Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Can you cite what you believe are anti-iChrist quotes from the Qur'an?
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Is Jesus Christianity?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
That's good. I guess it was several years ago. However, without Paul's influence, I see Jesus as a very different character.
Colt
Well-Known Member
Not true, you deny things Jesus said about himself to fit your unbelief. Son of man and Son if God. You take gross liberties with “interpretation” to the point of credulity.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
This verse says that Christ would appear a second time, it does not say that the same man Jesus with the same body will appear a second time. We know that cannot be true unless the Bible is in error, given this verse:
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Indeed, Christ was slated to appear a second time for those who eagerly awaited Him, but the mistake Christians made is that when Jesus actually did appear, Christians were waiting for the same man Jesus in the same body to come down in the physical clouds in the sky, and Jesus never promised to do that. Jesus said we would see the Son of Man in the clouds, but He was not referring to Himself when He said:
Mathew 24:30 "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory."
Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?
Jesus did not write the Book of Revelation and there is no reason to believe that those are the words of Jesus, or that they refer to the same man Jesus..
You are free to believe that if you want to because you have free will, even though that belief is not supported by the Bible in any way. Jesus never promised to return in the same body and Jesus never promised that He would set up a Kingdom of God on earth.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
These two verses in John 18 completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to bear witness unto the truth about God. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to come back to this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”
Colt
Well-Known Member
One example:
And [for] their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.
Qur’an 4:157
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Show me some things that Jesus said about Himself that you think I do not believe, of course bearing in mind that nothing in the gospels were the exact words of Jesus since that would be logically impossible. Not only that but there are over 450 translations of what Jesus purportedly said, so which one are we to believe?.
Colt
Well-Known Member
We have already done that. You don’t believe that he returned after death of his body on his own. You don’t believe that he poured out his spirit after he left. You don’t believe Jesus preexisted in heaven as a divine being. You don’t believe that he exists as The Son of God in heaven now. You deny that Jesus said HE would return in the future.
You have rationalized all those truths away.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
How is that an anti-Christ verse?
It is commonly believed that this verse in the Qur'an means that Jesus did not die on the cross, and even some Muslims believe it means that as they believe that Judas died in the place of Jesus, who did not die on the cross.
Baha'is believe that the body of Jesus died on the cross but the spirit of Christ and the divine reality in Jesus was not crucified, and we believe that is what the verse in the Qur'an really means.
Do Baha’is believe Christ was crucified?
Abdul Bahá calls him a martyr, in Some Answered Questions, but also the Quran states that Jesus wasn’t crucified and rather made to look like he was. What is the official Baha’i view, and if it isn’t compatible with the Quran, why not?
Hope this helps you in your spiritual quest.
"Though we cannot imagine exactly what the Manifestations of the remote past were like, we can be sure of two things: They must have been able to reach their fellow-men in a normal manner-as Baháu'lláh reached His generation, and They were sent from God and thus Divine Beings. The crucifixion as recounted in the New Testament is correct. The meaning of the Quranic version is that the spirit of Christ was not crucified. There is no conflict between the two."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, July 14, 1943)
Here's another related passage
"Regarding your question relative to Surih 4, 156 of the 'Quran' in which Muhammad says that the Jews did not crucify Jesus, the Christ, but one like Him; what is meant by this passage is that although the Jews succeeded in destroying the physical body of Jesus, yet they were impotent to destroy the divine reality in Him."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, March 19, 1938)
https://www.reddit.com/r/bahai/comments/ddig8d/do_bahais_believe_christ_was_crucified/
Colt
Well-Known Member
It is your false hope that nothing in the gospels were exact words of Jesus. The claim that none of Jesus’ apostles or followers wrote anything for decades is absurd and self serving.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, I do not believe that because there is no reason to believe it. Jesus never said that about Himself, gospel writers who never even knew Jesus or the disciples of Jesus wrote fictional stories about Jesus rising from the dead decades after He died.
I do believe that Jesus poured out His spirit after He left when He sent the Spirit of Truth and the Comforter because that is exactly what He promised to do. The Spirit of Truth and Comforter was Baha'u'llah.
I do believe that Jesus preexisted in heaven as a divine being, but not as God.
The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to
picture His state of being. (Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)
I do believe that Jesus exists as the Son of God in heaven now.
I absolutely deny that that the same man Jesus will ever return in the same body, and I will uphold that denial and speak out against it until the day I die.
Jesus never promised to return to earth in the same body after He ascended to heaven, not once in the New Testament. That promise is not in the Bible and you cannot produce it. All the evidence is on my side and you have no evidence by way of ANY Bible verses that say that Jesus ever promised to return to earth in the same body that Christians believe was resurrected. It is simply a Christian belief based upon a gross misinterpretation of Bible verses which led to false beliefs.
Jesus said we would see the Son of Man in the clouds but He never said anyone would see Him in the clouds.
Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?
Matthew 24:2-5 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Please note that when Jesus answered the disciples He never said He was coming, all He said was to be careful because many would come in His name, and many false Christs have, but Baha’u’llah came with a new name (Rev 2:17, Rev 3:12)
But then later, in the same chapter, Jesus told us what would be the signs of the coming of the Son of Man:
Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
That all happened in the 19th century and still no Jesus, because Jesus never planned or promised to return.
“As we look, we find the events recorded (in Revelation), following on in the order predicted.” (Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer, p. 77.) These events which he listed were as follows:
1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. 1755 Lisbon earthquake
2. The Dark Day, 1780. New England's Dark Day
3. The Falling Stars, 1833. The Falling of the Stars
It is interesting to note that the great star-fall came on the night of 12 November, which is the birthday of Bahá’u’lláh.
Excerpts from: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Jesus did not say: And I shall send my angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and I shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other, because He was not referring to Himself. After all, Jesus finished His work so there was no reason to come down from heaven.
No, I have explained which ones I believe are true and which ones I believe are false and I have explained why I do not believe Jesus rose from the dead and I have supported my belief that Jesus is not going to return to earth with verses from the Bible. I do not even NEED any Baha'i Writings to prove that Jesus never promised to return, all I need is the Bible.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, it is your false hope that they were the exact words of Jesus, and most Christians concede to that very fact that what is in the gospels is not the exact words of Jesus.
Do We Have the Exact Words of Christ, or a Paraphrase?
Baha'is agree with what was concluded in the last paragraph of that Christian website above, that not having Jesus’ exact words is not a loss because God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements of what Jesus wanted to convey was preserved and communicated.
The Bahá'ís believe what is in the Bible to be true in substance. This does not mean that every word recorded in that Book is to be taken literally and treated as the authentic saying of a Prophet....
The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words
(9 August 1984 to an individual believer)
The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments
(From letters written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice)
Seminar Rules Out 80% of Words Attributed to Jesus : Religion: Provocative meeting of biblical scholars ends six years of voting on authenticity in the Gospels
THE REJECTED SAYINGS
The Jesus Seminar, a six-year project based in Sonoma to assess the historical authenticity of sayings attributed to Jesus, concluded that about half were words put into his mouth by Gospel authors and early believers in reflection of their own hopes and fears. Among the sayings rejected were the following:
John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.”
John 14:6: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
Mark 13:25, 30: (A series of apocalyptic sayings) “Then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in the clouds’ with great power and glory. . . . Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.”
Matthew 5:11: “Blessed are you when people revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.”
Mark 10:32-34: “See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be handed over to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death; then they will hand him over to the Gentiles; they will mock him, and spit upon him, and flog him, and kill him; and after three days he will rise again.”
No, it is not self serving because I have no dog in this fight, I mean it does not matter to me one way or another.
It is simply what Bible scholars have concluded after much research.
New Testament: Who Wrote the Gospels?
Just as the Old Testament chronicles the story of the Israelites in the millennium or so leading up to the birth of Jesus Christ, the New Testament records Jesus’s life, from his birth and teachings to his death and later resurrection, a narrative that forms the fundamental basis of Christianity. Beginning around 70 A.D., about four decades after Jesus’s crucifixion (according to the Bible), four anonymously written chronicles of his life emerged that would become central documents in the Christian faith. Named for Jesus’s most devoted earthly disciples, or apostles—Matthew, Mark, Luke and John—the four canonical Gospels were traditionally thought to be eyewitness accounts of Jesus’s life, death and resurrection.
But for more than a century, scholars have generally agreed that the Gospels, like many of the books of the New Testament, were not actually written by the people to whom they are attributed. In fact, it seems clear that the stories that form the basis of Christianity were first communicated orally, and passed down from generation to generation, before they were collected and written down.
Who Wrote the Bible? - HISTORY
Last edited:
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Is Jesus Christianity?: Jesus basically is fiction.
Why Trailblazer accepts Jesus (and not just Jesus but Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha, Mohammad also) is because she has her own prophet, Bahaollah, to sell. She has to make Bahaollah into a returning Jesus. Also, in some way or the other, she needs to quote the words from what is supposed to have been written by Bahaollah and translated by his great-grandson, Shoghi. She has to spread the word-maze of Bahaollah, technically prohibited in the forum as proselytization, out of which nothing intelligent can be discerned. Call them tablets as if they were ancient clay tablets of Sumerians and Accadians, and make simple English into 14th Century English with giveth, taketh, professeth, doeth, etc. to sound ancient. First Century clap-trap in Nineteenth Century. Otherwise she is not much enamored of Jesus. That is why she finds faults with the Jesus story.
Why Trailblazer accepts Jesus (and not just Jesus but Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha, Mohammad also) is because she has her own prophet, Bahaollah, to sell. She has to make Bahaollah into a returning Jesus. Also, in some way or the other, she needs to quote the words from what is supposed to have been written by Bahaollah and translated by his great-grandson, Shoghi. She has to spread the word-maze of Bahaollah, technically prohibited in the forum as proselytization, out of which nothing intelligent can be discerned. Call them tablets as if they were ancient clay tablets of Sumerians and Accadians, and make simple English into 14th Century English with giveth, taketh, professeth, doeth, etc. to sound ancient. First Century clap-trap in Nineteenth Century. Otherwise she is not much enamored of Jesus. That is why she finds faults with the Jesus story.
Last edited:
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is the funniest thing I have heard all year, but it is only March 7.
I do not find fault with Jesus, i only find fault with the fictitious stories that were written about Jesus, since they are not true.
All Bible scholar's concede to the fact that Jesus existed. I think some people want to deny that Jesus existed because they are afraid of what that might mean, if the Christian beliefs about Jesus were actually true, but since many of those beliefs are not true, they really have nothing to worry about.
"While billions of people believe Jesus of Nazareth was one of the most important figures in world history, many others reject the idea that he even existed at all. A 2015 survey conducted by the Church of England, for instance, found that 22 percent of adults in England did not believe Jesus was a real person.
Among scholars of the New Testament of the Christian Bible, though, there is little disagreement that he actually lived. Lawrence Mykytiuk, an associate professor of library science at Purdue University and author of a 2015 Biblical Archaeology Review article on the extra-biblical evidence of Jesus, notes that there was no debate about the issue in ancient times either. “Jewish rabbis who did not like Jesus or his followers accused him of being a magician and leading people astray,” he says, “but they never said he didn’t exist.”"
The Bible Says Jesus Was Real. What Other Proof Exists?
Colt
Well-Known Member
Your twisted revisionism of the Bible vs billions of Christians over the centuries that read the same scriptures and see what they plainly say. Pointless to try to wrestle you away from the bondage of self delusion.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Nothing funny there. I do not say that Jesus never existed. But he was just one of the many Jewish people who posed to be prophets and Messiahs. It is a recurring thing in Abrahamic religions and continues till today. That is what engendered Bahaollah and after him Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Anyone can claim to be a prophet / son / messenger / manifestation / mahdi chosen by Allah / God, since no one is required to give any proof. Their stories have been heavily garnished by themselves (take for example Bahaollah's vision of a 'heavenly maiden') or their followers.That is the funniest thing I have heard all year, but it is only March 7.
I do not find fault with Jesus, i only find fault with the fictitious stories that were written about Jesus, since they are not true.
Last edited:
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is a typical comment I get from Christians who cannot step up to bat and refute what I post from their own Bible.
Your misunderstandings concerning what the Bible actually means, along with billions of Christians over the centuries that read the same scriptures and cannot understand what they really mean, make it quite clear that it is pointless to try to wrestle you away from the bondage of self delusion.
You believe what you believe because you bought off on what Christianity teaches without question so you believe Jesus is the Only Way to God and that Christianity is the only true religion of God, which would mean that 70% of the people in the world who are not Christians are deluded and barred from God. This belief is not only illogical but it is highly arrogant and it is also an untenable belief since no just and loving God would allow 70% of the people in the world to be misguided and headed for hell. Christians cannot respond to this and still maintain that God is just and loving so they ignore my posts. The 'Jesus is the Only Way' Christian belief are too egregious to discuss any further. No other religion makes such a claim.
Last edited:
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
There is no proof, only evidence, and not anyone can provide evidence to back their claims as Baha'u'llah did.
Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
It may be more than delusion, it could be a profession.
profession
[ pruh-fesh-uhn ]
See synonyms for profession on Thesaurus.com
noun
a vocation requiring knowledge of some department of learning or science: the profession of teaching.Compare learned profession.
any vocation or business.
the body of persons engaged in an occupation or calling: to be respected by the medical profession.
the act of professing; avowal; a declaration, whether true or false: professions of dedication.
the declaration of belief in or acceptance of religion or a faith: the profession of Christianity.
a religion or faith professed.
Word-salad. I have already replied to this post. Do you think in 21st Century educated people will believe in prophecies and their fulfillment? For me, this is absolute foolishness, ignorance and superstition. I believe only retarded people do that. Your belief is different.
Last edited:
firedragon
Veteran Member
Irrelevant.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Irrelevant especially because there are no anti-Christ quotes in the Quran that attempt to undermine Christ.