Is Jesus God?

[Thanda]

A son gets life from a father. Right or wrong?

And what does "only begotten" mean?

"Only-begotten Son of God" -- you know, if Paul, Peter, and the other writers of the Greek Testament wanted to indicate that Jesus and His Father were equal, but keep the familial closeness, they would have called them brothers.

And, that reminds me: Paul says Jesus has "brothers", those who will rule with Him in the Heavens. (Hebrews 2:11-12)
Would God have brothers? No!
What a cloudy, ambiguous understanding of the Scriptures, trinitarians have!
Even the simple words of John 17:3 -- part of Jesus' prayer to His Father, not Himself) -- are obfuscated when applying a trinitarians slant. Because His words to his Father, ".....you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent forth", now make no sense; " "only" doesn't mean "only"

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This is tiring.

Only when wearing rose-colored glasses, and ignoring the rest of the Scriptures.
Read Matthew 10:40. Then read Acts of the Apostles 9:4-5. Applying your reasoning, Jesus is now the disciples.

John 10:30, "I and the Father are one." Trinitarians say, "See? They're the same!"
But reading John 17:20-22 clarifies things. There are one in the sense of purpose, and unity.

Context is always needed. And by 'context' I mean the whole Bible.

Heck, you can't begin to understand who the serpent in Genesis is, until you read
John 8:44, and especially Revelation 12:9.

In your opinion what weaknesses does Jesus have (note the present tense) that disqualify him from being referred to as a God?

I will define a God as an being who is omnipotent, omniscient and all-benevolent.

 

[james2ko]

James2ko, that is superb reasoning! Yes, the meaning at Genesis 3:20 is clear.

As Luke said regarding Paul at Acts of the Apostles 17:2-3, "he reasoned with them from the Scriptures." What a fine example you provided of logical reasoning!!

Since I was once on the other side of this discussion, I'll be the first to tell you traditional/popular teachings can be extremely difficult to overcome, no matter how much biblical evidence you present. Not saying all traditional beliefs are inherently false, what I am saying is that they must be inline with the "original" languages and thought of scripture. A wise man once summed up nicely the consequences of allowing tradition to comfortably settle in our consciousness:

“Tradition becomes our security, and when the mind is secure it is in decay.”​

 

[atpollard]

I suppose that by the same questionable reasoning one could also say that Eve was not alive or created, because the Bible says she was the mother of all living.” (Gen 3:20). Eve was not the mother of either herself or Adam. Could we logically conclude she was the mother of all "other" living human beings?

It would be just as illogical to conclude Christ is not created simply because the Bible says “all things were created through him” (Col 1:16 ASV). Could we equally conclude all "other" things were created through him? Especially since Christ and Paul assert He was the Father's first creative act (Rev 3:14; Col 1:15). Created as a one of a kind God/YHVH (Isa 43:10-11), before time began (2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2). The Father and Son/Logos then created everything else (angels, universe-- time (Gen 1:1 Joh 1:1-3)

I am going to be blunt here, quoting scripture is pointless.
I have followed enough of the debate between katiemygirl and others to see that the very meaning of the original Greek and Hebrew is contested. The English translation of all scripture is thus rendered meaningless as a point of common reference.

I am asking for nothing more complex than clarification on JW doctrine on creation: Who created whom. I asked this because in one post, Jesus created the Angels and everything else and in the next post Adam is Divine because he was directly created by God (exactly as Jesus was created by God). This appears to be a contradiction that warrants clarification.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

In your opinion what weaknesses does Jesus have (note the present tense) that disqualify him from being referred to as a God?

I will define a God as an being who is omnipotent, omniscient and all-benevolent.

I'm a little confused with your definition. Not so much the definition, but your subject. You say, "a God." Not all gods meet those qualifications. Satan is called "the god of this world," but he certainly isn't benevolent!

Regarding Jesus, you say, "(note the present tense)." Why? For The True God, would the past be different than the present? The true God is unchanging...what He is in the present, He was in the past...He doesn't change, and the Bible indicates that. (Compare Malachi 3:6.)

However, you seem to indicate a difference between Jesus in the present, and Jesus in the past. You're right (although maybe not to the extent you imply). Philippians 2:9 states "God highly exalted him," a different position than Jesus had prior. If Jesus was God already,, why would he need to be exalted?

Let me ask you this: would a real God have another God, he worshipped?? Jesus does. (John 20:17; Revelation 3:12.)

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Who created whom.

Fathers create sons. So Jehovah God created Jesus.

Regarding Adam, Jesus said at Matthew 19:4-6: "Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

If Jesus had created them, he would have said, "I which made them." Or at least "we". Was Jesus lying?

 

[Deeje]

What exactly does Son of God mean to you?

What does the word "son" mean in any context? A son requires a father....a father naturally precedes a son. Jesus was the "son of God" before his human birth and because Jesus and his Father use terminology that is unambiguous to their intended audience, a son is a son....and a father is a father. It wasn't supposed to be a mystery.

Jesus is a creation of his Father. You can see that clear as day in Col 1:15, 16 and Rev 3:14.

Do you consider yourself a Christian? If so, then you are a part of that Christendom you seem to greatly abhor.

I heeded the command in Rev 18:4, 5 a long time ago. "Babylon the great" is the devil's world empire of false worship. He caters to all religious tastes, from the fanatical to the faithless atheist.

Christendom is the most reprehensible part of his empire because she fits the pictured of a true harlot, committing spiritual adultery with "the kings of the earth" by forming friendships with them and obeying them instead of Christ. (James 4:4) This is why she is no friend of God. This is why we are no part of Christendom.

 

[Thanda]

I'm a little confused with your definition. Not so much the definition, but your subject. You say, "a God." Not all gods meet those qualifications. Satan is called "the god of this world," but he certainly isn't benevolent!

Regarding Jesus, you say, "(note the present tense)." Why? For The True God, would the past be different than the present? The true God is unchanging...what He is in the present, He was in the past...He doesn't change, and the Bible indicates that. (Compare Malachi 3:6.)

However, you seem to indicate a difference between Jesus in the present, and Jesus in the past. You're right (although maybe not to the extent you imply). Philippians 2:9 states "God highly exalted him," a different position than Jesus had prior. If Jesus was God already,, why would he need to be exalted?

There were a few reasons I specified the present tense. Most significantly it is because some believe God does not have a fleshly body. They believe a body is some sort of limitation and that therefore Jesus was limited in power while it was on earth. Also Jesus was said to have been made a little lower than the Angels during his sojourn on earth. So there is an argument that there were specific limitations put on Jesus while he was on earth - that is why I specified the present tense.

Let me ask you this: would a real God have another God, he worshipped?? Jesus does. (John 20:17; Revelation 3:12.)

Yes he could. I have given a specific definition of a God. One that most people would find pretty sufficient. What else could you describe an omnipotent, omniscience and all-benevolent being? That Jesus is not the Father does not mean He is not a God.

In fact I think that is where the problem arises. The meaning of the word God. As far as I can tell the word seems to have a few meanings. For one it can describe, as I've intimated, a being with universal power and knowledge. It can also describe the creator of the universe. It is can also describe the being whom we worship who is called the Father. Jesus qualifies (unless you can prove otherwise) by the first two definitions. That he doesn't qualify for the last definition proves only one thing: that Jesus and his Father are two separate beings with two different roles.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God. He is not a son of God like angels.

You continue to belittle Him, equating Him with human beings and now angels.

I worship the Father, through His Son. It would be impossible to worship Jehovah without going through Jesus. Jesus is the way to the Father. When you worship the Father, you are worshiping the Son. We read in the gospels and in the letters that Jesus was worshiped. He was also prayed to.

You have not told us what it means to be the Son of God.

It is verifiable that others, even humans, have been called Sons of God. As to being impossible to worship God without Jesus ... the ENTIRE OT is nothing but that. Jews do this all the time! That the NT claims people were worshipping Jesus does not make him God. After all, all throughout the bible it complains people worship other gods than Yahweh and do you consider THOSE entities gods as well?

Satan has and always will, seek to teach men that Jesus is not a Divine being. If the Divinity of Jesus was not hidden in the garb of humanity,, nobody would be able to look upon Jesus and live.

When He returns to get His saints,, we shall see Him as He really is. and what of the wicked? They shall be killed by the brightness of His Coming. On that day, at the appearance of Jesus,, even the Sun shall be ashamed at it's own brightness in comparison to it's Creator.

Jesus is the Express Image of His Father.

Who raised Jesus from the grave? If you say God the Father,, you are right. If you say Jesus raised Himself,, you are right. And if you say the Holy Spirit raised Jesus, you are right yet again. all three are God.

From Luke 4:
33And in the synagogue there was a man, that had a spirit of an unclean demon; and he cried out with a loud voice, 34Ah! what have we to do with thee, Jesus thou Nazarene? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God. 35And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. And when the demon had thrown him down in the midst, he came out of him, having done him no hurt.

Now, it is Satan and his demons claiming Jesus is the Holy One of God. As I recall, Jesus said that Satan is the Father of Lies. So ...?

In your opinion what weaknesses does Jesus have (note the present tense) that disqualify him from being referred to as a God?

I will define a God as an being who is omnipotent, omniscient and all-benevolent.

Then by your own mouth Jesus cannot be God. Jesus is not shown to be omnipotent. Jesus does not know such things that God knows. That Jesus does not understand that gentiles can have faith is both evidence against omniscience AND omnibenevolence, as Jesus is rather clear he only cares about Jews.

 

[Deeje]

There were a few reasons I specified the present tense. Most significantly it is because some believe God does not have a fleshly body. They believe a body is some sort of limitation and that therefore Jesus was limited in power while it was on earth. Also Jesus was said to have been made a little lower than the Angels during his sojourn on earth. So there is an argument that there were specific limitations put on Jesus while he was on earth - that is why I specified the present tense.

Can you tell me what you believe were his limitations? And why he was limited in this way?

I have given a specific definition of a God. One that most people would find pretty sufficient. What else could you describe an omnipotent, omniscience and all-benevolent being? That Jesus is not the Father does not mean He is not a God.

Do you think that Jesus would qualify as "a god" but not "THE God"?.....because this would agree with the Bible.

In fact I think that is where the problem arises. The meaning of the word God. As far as I can tell the word seems to have a few meanings. For one it can describe, as I've intimated, a being with universal power and knowledge. It can also describe the creator of the universe. It is can also describe the being whom we worship who is called the Father. Jesus qualifies (unless you can prove otherwise) by the first two definitions. That he doesn't qualify for the last definition proves only one thing: that Jesus and his Father are two separate beings with two different roles.

You are correct. "Jesus and his Father are two separate beings with two different roles"...but it doesn't necessarily mean that they are the same God......does it?

 

[Thanda]

Can you tell me what you believe were his limitations? And why he was limited in this way?

For one he could die. But for the most part I'm not worried about his body. I mentioned the fact that others believe a body is a limitation and that therefore Jesus was limited while on Earth since he had a body.

Do you think that Jesus would qualify as "a god" but not "THE God"?.....because this would agree with the Bible.

Precisely. But more like "a God" than "a god" since he forms part of the Godhead consisting of the Father, the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Ghost.

You are correct. "Jesus and his Father are two separate beings with two different roles"...but it doesn't necessarily mean that they are the same God......does it?

This sentence appears contradictory. I'm confused.

 

[Mr. Beebe]

Now, it is Satan and his demons claiming Jesus is the Holy One of God. As I recall, Jesus said that Satan is the Father of Lies. So ...?

The demons know Who Jesus is. And they declare it mockingly.. so Jesus rebuked them and wouldn't allow them to speak.,, just as the demon in the girl that followed Paul around declaring "These men are servants of the Most High God who declare to us the way of Salvation."...after the demon possessed girl did this for many days,, Paul being greatly annoyed, cast the demon out.

Listen to you,,, here you are defending Satan and his demons knowing they possessed a human being and used them as the medium to mock Christ and His mission.

Is the devil using you now to make it appear that Jesus is now the liar? Are you an advocate for Satan in that you are now claiming Jesus is the slanderer?

 

[Deeje]

For one he could die. But for the most part I'm not worried about his body. I mentioned the fact that others believe a body is a limitation and that therefore Jesus was limited while on Earth since he had a body.

Do you believe that Jesus when on earth was 100% human? Was he also 100% God? Because this is what doesn't add up. Jesus wasn't 200% anything.

He did not have to be God to offer his life for us...all he had to be was Adam's equal....sinless.

Precisely. But more like "a God" than "a god" since he forms part of the Godhead consisting of the Father, the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Ghost.

Why can't Jesus be 100% divine but also be 100% human? These two are not incompatible. If Jesus was God, then he was an immortal...which means he could not die. He had to be 100% human for that to happen. His "divinity" doesn't make him God, but a divine being produced by God. Since the original language words used in the Bible for "god" (elohim Heb. and theos Gr) mean "a mighty one", neither of these words apply exclusively to the Father. Jesus can rightly be called "a god" (small g) because it simply means "a person of divine origin or endowed with divine authority". Jesus was both, but never is he called "Almighty God" in a single passage of scripture.

This sentence appears contradictory. I'm confused.

I am saying that Jesus and his Father ARE two separate beings and that only one of them is "the true God" as Jesus himself said in prayer to his Father.....

"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." Jesus differentiated himself from his Father here when he had opportunity to declare his status if he was God.

The apostle Paul identified Jesus as "God's holy servant". (Acts 4:30) Can the supreme sovereign of the universe ever be a servant to anyone?

 

[NathanShepard8888]

From the Southern Baptist Faith and Message:

B. God the Son
. He ascended into heaven and is now exalted at the right hand of God where He is the One Mediator, fully God...

ully man, in whose Person is effected the reconciliation between God and man. He will return in power and glory to judge the world and to consummate His redemptive mission. He now dwells in all believers as the living and ever present Lord.

Genesis 18:1ff.; Psalms 2:7ff.; 110:1ff.; Isaiah 7:14; Isaiah 53:1-12; Matthew 1:18-23; 3:17; 8:29; 11:27; 14:33; 16:16,27; 17:5; 27; 28:1-6,19; Mark 1:1; 3:11; Luke 1:35; 4:41; 22:70; 24:46; John 1:1-18,29; 10:30,38; 11:25-27; 12:44-50; 14:7-11; 16:15-16,28; 17:1-5, 21-22; 20:1-20,28; Acts 1:9; 2:22-24; 7:55-56; 9:4-5,20; Romans 1:3-4; 3:23-26; 5:6-21; 8:1-3,34; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 2:2; 8:6; 15:1-8,24-28; 2 Corinthians 5:19-21; 8:9; Galatians 4:4-5; Ephesians 1:20; 3:11; 4:7-10; Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians 1:13-22; 2:9; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 1 Timothy 2:5-6; 3:16; Titus 2:13-14; Hebrews 1:1-3; 4:14-15; 7:14-28; 9:12-15,24-28; 12:2; 13:8; 1 Peter 2:21-25; 3:22; 1 John 1:7-9; 3:2; 4:14-15; 5:9; 2 John 7-9; Revelation 1:13-16; 5:9-14; 12:10-11; 13:8; 19:16.

I find it easier to accept the harmony of the whole rather than learn enough Greek to re-translate all those verses to say something else and still be in harmony.

John 1 ...
Word = God.
Jesus = Word (The Word became flesh.)
Jesus = God.

Elsewhere ...
Only God forgives sin.
Jesus forgives sin.
Jesus is God.

That's the general pattern if you bother to read all of those references.
Eh, it works for me better than splitting hairs over first created 'God-like' thing that created everything else.
Obviously, others disagree.

My question for you is what can possibly be gained by you and I retreading this well worn debate one more time?
Is there any real chance that you have unanswered questions and I will change your mind by explaining it ONE MORE TIME.

Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. 1 Corinthians 8.6

 

[atpollard]

Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. 1 Corinthians 8.6

Or perhaps, we could try something truly radical and read verses in context:

1 Corinthians 8:4-6
4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

 

[NathanShepard8888]

Or perhaps, we could try something truly radical and read verses in context:

1 Corinthians 8:4-6
4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

It still means the same thing. Jesus is our Lord. Yahweh is our God. Well...my God anyway.

 

[Crypto2015]

The Bible does indeed call Jesus "theos" but this is not a word that is as limited in Greek or Hebrew as it is in English.

In going back to the Hebrew words that are translated “God” we see "ʼEl", probably meaning “Mighty One; Strong One.” (Gen 14:18)
It is used with reference to Yahweh, to other gods, and to men. It is also used extensively in the makeup of proper names, such as Elisha (meaning “God Is Salvation”) and Michael (“Who Is Like God?”). In some places ʼEl appears with the definite article (ha·ʼElʹ, literally, “the God” as in Greek with "ho theos") with reference to Jehovah, thereby distinguishing him from other gods. (Gen 46:3; 2Sam 22:31)

At Isaiah 9:6 Jesus Christ is prophetically called ʼEl Gib·bohrʹ, “Mighty God”, not ʼEl Shad·daiʹ [God Almighty], which is applied to Jehovah at Genesis 17:1.

The Hebrew word ʼelo·himʹ (gods) appears to be from a root meaning “be strong.” ʼElo·himʹ is the plural of ʼelohʹah (god). Sometimes this plural refers to a number of gods (Gen 31:30, 32; 35:2), but more often it is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence. ʼElo·himʹ is used in the Scriptures with reference to Jehovah himself, to angels, to idol gods (singular and plural), and to men.

So "theos" (Greek) and "elohim" (Hebrew) both mean either "God" or "a god"....a divine being or one who has divine authority. No one can deny that Jesus is a divine being, one coming directly from his God and Father, who was given divine authority. (Matt 28:18)



There are two individuals who are spoken about in Gen 1:26. The Creator, YHWH and his firstborn son. The son was used by the Father as the agency through whom creation came, as Paul stated in Col 1:15,16...

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him." (NASB)

Please read the words carefully. An image of something is not the original...it is a reflection of the original.

The term "firstborn" means that he is the first of God's sons (of which he has many.) "Only begotten" means that he is an "only child" of his kind, but still "begotten", which means he needed a "begetter"...a Father who existed before him.
There is no one like this uniquely created son because he is the first and only direct creation of his Father. This son was then used by the Father to fabricate the raw materials that God had brought into existence. There is only one Creator and there is one who was at his Father's side through the whole process as a "master craftsman". (Prov 8:22, 30, 31)



It may well have been the Logos (which means spokesman) because he spoke on behalf of his God. If "no man may see God and yet live", then this was not God....it was his representative, delivering an important message about the birth of Isaac. The angels that accompanied him went on to rescue Lot and his family from Sodom before they brought the cities to ruin. These angels too ate and drank when in human form.



Of course, no one can dispute that Jesus was made "a little lower than the angels" as a human on earth.....he said he was from "the realms above" and that he was sent by God to offer a ransom for Adam's children as a means to reconcile them with their Creator.

However, the scriptures do not identify Jesus as Yahweh......not once. Jesus called his Father "the only true God" without including himself. (John 17:3) The apostles identified the Father as their "one God" separately to Jesus their Lord. (1 Cor 8:5, 6)...were they mistaken? Do you just ignore those scriptures that expose your trinity as false?

Jesus is identified as Yahweh in the Scriptures. He is not a separate God. Otherwise we would be polytheists. Also, the "firstborn son" is just used to indicate that Jesus is the most important among the sons of God. It indicates preeminence, since the firstborn sons were the heirs in the Hebrew culture. That Jesus is not a created being is evident from these passagee (among others): Hebrews 13:8 and John 8:58. Notice that Jesus says "I AM" in a clear allusion to Exodus 3:14.

 

[james2ko]

Fathers create sons. So Jehovah God created Jesus.

Regarding Adam, Jesus said at Matthew 19:4-6: "Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

If Jesus had created them, he would have said, "I which made them." Or at least "we". Was Jesus lying?

Could it be Christ spoke in such fashion to exemplify His unmatched humility of not wanting to be equal with the Father (Php 2:6)? We see a similar example in Mat 22:31-32, where He could have ended vs 31 with "....spoken to you by Me". Act 7:32-38 confirms it was Christ who uttered the words in Mat 22:32.

 

[moorea944]

Jesus is identified as Yahweh in the Scriptures. He is not a separate God. Otherwise we would be polytheists. Also, the "firstborn son" is just used to indicate that Jesus is the most important among the sons of God. It indicates preeminence, since the firstborn sons were the heirs in the Hebrew culture. That Jesus is not a created being is evident from these passagee (among others): Hebrews 13:8 and John 8:58. Notice that Jesus says "I AM" in a clear allusion to Exodus 3:14.

Jesus is NEVER identified as Yahweh in scripture. Ever! And, because Jesus says, "I am" he's God? Wow...

 

[moorea944]

In your opinion what weaknesses does Jesus have (note the present tense) that disqualify him from being referred to as a God?

I will define a God as an being who is omnipotent, omniscient and all-benevolent.

Are you saying what weaknesses does Jesus have now in heaven? The answer to that would be nothing. But it doesnt make him a God. He is "now" immortal. And we will be like that someday too. Jesus is "still" subject to his father and always will be, even when the Kingdom is completed and handed back over to God.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Could it be Christ spoke in such fashion to exemplify His unmatched humility of not wanting to be equal with the Father (Php 2:6)? We see a similar example in Mat 22:31-32, where He could have ended vs 31 with "....spoken to you by Me". Act 7:32-38 confirms it was Christ who uttered the words in Mat 22:32.

I must have missed something: how do Stephen's words, recorded at Acts of the Apostles 7:32-38, confirm Christ was speaking? Are you saying, Christ is Yahweh? That would contradict Psalms 83:18, where it says Yahweh is the Most High, i.e., he has no authority over Him, while 1 Corinthians 11:3 states Christ does have an authority over him.

Also, how do you reason on David's words at Psalms 110:1? In Acts of the Apostles 2:33-36, Peter applied it to Jesus, that Yahweh was talking to Jesus. Even Jesus applied those words to himself, saying David was calling the Messiah, "my Lord." (Not the first LORD.) Certainly Yahweh wasn't talking to Himself!

Or did I (hopefully) misunderstand you?

Just curious, are you Mormon?

Take care, and goodnight.