he is one in purpose and is doing his Father's will. They are of the same mind, meaning, that they both think alike. They are in synce with each other.

    Actually, they are my beliefs and I have plenty of evidence that shows that, which I will state.

    Ok, getting back to my question.... show me a verse...... You are merely stating your beliefs and giving no references or evidence behind them.
     
  10. Jabar

    Jabar “Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”

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    I have provided references and evidence but you deny them. . .

    In your belief that they are symbolic without giving evidence, i have stated the context meaning the real heaven.

    Anyhow, since i am generous, i will show you some more verses.

    This is Hell:
    Revelation 21:8

    But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    Revelation 20:10
    And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. NOT SYMBOLIC, because it also is talking of everlasting punishment.

    Revelation 20:14 - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    :)
     
  11. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    How can "death and hell (grave)" be cast into a lake of fire? Think about it. IT's symbolic language. And eternal life is the righteous being made immortal to rule with Christ on earth. The only people that will be made to live forever will be the immortal righteous saints.

    But again.... can you show me a verse that tells us that we go to heaven.....
     
  12. Jabar

    Jabar “Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”

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    Brother it never said grave casts to lake of fire, it says the second life which is the afterlife and for the disbelievers they go to basically Hell-Fire.

    You are twisting your own scripture, those verses show it is not SYMBOLIC but your wrong interpretation.

    What do you mean be immortal? So, why are people not immortal?

    Did you just say the only people who will be made to live forever are immortal righteous saints????

    Hahaha. I am disappointed.

    It never portrays eternal life, think about it eternal life? That is boring, eternal life is obviously meaning heaven. You are switching your own Bible. So, are you telling me the saints all are living for eternal? Does this not contradict science as well? The earth is expected to cease to exist along with the Sun.

    It is all illogical.

    :(
     
  13. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    Let's get back to my question and then I"ll answer all of yours. Give me a verse that says we go to heaven.. because you are assuming we go to heaven.... You cant find one, can you....
     
  14. Jabar

    Jabar “Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”

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    Brother, i believe your comprehension skills are very limited.

    The verses i stated assume we go to heaven.
     
  15. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    I"m sorry, shouldnt I be saying that to you?.....

    "Assume"?....... Wow..... And this is the exact problem with "mainstream Christianity".
     
  16. Jabar

    Jabar “Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”

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    Your own Christianity is abnormality and disbelief.

    And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. NOT SYMBOLIC, because it also is talking of everlasting punishment.

    This says righteous into eternal life which is Heaven. If this is ''symbolic'' then why would it say everlasting punishment? As in other verses everlasting punishment is Hell-fire.

    It is talking about the concept of Heaven and Hell.

    The wrongdoers go to Hell and righteous to Heaven.

    In no way is this symbolic.

    :)
     
  17. Yoshua

    Yoshua Well-Known Member

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    Do you mean that the Greek text of John 3:16 does not have “monogenes” as only begotten?
    24. and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
    It says “His body on the cross,” it is clear enough to understand that crucifixion happened to bore our sins.
    Luke 24: 36-45 is after the crucifixion; it is Christ’ resurrection.

    How about this one? You missed Luke 23:32-46, and instead go forward to Christ’ resurrection.

    The Crucifixion
    33. And when they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left.
    34. But Jesus was saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing." And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves.
    35. And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One."
    36. And the soldiers also mocked Him, coming up to Him, offering Him sour wine,
    37. and saying, "If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself!"
    38. Now there was also an inscription above Him, "THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS."
    39. And one of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!"
    40. But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
    41. "And we indeed justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong."
    42. And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!"
    43. And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
    44. And it was now about the sixth hour, and darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour,
    45. the sun being obscured; and the veil of the temple was torn in two.
    46. And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into Thy hands I commit My spirit." And having said this, He breathed His last.

    Thanks
     
  18. Yoshua

    Yoshua Well-Known Member

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    Hi Moorea,

    John 14:2-4
    2. "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
    3. "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
    4. "And you know the way where I am going."

    1 Kings 8:30
    30. "And listen to the supplication of Thy servant and of Thy people Israel, when they pray toward this place; hear Thou in heaven Thy dwelling place; hear and forgive.

    Deut. 26:15
    15. `Look down from Thy holy habitation, from heaven, and bless Thy people Israel, and the ground which Thou hast given us, a land flowing with milk and honey, as Thou didst swear to our fathers.'

    There is heaven--as our dwelling place. The Old Testament and New Testament talks about heaven, our dwelling place. The earth is our temporary dwelling place wherein we still living in our fleshy body.

    Thanks
     
  19. Jabar

    Jabar “Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”

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    Jesus was not crucified as i stated that the apostles thought he did. Which is why they believed they saw a Ghost, now you will say this is after Jesus was crucified.

    Obviously the Qur'an is against it, but i will use your own Bible to prove that he still was not.

    Remember i do not believe the Bible to be the Word Of God, it may contain certain portions, which we may consider to be the word of God, but it contains also the word of Historians, and Prophets.

    Even though i do not believe the Bible is the word of God, which you probably do, i will still give you references from Bible that prove he was not crucified.

    In 1 Corinthians ch.15 v.42-44:

    So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;
    43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
    44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

    There were no eye witnesses because look in Gospel Of Mark Ch.14 V.50

    Then everyone deserted him and fled.

    When Jesus was in risk, all the desiples left. All of them fled. It was from heresy that he was a spirit. That is what they thought.

    Further one: Jesus himself says:

    Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

    He then proceeds to eat broiled fish, the next verse. He was trying to prove that he was not a spirit. They were overjoyed that he did not die physical in front of them and also ate fish. To prove he was a physical body and chewed in front of them. He was in flesh and bones, a physical body!

    SEE.

    When Mary goes to the Tomb of Jesus on the third day.
    Gospel Of John 20:1:

    Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.

    Why did Mary Magdalene go to the Tomb on the third day? If Jesus was supposedly dead, why would she? The reply is given in Gospel Of Mark Ch. 16 V.1:

    When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body.

    To anoint him. Do Jews massage dead bodies on the third day? No. Do Christians massage dead bodies on the third day? No.

    Do Muslims? No. So why is she going to the Tomb to massage him who has died on the third day according to you? Because she was the only one besides Joseph Of Armethia and Nicodimus who gave the burial bath to Jesus peace be upon him. And when Jesus body was brought down from the cross, she might have seen some life in the limb body. But naturally, she is not going to say he is alive. Otherwise, they will put him to death again. Seeing some life in him, she comes back on the third day after the Sabbeth day to look for Jesus alive.

    She finds that the stone has been rolled away. In Gospel Of Mark Ch. 16 V. 4 and the other verse:

    But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away.

    The Question is why was the stone removed and placed at the side? And winding sheets Unwound?

    If Jesus was resurrected as a spiritual body, does a spirit require a stone of the entry of the stone to be removed. If it is a spirit, that could not have stopped him.
    So the question is why was the stone removed and the winding sheets unwound? It is not required. If it is a physical body the stone had to be removed. The winding sheets, had to be removed.

    THIS PROVES JESUS WAS A PHYSICAL BODY AND THE TOMB WAS A PRIVATE PROPERTY IN WHICH JESUS WAS KEPT.

    Further if you read in Gospel of John Ch.20 V.15:

    He asked her, "Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?" Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him."

    Mary supposed Jesus to be a gardener. Do resurrected bodies look like gardeners? NO. Jesus was disguised as a gardener because he was afraid of the Jews. A spiritual body need not to be afraid of the Jews because according to the Bible a man only dies once and after that is the day of judgement.

    Jesus said in Gospel of John Ch.20 V.36 about spirtualized bodies.

    If he is spiritualized why did he disguise himself? It is obvious, he was not. He says to Mary in the style of his talk that she notices him and she rushes towards him.
    In Gospel Of John Ch.20 V.15-16-17:

    He says do not touch me because he was a physical body. Imagine the physical pain he went through going through the emotion supposedly put on the cross and stuff.

    However, But in Gospel of John Ch. 20 V.17: He said i have not yet ascended to my father. Meaning he has not yet been dead.

    Jesus explicitly said that he was not yet resurrected proving that he was alive.

    It is mentioned in Gospel Of Mark Ch. 16 V. 11:
    When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.
    They heard Jesus was alive from her.

    Further, it is mentioned in Gospel Of Matthew Ch.12 V.38
    Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from you."

    People tell him to see a sign. They wanted a miracle.

    Next 2 Verses:

    He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

    For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    He does not mention anything about the fish, or anything. But he said not sign shall be given to you but the sign of Jonah as Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of fish so shall Son of Man be 3 days and 3 nights in heart of earth.

    Jonah was alive. So, for Jesus to fulfill the prophecy he was alive too. When Jonah was alive that was a miracle of God, the same miracle will happen to Jesus when he is alive just as Jonah was. Sunday morning the tomb was empty. The sign says 3 days and 3 nights. As Jonah was, so shall the sun of man. Jesus was for 1 day and 2 night supposedly by the Christians. Is 3 days and 3 nights, the same as 1 day and 1 night? NO! The time factor was not fullfill. If that is what you believe.

    In conclusion, he was not crucified. 1) He was brought down the cross in three hours on it. 2) Jesus two crossmates were alive. 3)His legs were not broken. 4) The stone was removed and winding sheets were unwound proving he was alive. 5) He was diguised as a gardener because he was alive trying to be saved from the Jews. 6) The tomb was roomy and spacious. This was for Jesus as he was alive. 7) Jesus tells Mary not to touch him because he was a physical body and it will hurt him since he was on the cross for so long and was then brought down. He was in pain, proving that he was alive. 8) He said i have not yet ascended to my father, meaning he was alive 9) Mary was not afraid recognising Jesus (pbuh) 10) In the upper room, he showed his hands and feet to prove that he was not a spirit but a physical body and alive. 11) They were overjoyed to see him because they thought he was dead but he was alive. 12) He ate a piece of broiled fish and Honeycomb to prove that he was alive. 13) The disciples had heard from Mary that he was alive. 14) The sign of Jonah, as Jonah was three days and three nights, so shall the son of man. Jonah was alive, and so was Jesus pbuh. This was the answer of Jesus when asked for a miracle. So the miracle was that Jesus was alive and saved. So, in short Jesus peace be upon him was put on the cross but he did not die. If he is put on the cross and he dies, then he is crucified. But if he is put on it and not then he was NOT. So, you see Jesus was not crucified.

    :)
     
  20. Jabar

    Jabar “Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”

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    Additional Info:

    Qur'an unambiguously and explicitly states Jesus was not crucified:

    Qur'an An-Nisa Chapter.4 Verse. 157

    And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.
     
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